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RE: Is magic worth it?

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11/22/2015 4:20:21   
NagisaXIkari
Member

Dwelling Dragonlord:
quote:

So here's an interesting question which puts the discussion of ending magic in a different perspective. 

"Would technology continue to work and exist?"


Don't need to be a Pyromancer to boil water and thus be one step closer to developing the steam engine.

_____________________________

I'll take the world on my own terms. I want disease but not the germs.
I want the moon to cling to me. So let your silence sing to me.
An endless endless symphony. Till all I lost instinctively returns.
DF  Post #: 26
11/22/2015 4:37:33   
Dark Lord Urmi
Member

there are beings that use power that cant be considered magic....without magic we are left defenseless to these forces but lets put that aside for now, Healing potions require magical ingredients these potions heal wounds and help against ailments without it you would have medieval medicine...so basically guaranteed death if you have so much as the common cold so there is plagues normal people cannot fight against without magic, so onto the next point since gnomes have tech their power would be seen as evil since its the only thing that defies the rose's warped ideas and a group very much like the rose or even the rose itself would say TECHNOLOGY IS EVIL KILL IT!!! and begin a genocide campaign against the gnomes and if the gnomes had legions of robots and a flying island well without magic the war wouldn't be favorable to the Neo rose. Take the Good with the bad people, magic is worth it. Besides we know what happens to a world with no magic we live in one....just about everyone in lore can harness magic not everyone has access to a nuke.

< Message edited by Dark Lord Urmi -- 11/22/2015 4:41:37 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 27
11/22/2015 5:41:47   
NagisaXIkari
Member

Apothecaries and alchemists could still do their thing with coming up with medicines via however people determine what plants won't give you a rash or worse.

And unless the anti-tech Rose conjures up a flying machine while being able to deal with their blatant hypocrisy, the gnomes on their flying island would be as safe as kittens. And through the invention of gunpowder or any other combustible munition, create anti-aircraft defences.
DF  Post #: 28
11/22/2015 5:51:13   
hidan_orochimaru
Member

Honestly,saying that magic is bad because it brought nothing but misery to the world is like saying,for example,sharp objects (knives,swords,saws....) are bad because villains use them to kill. And then getting rid of those objects forever and making life harder. (Bad example,but I think you got the point.)

Who's to say that relying on technology and science can't be bad either? We might just end up with a Terminator scenario,which already happened with the Cyklons in the Popsprocket saga.
DF AQW  Post #: 29
11/22/2015 6:39:52   
UltimateDoomKnight
Member

If magic is coming to an end, then the Hero and the other heroes of Lore will never be able to stop the villains who use it because villains are the only one the Rose cannot prevent to stop using magic.
I say that magic is definitely Worth it and it would be very foolish of you to forbidd it. The Rose will end nevertheless sooner or later and so will the rest of Lore if we don't use magic.
Ending magic means not only to end the bad part but the good as well. You MUST remember that villains are the only ones that have used magic to do bad things (sure there have been good people doing bad to but by mistake or ignorance) BUT there are others who tries to prevent it from happening BY using magic to do good!
Know also that even without magic there are those who can use knowledge, science and technology to do bad things while others uses it to prevent, for example, diseases from spreading or develop. To stop magic is to increase threats and dangers and to stop science, technology and knowledge increases threats and dangers.
Another thing, magic is just like the physical laws: it cannot be ended nor broken. Without them, we wouldn't exist.

< Message edited by UltimateDoomKnight -- 11/22/2015 7:03:04 >
Post #: 30
11/22/2015 11:16:12   
David the Wanderer
Legendary AK!


 Well, the question doesn't really have an answer in my opinion. Yes, magic can be used to do many great and good things, but it also has great destructive power. Magic is a double-edged sword, and very difficult to handle safely; even when people have no ill intent, there's still the risk of causing messes bigger than the ones you were trying to fix. Maybe magic ought to be regulated more, since it seems up until the Rose came into existence, mages in Greenguard were allowed to do as they wanted. The Rose is obviously too extremist in its actions and program, save a few people like Magus Neron who seem to be more cool-headed, and it has become an instrument of oppression rather than one for safety, and has to be either eliminated or reformed; however, the idea of a "magic police" isn't bad into itself. Having people and equipment that can deal with magic threats is good, since Lore, being a world that literally lives on magic, is filled with dangerous application of magic power.
Maybe without magic Lore would be safer, maybe not. We can't know because we have never seen a Lore without magic, and can't know if the good would outweigh the bad. As somebody once said, history isn't written with "but"s and "if"s. Saying that something would have happened differently if a small detail changed is an exercise in futility, since you will never know if your theories are right or wrong.

As others have stated ending magic in itself isn't the solution, though: evil people will always exist, and find new ways to cause pain to others. Magic going away won't stop the threats Lore must face, just change their nature. Not to add, since Lore's mana core is what keeps the planet alive, ending magic might very well result in the extinction of all of Lore's lifeforms. It's not viable. Magic is a part of Lore as much as air or water - it's something that you can't eliminate unless you want everybody to die.

One thing that popped up in my mind while writing this is worth mentioning, I believe: Magic can also stop progress. After all, what's the point in finding a way to, say, cure a certain illness if magic can already do it faster and better than any medicine the human mind can create? As some have said, it appears Lore has been stuck in the Middle Ages/Early Renaissance for much longer than what happened in the real world, and that might be a consequence of magic. A mage will always have an unfair advantage on people who can't use magic, since doing what might take a normal person years of training just takes a moment for a mage. I think it's something worth to think about.
DF AQW  Post #: 31
11/22/2015 11:50:10   
FriendOfAFriend
Member

It's not like the Rose are strong enough to totally annihilate magic on their own, anyways. Take us out of the picture, throw in a back to 80% power Seppy or something and they're dead.
Post #: 32
11/22/2015 15:38:31   
UltimateDoomKnight
Member

@David the Wanderer But no matter if you end magic or not, evil and destruction will still possess an infinite level of their abilities. It's only a matter of time to discover it. If magic ends then the equal number of possibilities will decrease for evil and good.
If magic is allowed to exist, then it will increase equal numbers of possibilities of evil and good. So no matter how you do it, it will still be just as much as a threat to end it as to allow it forever when it comes to evil. Besides, people are well trained to use magic, that's why there is no catastrophe occuring.
If you have magic, it will be much simpler to solve all kinds of problems. If you don't, then it will be far more difficult because you do not have the possibility to do so, knowledge will decrease and time will be short.

< Message edited by UltimateDoomKnight -- 11/22/2015 15:43:48 >
Post #: 33
11/22/2015 16:57:21   
rendalith
Member
 

 Because our heroes live in a magical world, they face magical threats. If the world were not magical, they would then face mundane threats.

The way I see it, changing the fabric of that reality wouldn't change the fact that conflict would still exist.

So, to answer the original question. Is magic worth it? Yes. I'd rather face a fire-breathing dragon than a shell-spewing tank.
DF  Post #: 34
11/22/2015 23:17:44   
NagisaXIkari
Member

That depends on your definition of mundane. If there were no magic in the world, villains would have to conjure up an army either through charisma or currency. And as most any dictator can demonstrate, they are far from mundane in the actions they further.
DF  Post #: 35
11/22/2015 23:30:21   
LouisCyphere
Member

If DF Lore become "magicless" then we would go to a point where DF would be similar to MQ. Technology would run the lives of people but problems will still exist. Technology and Magic are simply the mediums through which people would do evil things. So the better solution is to get rid of evil people. As Sofist would say!

quote:

EVIL!!
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 36
11/23/2015 7:59:48   
Shadows Morgenstern
Member

I think the main problem with getting rid of magic would be the, uh, Mana Core that is the core of the planet.

Just realised no more Ashendal zone which would have explained a lot of these sort of things...

_____________________________

Your signature has been removed because Photobucket replaced it
with a third-party hosting notice that was too large for the forums.
DF  Post #: 37
11/23/2015 16:24:14   
NagisaXIkari
Member

Not necessarily. If the Ashendale NPC is off limits, someone else could be done up to take his place.
DF  Post #: 38
11/23/2015 16:55:29   
coldmonkey
Member

Isn't there a lack of PC/Iconic NPC tier uh, NPC mages in the game? Artix/Zhoom/Rolith tier NPC mages, basically. There's seems to be a gap between, I don't know, Hansa and Xan tier mages? Warlic and Nythera are on a completely other level than most NPCs (or any PC), as is Cysero I believe. There's Tomix, if Soulweavers count as mages, but Roirr and Vaal are also on a whole other level. Noxus, as enemies go. Vayle, forgot about her. Zorbak? Celestia's replacement?
AQ DF  Post #: 39
11/23/2015 20:03:56   
Shadows Morgenstern
Member

quote:

Celestia's replacement?


And now we wait for Womba.
DF  Post #: 40
11/24/2015 0:39:21   
elite dark slayer
Member

Not EVERY villain was magical. Dr. Voltabolt. My point is, if there were no magic, non-magical villains would arise.
DF MQ AQW  Post #: 41
11/24/2015 0:50:54   
UltimateDoomKnight
Member

Nevertheless, it would still be pretty dangerous and it's easier if there is magic around since it can do things what non-magical creatures cannot which is more useful.
Post #: 42
11/24/2015 0:52:16   
Immortal God
Member

Nothing is ever so black and white. We really dont get to see what happens with magic unless something catastrophic is happening that requires us to step in. We only see the extremes of it all. Super villains threatening to take over and destroy everything with magic and then the hero stepping in to stop it. We dont really see much of its usefulness in peoples everyday lives. Nor are we made of up magic like other creatures in the game that couldnt survive without it. For members of the rose I bet if they were actually made of magic and would be dead without it their outlook might be a little different.

Besides that its never that simple. Get rid of magic and then there will just be something else evil uses. It might even be something useful and much needed like magic. And then what? Would there be another extremist faction to go against whatever that next thing is?
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 43
11/24/2015 1:04:34   
UltimateDoomKnight
Member

Firstly, magic can litteraly do anything compared to a World without it. Take a look, the Hero could have died (like any other man who gets burned up) when fighting Xan with the Pyronomicon but survived thanks to Twilly's healing abilities and there are strong monsters and titans that can destroy Towns which the Hero can prevent from happening with his dragon. We CAN see it and it is better if we seek to understand it and having an ensured prediction rather than being foolish enough to risk and assuming the worst.
Secondly, without magic there is less choice of options to stop a threat from which might require a lot more sacrifices and is more relying on the chance instead of actually knowing. No matter what you do, the threat will be equally gruesome. The difference is that if you do have magic you will have a greater chance for survival than a World without it.

< Message edited by UltimateDoomKnight -- 11/24/2015 1:14:40 >
Post #: 44
11/24/2015 2:12:39   
verypeeved!
Member

@immortal so in other words... evil always finds a way
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 45
11/24/2015 2:37:20   
UltimateDoomKnight
Member

@verypeeved! So does good, buddy, which explains the eternal war between these two alignments.

< Message edited by UltimateDoomKnight -- 11/24/2015 3:22:06 >
Post #: 46
11/25/2015 9:36:16   
Veral77
Member

First of all, alignment-based wars are the epitome of idiocy. The individual alignments of most realistic, functional armies are pretty variant. That being said, people of different personalities but similar principles are more likely to work together than people of different principles but similar personalities. FYI, good and evil are personality alignments, while lawful and chaotic are principle alignments. In other words, in a realistic scenario, a lawful good person has a higher chance of working with a lawful evil person than a chaotic good person. That's why good cop, bad cop is a thing. That's why the "epic battle of good vs. evil" is a childish fairy tale. Order vs. chaos is more realistic.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 47
11/25/2015 10:45:07   
Sanani
Member

No matter how people would try. Magic can't stop exist.
Magic swim throught ley-lines, its like fuel of world. Without magic it would be more disaster. Complete imbalance, destruction of world itself.
All have good and bad sides. Even life, (In our world there isn't magic but theres still criminals).
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 48
11/25/2015 11:08:20   
gakorogirl
Member

I agree with the people in this thread saying that if there's a way to cause trouble, people are going to figure it out. Doesn't matter if there's magic or not.

Edited to delete comment to deleted post. ~San Robin

< Message edited by San Robin -- 11/25/2015 11:14:06 >
DF AQW  Post #: 49
11/25/2015 11:14:14   
Azan
Member

Throwing in my two cents, I agree with what gakorogirl said. Magic is just the tool villains use to cause trouble, not the problem in itself. Now it would be more problematic if all magic could do was harm (such as guns), but magic also has a good side (healing is one, I guess you can use it for construction, agriculture, etc., though I don't think we have seen it yet) and is actually very helpful in lots of domains. Lore should probably have some kind of Chart listing all the good and allowed uses of magic and all the bad and illegal ones that should be punished by some kind of "magic police", which is what the Rose should be in my opinion. It probably would not be ideal either, but it'd be a better ideology at least than "all magic is bad! Destroy all magic!"

Self-edit: edited out reference to deleted discussion.

< Message edited by Azan -- 11/25/2015 11:17:30 >
Post #: 50
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