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Juggernaut Mode

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12/14/2016 17:49:03   
Lord Machaar
Member

Seems like the new fix has made juggernaut battle mode, just like any other NPC battle mode and not an actual PVP battle mode. It is also easy to win juggs with this fix, and anything that is "easy" and "reptitive" to ED players, is a subject to botting.

Since the game do not have botting counter-measures, then it is better to count jugg battles where both opponents are NPCs into regular NPC wins and not actual juggernaut wins. Jugg battles where the juggernaut faces at least 1 player can count though.
Other friendly fix is, actually making juggernaut battles harder, and NPCs tougher, to put up a competition with the jugger.
Maybe even make juggernaut legendary bosses battles (Not super long battles where the NPCs have 15k - 20k, but short battles with tougher/smarter NPCs that make this legendary battle mode more entertaining and competitive).

We all know jugg botting will be a trend soon, especially at high levels, so I guess it's better to stop it before it even starts, and before personal/faction jugg all-time lbs lose their credibility.


Not saying that people weren't using alts to win juggs before (Many did and many got banned and perma banned because of that), but at least, and what's beautiful about that, it was detectable. If you find a level 40 player with more than 50 jugg win in a given day, then there is a high chance such player has alted/botted juggs.
MQ Epic  Post #: 1
12/15/2016 16:30:26   
Stonehawk
Member

I'm disappointed that my suggestion wasn't fully listened and brought up that problem. When I suggested NPCs on PVP, I think I mentioned that the players searching could choose between adding a NPC or not in the battle for a faster matching. Second, I think a PvP battle should have at least one player on both sides, otherwise it should count as NPC wins, not 2 vs 2 or juggernaut. So, to fix this, I suggest that all kinds of battle should have at least one real player on each side.

Even if NPCs are smarter, they can't use shields or drain energy, so a player on the same team will be able to use some strategy in game by buffing the NPC, protecting him or anything. Really, I wasn't expecting 2 NPCs on juggernaut. Disappointing. Now Juggernaut records are messed aswell.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 2
12/15/2016 17:19:36   
shadow.bane
Member

@Machaar so basically what you are saying is that all players are botting now if u haven't looked at juggernaut lb lately xD i mean some have 200 + and factions have 1000 + are all those botting ? :O

i do agree on one point u made tho... have more competitive npcs to fight with maybe legendary ones as u suggested.

< Message edited by shadow.bane -- 12/15/2016 17:26:34 >

_____________________________

Bane Hallow The Last Shadow Fiend.
AQW Epic  Post #: 3
12/15/2016 19:02:06   
Lord Machaar
Member

quote:

Even if NPCs are smarter, they can't use shields or drain energy, so a player on the same team will be able to use some strategy in game by buffing the NPC, protecting him or anything. Really, I wasn't expecting 2 NPCs on juggernaut. Disappointing. Now Juggernaut records are messed aswell.

True.


It's the first day and everyone is still excited about it. All wins are legit. Once it gets old, boring and repetitive, you will see players asking for a TM botting build that kills the combo Valestra-Valestra in jugg battles within 8 turns.
Keeping jugg this way will be unfair to all legit factions who will try to win champs, since there will be endless bots to make jugg just like any other NPC battle mode. Worst thing is, and unlike 1vs1, botters can't be caught nor detected.
Just like how people started making 4-5 turns for all farmable NPCs to make botting them even easier, same thing will happen in jugg, since ED is full of botting-masters. If NPCs were smarter and unpredictable, botting wouldn't have existed, or at least had this big impact on the game. If devs are trying to make an AQW 2.0 out of ED, at least make it a better version, not a worst one.

Devs should be smart and not think below their nose. That's what happened when they launched legendary ranks. On short term, majortiy of ideas are flawless, on the long term, majority of ideas become major problems. They need to have a bigger view of the future, they aren't players with limited thinking abilities to see below their nose, they should know better and act better, it has been 7-8 years in this field, so they must have learned something from these years.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 12/15/2016 19:09:12 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 4
12/15/2016 19:23:11   
Alphaeus
Member
 

 I've played Jugg on and off for a few years now. It used to be that you had to be really good to be a Jugg. Definitely not true now.

I played Jugg three times today and then quit because I wasn't on here to play against NPCs...I was here to do PvP.

But guess what?

Because Jugg has been screwed up now, so has 2v2 mode for the lower levels.

I primarily play now with a lvl 29 char. Every single battle I tried to do in 2v2 ended up being me + NPC vs Jugg. Every single one.

Sure, I strategized and won two out of three, but I hated playing with the NPCs, and I missed ACTUAL 2v2, which this Jugg set up has pretty much obliterated at that level.

I had a good solid Jugg build before...now I don't even want to bother playing Jugg because there is literally not a single battle I cannot win. LITERALLY.

This is simply a terrible development in the game.

As for botting? Heck, with my current build I'm using the same exact moves every single battle to beat the NPCs. It doesn't even require thought. Botting would be a no-brainer...and further ruin the game.

Pretty much the only part of ED that is still "normal" now for mid-level players is going to be 1v1.

Long Story Short:

Not only have the NPCs messed up Jugg battles, but they have also messed up 2v2 battles for the mid-level players.
Post #: 5
12/16/2016 4:51:59   
shadow.bane
Member

what you people don't understand is that devs did this to keep the player base as it is maybe increase a little cause if you look left right front and back you wont see a solution to bring new players or old players back, well maybe there is but devs have gave up on epicduel and just compensating us in this way to be shut down soon or something.
bottom line is that devs milking the last drop of $ from us before the big shutdown... and please don't tell me there wont be a shutdown to ED or something lol maybe it's the worst yeah maybe will be a game with 1 player online later with time like hero smash and oversoul.
so this might be the last resort for devs to keep us here as they never listened to our suggestion but now they do a little ? logic.

_____________________________

Bane Hallow The Last Shadow Fiend.
AQW Epic  Post #: 6
12/16/2016 6:30:39   
Lord Machaar
Member

quote:

Not only have the NPCs messed up Jugg battles, but they have also messed up 2v2 battles for the mid-level players.

Only way to fix this is actually make NPCs smart enough to be helpful.

Making jugg battles more complex and actually challenging will increase players retention. Keeping it as easy as it is will make it boring, repetitive and also a subject to botting. Devs should know better.

Current jugg fix is a short term one due to gifting. Players won't spend money if they that the game won't sustain. Devs definitely shouldn't sacrifice the game's core element for the sake of deluding big money spenders.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 12/16/2016 6:31:25 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 7
12/16/2016 12:03:19   
Mother1
Member

@ Lord Machaar

Here is another problem why this happened. The mistake of not curving the Credit curve along with the EXP curve. because of this the other battle modes give insuffient credits for anyone who isn't a ranked player (seeing as not only did ranks gaps remain the same, but they are now cheap by 33.3%) and Juggernaut while giving more EXP does also give the most credits. Combine that with how easy it is to win and farm, and it is no wonder the juggernaut LB is higher than even the 1 vs 1 LB.

So it isn't just the easy win factor, but the needed farming factor due to not having enough credits as well.
Epic  Post #: 8
12/16/2016 15:39:25   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


 Video games are a great study into efficiency. Not the design or creation of games but playing them. So what mother is saying is backed by a lot of concepts in gaming culture.

So if jugg is the easiest way to earn credits in PvP you will see a lot of people flocking to it for easy money. Like the people who farmed NPC's with high value drops until their sell back was nerfed
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 9
12/21/2016 21:41:29   
Lord Machaar
Member

I still remember this account have 0 PVP wins and being a level 40 thanks to NPCs. Seems like this bot has figured out that juggernaut battlemode became a NPC battlemode as well. Would be funny to see an alt reaching all time lbs in 20 days (Seeing as this alt does around 400 - 300 wins a day). Hopefully it will kill the hopes of those who are willing to join all time lbs in a legit way, to either make them stand against this change, or bot as well. Most will go with the second choice, turning ED into AQW.

In the end, I guess players will end up opening ED and tunring on their bots, community interaction will go downhill and this change will kill the game sooner than ever. Way to go devs.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 12/21/2016 21:51:32 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 10
12/22/2016 17:21:07   
Alphaeus
Member
 

 Honestly, I think Jugg mode has now become far too easy. Where it was once extremely hard to win, now it's extremely hard to lose.

There is a happy medium somewhere, I'm sure :P.

I ended up switching to another game today because I was getting win after win, but also knew that unless I had pulled an "all-dayer" I would not stand a chance of winning the daily jugg.

The last Jugg I did today was a player and an NPC. I killed the player with a single hit, and the NPC with 2. This is just way to short easy.

Honestly, make the NPCs harder, but also adjust how the other players get boosted with the Underdog. If you have a wider level gap, I would recommend rethinking the underdog for Jugg to make it at least SLIGHTLY more difficult for the Juggs.
Post #: 11
12/22/2016 17:55:41   
Mother1
Member

@ Alphaeus

There was never a happy medium with Juggernaut.

It was eithr always too easy (Gamma, Delta and currently now) or too hard (Most of omega) due to various reason. When it first came out it was a 100% pure varium battle mode and said mode made it so where your opponents were never on equal footing on you due to varium advantage jugs would face no only lower leveled but underpowered Non varium opponents. In fact the only way a juggernaut got a challenge back then was either

1) They were facing 2 varium power opponents like themselves (which was rare unless near the level cap for the jug)

2) they were facing 2 cap level players for Jug (here was when it was sometimes possible for the jug to lose)

3) They were a non varium jug facing 2 varium jugs (This was later on when the silver skull card came out, but this mode was near impossible)


Heck I can remember all he players who would make all the old "Juggernaut is not fair" thread due to them being the victims of jugs, and when the flipped happened, those same players couldn't careless because now they were the ones owning the juggernauts.

My point being is that this mode was never balanced and right now it is even easier than when it first came out due to the NPC's not having good AI's.

I played the mode and the only way I lose it now is if I get DC.
Epic  Post #: 12
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