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RE: =DF= DragonFable 14.1.0 Discussion & Feedback

 
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9/2/2017 7:51:13   
Chewy905

Chromatic ArchKnight of RP


@horrior: doomknight V1 cannot be used in the multi-battles at all currently
As for doomknight normal, have you beaten the multi battle without it first? Cause if you haven't you can't use it.
Post #: 101
9/2/2017 9:00:10   
Sakurai the Cursed
Member

@Verly - Does Bonus subtract from MPM/PDB, or add to hit chance? In other words, if you have 100 Bonus against 120 MPM, would the target have a 1% chance to avoid or ~17%? I assume it's the former since that's how it worked previously in regards to PDB, but figured I should ask.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 102
9/2/2017 9:13:09   
  Hopeful Guy

Hope Upbringer! (DragonFable)


Sakurai: It subtracts, as far as I can see. Try facing the Seppy boss fight from book 1. Since B/P/D no longer results in a miss, Seppy can only use M/P/M (of which he has about 8000+) to evade. If I have 60 Bonus, that means I would hit him just under 60% of the time if it adds to hit chance. As it happens, he is unhittable. (If he were hittable, he would be beatable... again. All it would take is DmK v1 and a bit of luck.)

EDIT: I also feel that DmK v1 should get a nerf to Life Carve (and potentially some other skills as well), to stop it messing up challenges but allow it to be used. All it would take is a nerf, followed by an artifact that restores original skills (free for all DmK v1 owners). Then just forbid the artifact in challenges, but allow DmK v1 itself. After all, without Life Carve it is an insanely powerful class, but not necessarily broken.


< Message edited by Hopeful Guy -- 9/2/2017 9:18:35 >
DF  Post #: 103
9/2/2017 9:27:19   
Chewy905

Chromatic ArchKnight of RP


@Guy
doomknight V1 will not be receiving any changes, that's been stated before. Locking it behind completing each challenge without it first is fair enough to the majority of players as shown in the long discusion thread. The fact that its so overpowered does not mess up the challenges, instead just making it easier to farm the materials you need after having created a proper strategy and beaten the challenge without it first.
Post #: 104
9/2/2017 9:31:39   
Sakurai the Cursed
Member

@Hopeful - Even if it adds, it would still have to compete against the enemy's defenses, lol. I'm basically asking whether 1 Bonus counters 1 MPM/PDB or 1.2 MPM/PDB.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 105
9/2/2017 9:42:03   
  Hopeful Guy

Hope Upbringer! (DragonFable)


Oh, right. I thought it was a bit obvious it has to compete against defenses. Sorry. I can try and find a way of testing that, if I can find an enemy with enough M/P/M.

Chewy: The thing is, it's not so much a change as a reconfiguration to make the challenge remain a challenge with DmK. The old class is still there, it's just it would be tweaked for challenge fights. But it's up to Verly in the end.

EDIT: Can anyone confirm whether LUK is adding to the Crit multiplier or not for them? For me, I have 212 LUK yet with a stable damage weapon I'm doing 436 damage without Crit and 763 with Crit, a factor of exactly 1.75 (it should be 1.962, I think).

< Message edited by Hopeful Guy -- 9/2/2017 10:20:45 >
DF  Post #: 106
9/2/2017 10:21:52   
Solanaceae
Legendary Nightshade


I think it would be helpful if the DNs were updated to reflect the new changes to the combat system. It's been like half a day and they're already a bit out-of-date.

LUK doesn't seem to be affecting crit modifiers at the moment. I slapped on several classes to test this, including Cryptic, all 3 Chickencows, DL, Rogue, and Ninja. Additionally, trinket skills are not affected by your class modifier, instead staying at x1.75.

I think that Darkness Dragon Spirit should stay at MPM. My reasoning is that Earth Dragon Spirit basically does what a glancing blow does except worse; it won't stop debuffs, you can die instantly due to massive damage (say you had 100 HP, used EDS, and enemy attacks for 110 damage before EDS is applied. You die because your health drops to 0 first before going back up), it has a longer CD, and after 2 turns you take more damage than you would from a glancing blow.

Edit: Oh, my note about the crit modifier got ninja'd by Hopeful. Just to add, I cleared my cache while doing the tests and still didn't see LUK working.

< Message edited by Solanaceae -- 9/2/2017 10:22:35 >
DF  Post #: 107
9/2/2017 10:46:40   
Dragtarius
Member

I agree with @Solanaceae, even outside of DDS avoiding damage makes more sense thematically, a BPD version would just make it a less weird version of EDS. Though I am in no way unbiased, seeing as how I usually play DL, and would not want its defense to "feel weaker" seeing as how I am more than a little bit reliant on the skill when I use the class. And I'm also more concerned than I should be about the aforementioned thematic purposes of "Darkness = not hit, Earth = hit for less." So sorry if this is in no way helpful.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 108
9/2/2017 10:51:16   
Solanaceae
Legendary Nightshade


Another small bug to report: Although swapping gear no longer removes (de)buffs, changing elements on the Doomed Dragon Scythe does. You can, however, change elements to lose the buff, then unequip and re-equip the scythe to have the buffs apply again. Presumably, this affects other multi-element weapons, but I don't have any so I can't say for certain.
DF  Post #: 109
9/2/2017 10:58:11   
liger98
Member
 

The change of BDP to not allow effects to take place while still doing 20% seems like a good compromise. Just not as satisfying as a direct miss... but whatever that's just an arbitrary preference. I'll continue testing this change later today and give some better feedback.
Post #: 110
9/2/2017 11:01:54   
Pedrofire
Member

The attack roll change to 120 is extremely welcome; defensive play-styles still take a significant hit but not enough to completely neuter them from what I've been experiencing.

As others have mentioned the LUK boost to critical damage does not seem to be in place currently. Summing critical values in their entirety (thus negating the issue with odd critical values from items that existed previously) and incorporating LUK modifiers into the info screen are great features, and seem to be working correctly from what I've seen. The offense values are all a bit oddly aligned (Element in particular is noticeably higher up than it should be) and the spacing for the critical is a bit excessive as of right now (a minor gripe). I would've liked to see the base crit adjusted to 10; as it stands it is impossible to reach the 100 cap (unless, possibly if you equip every single max crit giving item in the game and have maxed out LUK), while this wasn't the case before, which allowed you to diversify your build a little bit when going max offense. But I do concede the point that it opens up some design space for some more purely offensive items that wouldn't be DoA. A bit torn on this one, but crit (and the nerds it's suffered over the years) have always been a contentious issue.

Edit: Regarding the change making BDP ignore status effects I'm not completely sold on this one. It makes BDP the same as MPM, but you take 20% more damage. They act too similarly I feel, and the upside of being able to attain far higher BDP than MPM (~100 vs ~70) was balanced against the risk of being stunned or receiving a DoT effect. Perhaps the downside was too high, but perhaps limiting it to stuns alone? Or merely having a chance to negate negative status effects?

< Message edited by Pedrofire -- 9/2/2017 11:08:25 >
Post #: 111
9/2/2017 11:08:18   
Skullkyopi
Member

Oh, man. I felt like crying doing the Elemental Chaos Challenge with this patch. And I haven't even TRIED it pre-patch. I was too busy last week. At least I beat them eventually.

Note/Bug???: Ninja Skill: Viper Venom. Still doing Poison Element DoT instead of proposed change to current weapon element DoT.

EDIT: Hey. Uh... the back bracer/back arm of wherever Ninja is facing kinda... invisible. It's just not there. I know it's the Ninja class but this is kinda weird.

Overall, I'm more or less okay with this engine update. Kinda miss my Dodge Tank but at least BPD has some use now.

< Message edited by Skullkyopi -- 9/2/2017 11:37:06 >
DF MQ  Post #: 112
9/2/2017 11:28:44   
Solanaceae
Legendary Nightshade


@Pedrofire: Enemy crits still rip through PDB shields, and given that Theano and Siofra have an 8.5% crit chance, I'm fine with how PDB stands as-is. The other thing is that reflecting shields (Pyromancer, Ascendant, EPL) let you effectively use the enemy's attack against them. With Pyro, I can block a hit and take 25 damage, while the enemy gets reflected into eating 44 damage. This is definitely a really niche application, but I like it. The same probably goes for Pirate's Backstab.

Cryptic's Illusionary Veil gives +30 Crit, which is reduced to a 15% crit chance buff. Dunno if this was intentional (I have no problem with it, since Cryptic was kinda out there in terms of power; then again, all of the Ataleans were). Also, does a maxed out passive add +25 or +50 to Crit?

Edit: Speaking of Pirate, Dread Pirate's Sicilian Smarts and The Real Dread (Backstab and Sea Legs clones, respectively) haven't been updated.

< Message edited by Solanaceae -- 9/2/2017 11:32:19 >
DF  Post #: 113
9/2/2017 11:58:51   
Pedrofire
Member

@Solanaceae: I appreciate that difference being in place, and I'm not saying the system isn't working well as is, but I've always been a fan of making stats feeling "different". Obviously don't want it to be done in a contrived manner but I feel that status negation did a bit too much to homogenize the defenses. If given this change people feel like the defenses are perfectly balanced then so be it, I would not advocate for a change then, but a vulnerability to, say, everything except stuns doesn't strike me as a particularly big nerf while keeping things interesting (and perhaps spawning more diversified builds according to how prevalent negative stat effects are).
Post #: 114
9/2/2017 12:14:40   
  Verlyrus
DragonFable Boxcat


I have a fix for LUK not affecting crit in certain battles ready. (but not live)

Element swapping removing statuses is proving to be really, really, really, difficult to fix.

thanks for the reports of specific issues with various classes. I'm going to work on getting the update features fixed first though.
AQ MQ  Post #: 115
9/2/2017 12:22:39   
Solanaceae
Legendary Nightshade


In my opinion, stuns are inconvenient but not too big of an issue since you're usually protected by your PDB shield for the duration of the stun, and even more so now that skills cool down even while stunned. I'm much more worried by other debuffs, such as huge DoTs (Razen Al Ghoul, Zealot), for which a PDB build would be effectively hard-countered. Then again, some strong DoTs are applied even if they miss (Doomwood Crawler, Enraged Deadwood Destroyer), so I guess that depends more on how Verly codes it than anything. Additionally, if PDB let in status effects, what would distinguish it from a +Elemental resistance build?
DF  Post #: 116
9/2/2017 12:34:57   
Pedrofire
Member

I'd argue that builds being hard countered is perfectly acceptable (and healthy even). Having one build to rule them all that is functional in all situations does not incite creativity or diversity.

You raise a good point with elemental builds. However, while PDB is capable of reducing all forms of damage an elemental build is only able to mitigate damage sources of one element (Unless of course you went for a +All build, but you would also be compromising your healing/ mana recovery sources considerably) which make them great in quests/ bosses where one element is used but much less effective in situations where multiple elements are being used (e.g. Siofra/ Theano fight). They fill different niches. As it stands the Dragonoid fight on hard mode favours a heavy fire resistance build, but the Theano/ Siofra multi fight would favour a PDB one. In practice they do exhibit big differences.



< Message edited by Pedrofire -- 9/2/2017 12:36:16 >
Post #: 117
9/2/2017 12:36:52   
  Hopeful Guy

Hope Upbringer! (DragonFable)


OK, so I've had time to play with this update (and level to 85 in the process, woohoo), and I think it's a really fun one. Not necessarily because of the changes themselves, but because of the potential they bring for really (and I mean REALLY) cool mechanics.

First of all, the glancing blow modifier. It's at 20% by default. There isn't an obvious reason why it's 20%, it just is at the moment. But that gives us a lot of potential for cool gimmicks with classes and gear. First of all, the default level for M/P/M is 5 and the default for B/P/D is 10 at the moment.
Let's take stealthy classes like Rogue, Cryptic and Ninja. Thematically, they sacrifice heavy armour for speed and agility. It makes sense, therefore, that they would take more damage from a glancing blow (because they're less heavily armoured) but they'd be more likely to dodge an attack in the first place. Something like the modifier being 50% (so even glancing blows hurt) but the classes starting with 20 M/P/M and 15 B/P/D makes some sense to me.

The opposite kind of class is the heavily armoured one, things like Warrior, Paladin, DL and Guardian (also GPS- imagine trying to dodge an attack with that. :P). They have heavy armour, so it makes sense thematically that glancing blows wouldn't do much to them, and even direct hits would cause less damage. As a result, those classes could start out with 5 M/P/M and 5 B/P/D, but have a glancing modifier of 10% and +10 All by default (obviously, these figures would need to be considered for balance purposes, this is just an example).

Then magical classes I guess thematically would get hurt more because they don't really have much armor at all? I don't know how this would work. Possibly keep everything as it is for them.

This can be extended to gear and 'fiesta' items. I'm talking about stuff like heavy, full visor helmets which give you +All and reduce your glancing blow modifier, but give you negative M/P/M, kind of like a reversed Hidebehind. +20 All, +30 END and halving the modifier, but then also giving you -15 M/P/M to compensate would make things interesting. At the moment gear feels kind of standardised, but stuff like that would cause fun. Alternatively, you can go for a lighter piece of headwear which gives you more M/P/M and D/P/B but -END and All, and adds 20% to the glancing modifier. It would certainly be a change-up, although you'd have to prevent things from getting to unhittable levels.

Also, passive effects would work really well with the Crit modifier and glancing blow modifier. Imagine some kind of 'Contempt' passive on DoomKnight, which adds 5% to your glancing blow modifier and gives you -5 M/P/M, -5 All and -5 B/P/D per turn, but increases your Crit by 5, gives you 5% boost and +0.05 to your Crit modifier per turn for 5 turns. It fits in with the theme of the class (the whole 'I don't fear you, come at me and I will destroy you'), and is pretty cool. Or DL just getting +1 All, +5 B/P/D and -1% Glancing Blows every 5 turns in exchange for sacrificing 1 Crit, 1% boost and 0.01 to the Crit modifier, capping after 50 turns. Would make the class so tanky against the hard hitting bosses, but might leave you exposed to those that heal quickly or go berserk.

Obviously, I've just made a bunch of examples of stuff that probably will be difficult to implement or just outright bad ideas. But you see the point. There's so much room to play with stuff, which is why I really like this update's potential.
DF  Post #: 118
9/2/2017 12:48:13   
Pedrofire
Member

@Hopeful Guy: I love the gear ideas. I agree that gear feels somewhat standardised, and am all for Hidebehind-like items that compromise in one stat to benefit another. I'm also a big fan of the class-dependant glancing blow modifier. It's extremely flavourful and adds another layer to strategy complexity.

The inclusion of more stats that items could modify is very interesting; why should items be restricted to changing only the basic offensive/ defensive stats? Unless there's an engine limitation it would be a breath of fresh air to see items have crit/ glancing blow modifiers.

All in all the changes to defense open up a lot of possibilities that I very much hope to see to some extent in future. Honestly, I'd be perfectly happy if the only release for a week were a shop filled with these "lopsided" items (perhaps as an addition to Cysero's shop? We haven't seen any game changing accessories added in there for a while), but a more organic implementation might obviously be preferable.
Post #: 119
9/2/2017 12:49:35   
LouisCyphere
Member

Okay, after more running about in the current engine 14.1.01, I have more feedback.

While the new engine removed the redundancy between MPM and BDP, there's the problem of which stats are better.

MPM fully negates damage, while BDP reduces 80% of the damage and negates debuffs such as stun.
Since we don't know the cap of BDP, I'll just assume that they both have a cap of 100. (and we also don't know the proper formula for it)
This means that MPM is the better defense stat compared to BDP since you'll still take damage.

If I would suggest changes, make shields be MPM and have BDP act as "secondary defense" stat where we mostly gain BDP through items.
So MPM comes from skills and BDP comes from items (which I feel is appropriate since newer items tend to give BDP instead of MPM)

As for Critical and Luck stat, it's in the right place right now. The nerf to damage is compensated by being able to bypass BDP.

@HopefulGuy:
Niche gear is good for challenge items but in most quests our stats should be able to defend against different attack types since mobs come in different flavors.
Let's say a build that focuses on Block defense stat is good for Theano since he deals Melee damage but will receive a lot of damage in the new quest in SwordHaven since Vayle is using different types of attacks.

< Message edited by LouisCyphere -- 9/2/2017 12:52:37 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 120
9/2/2017 12:55:03   
Solanaceae
Legendary Nightshade


@Pedrofire: Well, you make a lot of good points. As long as the extreme fights that straight-up invalidate builds stay within challenge areas, I don't have a problem. I just didn't like the idea of having to dump several different builds' worth of gear into the bank, pulling them out for individual bosses, and them putting them back in.

@Hopeful: Small clarification, default P/D/B isn't 10. That's probably from your 200 LUK. I do like the opened diversity in builds though.

@Louis: Cap for PDB? I don't think there ever was a cap to the amount of defenses you could stack, other than a hard cap for elemental resistances and a soft cap for the other defenses (there are only so many skills and pieces of equipment you can have active simultaneously).

< Message edited by Solanaceae -- 9/2/2017 13:14:58 >
DF  Post #: 121
9/2/2017 12:59:34   
Pedrofire
Member

@LouisCyphere:

MPM is better per stat point, but it is much easier to accumulate BDP than it is MPM. I believe the max MPM you can attain is ~70 (80 for Magic) but you can reach ~100 BDP. As it stands in fact, the pure BDP build negates slightly more damage overall than a pure MPM build, so I believe the balance is fine there.

Post #: 122
9/2/2017 12:59:51   
  Hopeful Guy

Hope Upbringer! (DragonFable)


Most items give equal amounts of Block, Parry and Dodge, though, so that wouldn't matter much. I'm talking more about gear and classes built to favour B/P/D and glancing blows, vs those built for M/P/M, vs those built for resistances, vs those that are more offensive, etc. I don't disagree that you need to be able to defend against Melee, Pierce and Magic to some extent, but I'm saying that gear could be made to favour doing that by evasion or by resistances. Also, niche items are fun because you never know what's coming- remember When and his insane bonus? Sacrifice evasion and B/P/D for all, since his bonus can hit through it. Bosses that hit really hard? Maybe you're better off just going for a build that gives you a better chance of avoiding the attack than those that favour All or glancing blows, because even if you have some resistance, you will take a lot of damage unless the attack misses.

EDIT: I forgot I have 200 LUK, thanks for pointing that out Solanaceae. Whoops! The point still does stand, though.

< Message edited by Hopeful Guy -- 9/2/2017 13:02:02 >
DF  Post #: 123
9/2/2017 13:01:42   
  Verlyrus
DragonFable Boxcat


quote:

@Pedrofire: Well, you make a lot of good points. As long as the extreme fights that straight-up invalidate builds stay within challenge areas, I don't have a problem. I just didn't like the idea of having to dump several different builds' worth of gear into the bank, pulling them out for individual bosses and them putting them back in.


Oh goodness, I'm going to try not to make any extreme "you need a specific build" fights outside of challenge fights.
I tried a little bit of that with yesterday's quest, and yeah, it got messy really quick. Stuff like enemies that glancing blow everything except melee attacks are only going to be in challenge arenas.

quote:

Most items give equal amounts of Block, Parry and Dodge, though, so that wouldn't matter much.

Except with these changes, I can start differentiating items more. Enemies can start having more varied attacks, etc.
That's part of why I wanted a higher roll on defenses. It would let me make more specialized items instead of just having catch-all defenses on everything. I might tune the roll up to 150 just so I can do that in the future. if the roll is too low, with the current available items, if I added a specialized item, it would just be overpowered.

< Message edited by Verlyrus -- 9/2/2017 13:04:47 >
AQ MQ  Post #: 124
9/2/2017 13:06:31   
  Hopeful Guy

Hope Upbringer! (DragonFable)


I don't think that it would ever get to 'You need to have a specific build' vs 'You can play like this, or like this, or like this'. I would think that all the builds should be equally valid power-wise, but some builds more suited to some fights than others.

Glancing blows for everything but melee would be kind of unfair on Rogue and Mage bases, because you don't tend to collect melee weapons unless you're a Warrior base. That does penalise some builds over others, whereas varying defences doesn't.
DF  Post #: 125
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