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RE: What will the plot be like?

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12/19/2015 15:41:26   
LyRein
Member

@above

Alteon murdered his way to the throne, gave the Rose power and did not bother to stop the poor/rich caste system in Swordhaven so...

I think everyone is tired of Drakath being a punch-bag villain i'll-get-you-next-time-hero.

i don't think people would just give him the throne.
he would have to go through a lot to earn it.

but we do think he can be good this game :]
he just has so much potential in character development.

if you think about it he might not have grown up to be a whiny spoiled brat
had alteon took care of him himself (drakky was only 4-6 at that time he could easily have been brought to the good side).

also you cannot use DF slugwrath as a basis for slugwrath in this game.


< Message edited by LyRein -- 12/19/2015 15:48:06 >
Post #: 101
12/19/2015 15:49:23   
Faerdin
Rune Knight
quote:

df drakath was made so DF players can hate him

DragonFable's interpretation of Drakath was intended to provide the player with a rival. Where Sepulchure was our distant and ultimate final opponent, the "final boss" that we couldn't handle yet, Drakath was our first real obstacle in dealing with the Shadowscythe -- and he played the part very well until his gradual slip into the background after the Energy Orb Saga. He was abrasive, arrogant, and downright rude not only to us, but to the people who worked alongside him -- especially if he was of higher authority than said people -- and in so doing was intended to be a despicable character. But it would be unfair to say that DragonFable's Drakath was made explicitly to be hated.

He was the Prince Zuko of DragonFable. Toward the beginning of the game, he was a worthy adversary for the Hero and a more tangible extension of the forces at work in Lore. We eventually reached a point where the Hero's power superseded his so clearly that he was relegated to the background for the remainder of Book One, and it gradually became more and more apparent that Drakath was a bit of an oaf, but that only lead us not to expect...

spoiler:

... him doing something so bold as stabbing Sepulchure in the back with his own sword to steal the Ultimate Orb.

Were AQ3D to borrow from any one game's interpretation of Drakath, I would be hoping for DragonFable. AQWorlds' Chaos Lord was a direct succession to DragonFable's take on him (Thus making it that much more shocking at the start on the game to discover that not only is the main villain Drakath, but OMG HE ONE-SHOT ALTEON AND SEPULCHURE) and though the enemy originated from AdventureQuest, as far as I am able to tell (Apologies if my limited experience with AQ impedes me here), DragonFable dedicated a bit more screen time to him.

Make him a little more complex, maybe by providing more context on King Slugwrath's rule? I would be all for that. But if Drakath were ever introduced to AQ3D as a totally unrecognizable and humorless character, I would have to wonder why this character really needed to be Drakath in the first place.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 102
12/19/2015 15:53:11   
LyRein
Member

@above

No he was just salty.

DF Drakath is just pre-AQW Drakath, there's nothing special about him.
AQ3D Drakath should be post-AQW Drakath then.

we want to see a Drakath who through his past wants to make a better future.
not the other way around.

quote:

But if Drakath were ever introduced to AQ3D as a totally unrecognizable and humorless character


how does he become unrecognizable through this?
Post #: 103
12/19/2015 16:00:01   
Rezilia
Member

From what little we know from the games, Slugwrath allied with tons of monsters and used them to hold his reign, thereby oppressing humans.

When I think of that, it sounds a bit...strange.

Looking at DF Book 3, most people in and around Swordhaven declare most magical creatures to be monsters. All evidence suggests that Drakath's mother was a dragon with human form (thus making Drakath like Nythera). The "popular rule" Alteon obtained would have been due to him slaying Slugwrath's subjects and making humans the only rulers of the land. Ironically enough, his daughter cares about those creatures.

From this, it seems to me like the humans under Alteon would jump at any chance to purge the world of magical creatures, something that explains their love of the Rose. It's highly possible that their distaste of those creatures would have led the people to call Slugwrath a tyrant for favoring them.

What if Slugwrath wasn't really evil but rather helped the "monsters" oppressed by humans regain their territory, and the humans criticized him for it?

That seems like a much more realistic narrative.
DF AQW  Post #: 104
12/19/2015 16:05:01   
LyRein
Member

@above

actually explains a lot about MoM as-well
Post #: 105
12/19/2015 16:08:45   
Rezilia
Member

You mean if MoM was a dragon that could obtain human form?

I was actually talking about the DF Drakath, but you made a good point - it would certainly explain how she could have obtained that much power. So natural-born chaos dragon?
DF AQW  Post #: 106
12/19/2015 16:14:41   
LyRein
Member

@above

I mean if MoM became human to give birth to Drakath because she loved Slugwrath for preserving her "children".
She gave him a necklace to pass down to Drakath.
When Drakath absorbs the orbs and becomes a Dragon but dies from the Hero, the necklace allows MoM to manipulate him into Chaos.

It's actually really creepy if you think about it.

I still want to know what Slugwrath's true name is.
The one that summons terrible evils.

This turned into a conspiracy theory really fast.


< Message edited by LyRein -- 12/19/2015 16:18:01 >
Post #: 107
12/19/2015 16:32:47   
Faerdin
Rune Knight


 @LyRein: Because in every interpretation of Drakath throughout AE's multiverse, Drakath has been an antagonist. Being good is so intrinsically opposed to the core of his character than even AQWorlds' Mirror Realm defines "goodness" as being his opposite (He's the Champion of Order specifically, but he is basically "Champion of Goodness"). It would make little sense for Drakath to be molded into a sympathetic character right out from the gate. I might be able to understand a late-story reversal that causes him to question his own motivations and the legacy of his father, but transforming him into a character that could be likened to Stannis or Jaime would require a lot of change -- and immediate change as well.

Stannis and Jaime worked because they were the lesser evils amidst people as notoriously awful as Tywin Lannister and Roose Bolton -- they were written to be worthy of some measure of sympathy, especially in relation to the more despicable characters that were the only other alternatives. But Drakath? There is little that can be done to make players more empathetic toward Drakath's claim to the throne -- not without writing Swordhaven to be flawed a la Book 3 DragonFable.

@ckdragonck: That conclusion depends on stealing canon from both DragonFable and AQWorlds and a certain number of assumptions to really make it work. There is no evidence to suggest that DragonFable's King Slugwrath had any affiliation with magical creatures to hold his position of power, for example. Not to mention it would offer Drakath ample opportunity to be a sympathetic figure at the cost of making Swordhaven's citizens unrepentantly evil.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 108
12/19/2015 16:59:21   
Rezilia
Member

quote:

at the cost of making Swordhaven's citizens unrepentantly evil


But Swordhaven's citizens are unrepentantly evil. They're basically the human equivalent of high elves - they look good and pretty at first glance until you realize they're soulless conquerors. They even subjugate their own.

------

Order =/= Goodness. Order = Balance. In AQW, Balance/Order = Good + Evil. Chaos = Imbalance.

Alteon has been and forever will be Balanced. He isn't Good. By the same vein, Drakath has never truly been Evil and he ended up being Imbalanced.

Order and Good are not the same. You can enforce rules under an iron boot and have Order, giving in neither to Good nor Evil. In the same vein, you can use Chaos to destroy a tyrannical period of Order and bring liberty to all.

Chaos isn't Evil. Order isn't Good.
DF AQW  Post #: 109
12/19/2015 17:12:29   
Caststarter
Member

And who was the highest representative of good in the world and even was the one who recruit you on the side of good? And who was the one who still wanted to cause destruction which is undoubtedly evil no matter how you look at it? Where said one still wanted to rule? Since by all regards based on how they were portrayed... good and evil was represented. And by the way. The truce was still meant to be temporary. Where when after Drakath was defeated, everything will go on as usual- Good vs Evil.

And when you have the chance... I would love to see how you came to these conclusions. I am very interested on how you got them...

Also. In terms of making Drakath good? Faerdin hinted at this so I think it should be said directly. What you are basically saying is making an entirely different character, barely recognizable outside of name. Oh and I doubt he will gain anyone's favor as well. Why? He has shown how poor of a swordsman he is (Look at DF animations, it is rather clear he does not know how to properly use the blade considering how wide open he leaves himself) and how he has proven in no way to know to speak about actual politics.

Being different for the sake of being different is never a good idea, that needs to be said though.
DF  Post #: 110
12/19/2015 17:17:13   
Faerdin
Rune Knight


 Have the events of AQWorlds painted Swordhaven's people so harshly? Because all that is known in DragonFable as of yet is that The Rose has attained power in Swordhaven. The Rose exploited the rampant fear of magic that pervaded much of the world following the Great Darkness and the Elemental Dissonance -- all they want is the security to live their own lives without fear. All else is left to speculation at this point since we haven't personally visited Swordhaven yet.

And yes. Order does not equate to goodness, nor does chaos equate to evil. But answer me this: did the Mirror Realm Drakath ever do anything questionable? Did he ever kneel to someone as undeniably evil as Sepulchure, betray said villain to pursue his own, equally detestable goals, and attempt to force his way into getting what he wanted by turning into a big, scary, world destroying dragon?

What wrongs has King Alteon perpetrated aside from (Possibly, maybe) allowing The Rose to occupy and work within Swordhaven?
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 111
12/19/2015 17:40:02   
deathlord45
Member

From what I can gather of a mixture. Aleton was titled "the Balanced" because he was a fair and just ruler as opposed to to Slugwrath before him who was a tyrant.

On the topic of making Drakath part of the Good alignment, it'd would defeat the purpose of the character. In each of the games he was never meant to be on our side, it's a defining part of his characterization through out the games. Him being an unsympathetic character in DF is part of what made him memorable. Making him a hero or even an anti-hero would make him not as memorable and not as good of a character imo.

On the topic of Good, Evil, Order and Chaos.

Balance != Order
Chaos != Imbalance

Ever. Balance implies that everything is equal, the Good, the Evil, the Order, the Chaos, etc. Otherwise things are Imbalanced if things are even the slightest bit out of equality.


P.S.
In most programming languages != means "not equal to"
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 112
12/19/2015 17:50:05   
speedmeteor101
Member

Hold your horses, guys! Cool down. The point here was not to turn a signature character with a definite role into something else. It was just to provide an example of what a dynamic character is and illustrate the kind of plot twists and story the game would need to mature past it's former 'incarnations' for a lack of better words. If you wouldn't do that to Drakath, fine. Do it to any character you please. But we just want to see something change about him to make him interesting if he 'reincarnates' into this form of Lore.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 113
12/19/2015 18:40:21   
LyRein
Member

Forums decided to lag out and delete my beautiful essay.

RETRY

quote:

Have the events of AQWorlds painted Swordhaven's people so harshly?


We don't meet them so no.

quote:

What wrongs has King Alteon perpetrated aside from (Possibly, maybe) allowing The Rose to occupy and work within Swordhaven?


Let Valen walk out Swordhaven in full Doomknight armour knowing fully well the consequences
Killing a man in-front of his son to claim a kingdom (no better than Slugwrath)
Did not raise that son and instead let him grow up to be a salty bandit
Attempted to get rid of that bandit for trying to rebel against the throne (even though that's exactly what he did himself)
Forced his daughter to go rogue and hide her identity
Robina had REAL daddy issues in AQ
Organized an arena to the death to allow his daughter to find a suitable husband
Did not create a democracy
Which in turn caused a riot (eldest daughter died, her husband begins to fight Robina over the throne, people are dying without a king, Drakath destroyed Swordhaven)
Did not try to stop the poor/rich caste system
Did not tell Artix about his Darkness powers when he REALLY needed them (like when he was about to die)
Filled one of his best commander' minds with propaganda about Evil telling him as he grows up to destroy it, then creates the alliance which makes the commander an emotional wreck, that same commander turns to Chaos to try to end Evil which he was taught to do
He is then is ordered to death by the same man who told him to destroy Evil.

Alteon is not a GOOD king
He is a balanced/orderly king, a gray character.

A lot of people disagree with me because i'm potentially "ruining DF Drakath"

The discussion right now is how to stop making Drakath a one-dimensional, i'll-get-you-next-time salty character.
We want him, in AQ3D, to actually use politics, be a good swordsman and question his actions and motives.

If you were constantly put down by the very person (Hero) you admired as a kid, forced to grow up in poor conditions, starving and struggling, watched your only family member die in-front of you, had only manipulative and heartless people to turn to for help but knew there was another way, a better future, i'm pretty sure you would choose that other way.

This is NOT about DF Drakath
This is about AQ3D Drakath


< Message edited by LyRein -- 12/19/2015 18:42:03 >
Post #: 114
12/19/2015 19:31:50   
speedmeteor101
Member

See guys, it's not about making him the good guy. It's about making him less shallow; more than a 1 dimensional character. They need to do this anyways, and especially if they're gonna bring Vaxen back into the game. And what's good is we know they are capable of this. If they got u guys to argue this long about King Alteon, you know this has some serious potential. So what @LyRein, @ckDragon, and I are most-likey saying (in the event that we all agree) is that they need more in-depth characters to make a better story. [Remember this is a new game] And some times to do this, these characters, locations, and what ever else may have to sway a little bit off their norm and break some continuities (and possibly ruin the nostalgia, for some) in order to make this more REAL.

BTW- This was pulled off well with some characters in the other games. The sad part about it is it only happens with new characters; Tomix in DF never appeared in AQc to my knowledge. I don't really remember mention of Alteon in DF until he was established in AQW except in frostval waay bak in 2006. The two characters I mentioned here were the more multi-dimensional characters of their games but they were not signature or anything, and I feel that's what made or allowed them to be so special.

But technically, you could say that alteon did this development from df to aqw that we are looking for in AQ3D. It's just his insignificance in DF makes it a sort of 'fake' transformation /evolution. Sort of like Vaxen will be. Taking a bigger char, would take a lot of gut and would show a lot growing-up done by AE.

I hope this helps u understand, and hopefully a dev could see this and tell us what he [or she] thinks.



< Message edited by speedmeteor101 -- 12/19/2015 19:35:50 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 115
12/20/2015 1:57:44   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 It is better for AQ3D to expand on new characters than to retell the story of old ones. AQW has poor character development in general, but its retelling of old characters' stories has been downright lackluster. Tomix, Xan, Zhoom and even Cysero spring to mind. Beleen is an example of a new character done right - take a few generic characteristics (eccentricity, happy-go-lucky, annoys certain NPCs) that have already been embodied in an old character (Cysero) and expand them in a new and original way, instead of repeating old jokes and stories with old characters, which would alienate veterans. Writers, subconsciously or otherwise, will definitely feel constrained by existing characters' backstories when attempting to inject new life into them, especially when they are already well-developed. I say that we use the flagship NPCs for initial playing experience and fun filler quests, and leave the main storyline to new ones.

< Message edited by Silver Sky Magician -- 12/20/2015 1:58:29 >
Post #: 116
12/20/2015 3:13:11   
Faerdin
Rune Knight


 @LyRein: I do not have time to reply as in depth as I would like to your post (Thank you for taking the time to write it), but these parts in particular I take issue with:

quote:

Did not create a democracy
Which in turn caused a riot (eldest daughter died, her husband begins to fight Robina over the throne, people are dying without a king, Drakath destroyed Swordhaven)

If anything, it sounds as though this goes against strictly established canon -- in DragonFable's case at least. In DragonFable, Sir Alteon was a war hero -- a man of the people -- who rejected the crown and only accepted it with great reluctance and with the urging of the people he had been fighting for. In regards to the power at play during Slugwrath's fall, Sir Alteon was nothing but noble and well intentioned.

quote:

The discussion right now is how to stop making Drakath a one-dimensional, i'll-get-you-next-time salty character.
We want him, in AQ3D, to actually use politics, be a good swordsman and question his actions and motives.

I totally respect the prospect of making Drakath a more three-dimensional character -- a more complex character as I had mentioned in my post. But there has to be a way to write Drakath with a touch more complexity without abandoning the core of his character -- that of being a spoiled and rotten tempered prince. Otherwise, there is little point in naming the character "Drakath" to begin with, as the character created would be entirely new as opposed to a more evolved interpretation. Every single Artix Entertainment game thus far has written Drakath as an antagonist, and to write him any differently is what would truly alienate veteran AE players.

@SSM: I would agree that the focus on AQ3D's story on new characters -- maybe with a reference or minor involvement from substantial, old-AE NPCs like Xan, Akriloth, Drakath, etc. -- might be the better path to take by this point.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 117
12/20/2015 4:14:15   
megakyle777
Member

I feel like there's a good compromisee here: have him start off the game as the evil jerk we all know and love but have him develop as a character and when the time comes he makes the right choice. I mean it can work: keep in mind for jamie lannister we are introduced to the guy as he pushes a kid out a 5 story window window while... talking to a member of family. And yet by book 5 you like the guy. If he starts off as the same jerk we all know and love but eventually DEVELOPS into a good person instead, it's still Drakath but one who made a different choice.
DF  Post #: 118
12/20/2015 8:01:06   
LyRein
Member

@above

quote:

I mean it can work: keep in mind for jamie lannister we are introduced to the guy as he pushes a kid out a 5 story window window while... talking to a member of family. And yet by book 5 you like the guy. If he starts off as the same jerk we all know and love but eventually DEVELOPS into a good person instead, it's still Drakath but one who made a different choice.


this is what i wanted to say

but people usually ignore this part
quote:

If he starts off as the same jerk we all know and love but eventually DEVELOPS into a good person instead


that's why i was to scared in-case i started another argument.

@Faerdin

at his core

Drakath in AQ we don't even know anything about him except he's a Dragon

Drakath in DF which is the rotten prince you're talking about

Drakath in AQW is really complicated. You see his Kid version in one event and he's REALLY nice and says he can't wait to grow up, be a hero and save the people. When the Hero [spoiler alert] "dies" at his hands he retells his past and how he ended up like this, and he starts off as a lovely kid who wants to be a good king to the people and then develops into a rotten prince because of his past.

He's also a pretty great villain and when a few.. not saying any names.. Chaos Lords turn on him, he gets up his throne and finishes our job himself.

So as you see, at his core he is a boy who is lost.

He wanted to do good in the world (probably would've made a good King if Alteon took him in) but because he was left on his own to fight the world as a child, had no loved ones to turn to for help, had no fatherly figures except Sepulchure, was manipulated and used for other people' purposes, always failed at the hands of a Hero (which is who he looked up to) he grew up into a rotten guy.

In this same way he can develop into a better person.


< Message edited by LyRein -- 12/20/2015 8:10:48 >
Post #: 119
12/20/2015 9:54:46   
speedmeteor101
Member

Those who don't understand @LyRein right now, lemme explain. You sort of get the point but you're not on the $money$. We're not saying, "bring these good ole classic characters back into the game and change them in big ways. EVEN if it means you can't relate to him as a veteran." We're saying "if you bring the classic 1-dimesional characters back into the game, give them some seeeerious character development or don't give them any significance in the game whatsoever."

@Silver Sky Magician - We are basically saying the same things as you. I take it you're saying don't bring back many oldees except the essentials so that the new characters can develop and we won't have to worry the effects of them being changed.
LyRein and I are saying don't bring back many oldees unless you are planning on giving a lot of change to one. We still agree with you, but we were giving the benefit of the doubt to old ones.

quote:

I say that we use the flagship NPCs for initial playing experience and fun filler quests, and leave the main storyline to new ones.
This is the idea, that we'd had this whole time but it came up so much earlier, that I don't think many people got it. If the characters can't change, give them a side quest that you get from exploring randomly. Like earlier this dude said "I think it would be great if the story started with Akriloth in the fire war." Obviously, the rest of the world said no, but we said it would be okay to have that battle with akriloth redone and then have a message after saying, "play the full adventure in DragonFable" or something like they did with the ArchKnight. That's what would work with the things that can't change. You go off of the path and just happen to run into an NPC from an old game and do some quests that aren't significant to the story at all. That is the only way we should see the reappearance of old characters.

@Megakyle basically gave another example of what we were explaining. Just a less specific example. Earlier, we said he starts off as a bandit who hates everybody then grows closer to robina and is slowly changed to a semi-good guy and some how looses even though he wins. [i said he dies in the final battle and makes robina cry, or has one kid and becomes odysseus]. What you said was the first part: Start him off as the guy we know him to be THEN CHANGEM. that's exactly what we are saying about Drakath, Vaxen especially, and any other player we could try and bring back from another game.


@faerdin
quote:

I totally respect the prospect of making Drakath a more three-dimensional character -- a more complex character as I had mentioned in my post. But there has to be a way to write Drakath with a touch more complexity without abandoning the core of his character -- that of being a spoiled and rotten tempered prince. Otherwise, there is little point in naming the character "Drakath" to begin with, as the character created would be entirely new as opposed to a more evolved interpretation. Every single Artix Entertainment game thus far has written Drakath as an antagonist, and to write him any differently is what would truly alienate veteran AE players.


This is the part of your argument where we see you kind of understand what we're saying. Magakyle really addressed you here, but he only said a more specific version of what we said the whole time. He can keep the 'core,' if he comes back, he needs to change in some way. Not necessarily being good. For all we care, he can fall in love with Robina and try to get her to 'join the dark side' and then the hero stops him from choking her like what happens in start wars. (That AE's kind, joke anyways). That kinda thing. Keep him evil but parter him upp with robina. Let him be the same 'mean' person but he starts to do morally correct things. Just some change or throw him out. He can keep one part of his character that's signature so veterans aren't "alienated" but the rest of him should significantly change over the course of time in the game. [personally, I get it, the alienated part, but it's not that alienating if done well]

< Message edited by speedmeteor101 -- 12/20/2015 10:42:55 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 120
12/20/2015 14:23:38   
Faerdin
Rune Knight


 @speedmeteor101: There is no misunderstanding here -- we are all very glad for the prospect of change. The problem, I think, is that I would like to see Drakath better developed as a villain where you and LyRein really want to see Drakath, if not become good, at least become an antihero to some extent -- and I don't really feel like it's necessary for him. A character can be nuanced and three dimensional and still be a bad person who does bad things.

Speaking in terms of ASoIaF, I would want Drakath less on the Jaime/Stannis side of the scale and more on the Tywin side. Tywin was also an emotionally complex and very interesting character -- but the distinction between him and characters like Jaime Lannister is that Tywin was totally unapologetic in his actions and painted from the start as an antagonist to many characters of the story, whether you were reading from the perspective of Tyrion or Catelyn.

spoiler:

Jaime crippled Bran. Tywin orchestrated the Red Wedding and tried to ruin the life of his own son because he blames her death on him.


< Message edited by Faerdin -- 12/20/2015 22:22:43 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 121
12/20/2015 15:23:42   
speedmeteor101
Member

Well then we're clear. You misunderstood us, though, I'll take blame for it as far as "the problem" goes. It's not that we wanted him to change to be good. I only used that as an example because it was already flying around the forums half way as a joke but we saw it could seriously have potential. We were not saying we "want to see Drakath, if not become good, at least become an antihero" and I'm sorry if I got that across as a point. I completely agree that a character can be nuanced and three dimensional and still be a bad person who does bad things. He can still be a villain, we support that. We just at least want to see a person and better/evolving story behind him... a real and possibly changing motive to do what he does. It doesn't matter how he develops but that he develops.

So actually there was no problem here- The misunderstanding, I think, was that we got the wrong message across here and I got you to focus on how Drakath could develop as a character rather than if he does, and I guess I had you misunderstand what we wanted. Like I said before, we don't necessarily want him to be good. We do, however, want to see a true change within the character, though, as you, yourself support. So that's cleared up. I'm glad we all seem to speak the same language, here, now!

< Message edited by speedmeteor101 -- 12/20/2015 15:31:23 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 122
12/20/2015 15:40:58   
LyRein
Member

@Faerdin

Difference is Tywin lived in a world where the weak died off and only the strong could survive.
He did all those things to ensure his family lived.
(He was said to be pretty good when his wife was around and you see how he talks with Arya).

Drakath on the other hand has literally nothing to fight for and really just wants to destroy Lore over one throne.

Drakath if he was to be like Tywin would need something to protect.
Which he has nothing of.

Drakath also started off as a good guy, as opposed to Tywin who was always like that.

So it's either Drakath becomes the villain in the Hero and friends' eyes but the hero in other people' eyes.
Or he remains a spoiled one dimensional prince.

EDIT
That would be a pretty good scenario.
Drakath's development also develops the Hero

He/She has to decide what's truly evil and good
Drakath has to question his actions and motives.

On-top of this they hate each-other.
I'd also like Drakath to keep up with the Hero in terms of skill, because it can be symbolic and add more to the story.


< Message edited by LyRein -- 12/20/2015 15:44:53 >
Post #: 123
12/20/2015 16:31:00   
speedmeteor101
Member

So long story short, this needs deeper stuff and multiple perspectives.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 124
12/21/2015 8:30:25   
LyRein
Member

@above

probably never going to happen since the main villain is called Grimsbane

like who came up with that name?
Post #: 125
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