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11/12/2021 22:34:15

Mr. Roguish
Banned

I'm usually very unlucky with GGB's and I just got an ultra rare gift box. Based on this character (Character ID: 12244436) that attempts to play some interpretation of as close to a stereotypical rogue that I could come up with (essentially an Annihilator Beastmaster mage dodge build). What would be the more optimal thing to pick up with the current Ultra Rare gift-boxes?

I have been on the hunt for a good FO fire, earth, and/or light armor that still fits the rogue aesthetic; and typically my choice starts at what the MRM is and usually aim for those that are at or close to the 55 across the board, but I will also take things close to it (not that it specifically has to be an armor). But as far as I see, none of the armors available really fit this bill.

Essentially, for my build, what would be a must have item?

If you have any questions on the strategy that I use to make a more accurate assessment, please let me know.

< Message edited by Mr. Roguish -- 11/12/2021 23:07:06 >

Post #: 1

11/13/2021 9:00:17

Cupquake
Member

I don't play dodge so I'm not quite sure.

But I think Mr Uber plays a rogue/dodge type character, so hopefully, he sees your post and can help you.

Post #: 2

11/13/2021 9:33:38

RobynJoanne
Member

People haven't really responded yet, so I'll try. To be honest, I have a feeling no one's responded yet because there's no good answer to your request.

There isn't anything I'd consider "must-have" for a beastmage dodge build in the UR shop. Dodge is a remarkably cheap build to use.

For the dodge and mage side of your build:
PCO is the big one, but you already have it.
Dragonguard is usually a good choice since Hypercritical is incredibly powerful, but Dodge builds don't have enough Luk to really benefit from Hypercritical.
Rainbow's Edge is the blind eater, so it would originally be a good choice except for the fact that it, unlike most eaters, is capped. Its damage is not fantastic, and it's not really worth running.
Warlic's Oblivion Sphere is a great mage misc with probably the best pair of stats to boost. However, you don't have Luk, so the Luk boost isn't nearly as useful.
The Bloodmage and Bloodzerker armors are usually a good choice for mages, but you're not an FO build.
Similarly, Ice Necromancer Cavalry would also not be of that much use to you despite having one of the strongest ice skills in the game and an elevuln that works really well with the abundance of ice items.
The Arcane Cutlasses also would not be of much use to you since you are not nuking.
Poelalas and the elemental boosters also do not help you much since they're weaker than traditional guests and pets without nuking and when you have Cha.

For the beastmaster side of your build:
Legion Minion has a strong burn, but its total damage output is weaker than Pyre Rat Contract due to the latter's gold costs. You're also not using Neko subrace, so there's not much point in using burns.
Fu-Dog is a fantastic pet for Petrify infliction, but dodge and stun effects are anti-synergistic since you only benefit from one of the two effects at a time.
Aqua Bot and Fire Bot provide up to +50% damage on their strongest toggle for SP. If you pursue more damage from your pets, they may be worth a look.

In short, there's not much in the UR shop that would be of much help to you. I also must admit to not knowing too much about Rogue aesthetics, and I'm sure you would know much more about what you like to see.

On the other hand, the R shop has some items that you may find interesting.
There's the new Geo Logos for starters. I notice you have the original Logos, but you do not use it for whatever personal reason. Regardless, it provides one of the highest MRM boosts on a shield, though dodge doesn't really care for elemental resists, so you can skip this. I'd also normally recommend Titan's Fall to a dodge build player, but you already have it, so I'll assume you know best.
Sin of Revenotheus is a clone of Possessed Sword that scales to level 150. It has a chance of reducing a monster's hit by 12 bth. The main benefit it has is that it attacks while doing this, so you do not have to sacrifice all pet damage for the "MRM increase" (it's technically not an MRM increase, hence the quotes). You already have this, but I believe it's worth mentioning, as you're not using the pet. Female Shinobi is the guest counterpart for if you are seeking a similar effect.
Call Mana Bat provides you with a guest that can heal MP based on damage. While it's nothing special at first, dodge builds can spam click PCO to greatly increase damage output. It can heal a substantial amount of MP, though you also have Siphon for this role.
For the pure damage side of a beastmaster, there are Grimlord and Cryo Cannoneer for guests and Gold-Hungry Abyssal Mimic, Aberrant the Exiled, and Gold-Hungry Infernal Mimic for pets.
Grimlord is both cheaper and stronger than Cryo Cannoneer due to using different standards.
The Mimic pets both pay gold for extra damage, so they're "free" damage from a resource standpoint. Aberrant the Exiled costs HP for its boost, so it has both one of the highest damage among pets and stronger Lucky Strikes, though you do not have the Luk to take advantage of the latter attribute.

Finally, it is a personal choice, but why do you not use Big Dictionary? It has Panoply, which is a MRM booster that is far more powerful and cheaper than anything else available. It is much better than Imanok Edoc. I also do not understand some of your other equipment choices, but I trust that they are for your rogue aesthetic reasons. This, on the other hand, struck me as strange since you're not using the better version of an item you're currently using.

< Message edited by RobynJoanne -- 11/13/2021 9:34:00 >

Post #: 3

11/13/2021 10:58:35

Mr. Roguish
Banned

@RobynJoanne

Wow, just...wow. I'm really blown back by the level of detail you went in with everything, I appreciate it! Well I guess it's only right that I answer your questions as I already offered I would.

I digress:

quote:

There's the new Geo Logos for starters.

Ironically, I had already picked it up I was just sitting in my Shared vault because I was moving some things around.

quote:

I notice you have the original Logos, but you do not use it for whatever personal reason. Regardless, it provides one of the highest MRM boosts on a shield, though dodge doesn't really care for elemental resists, so you can skip this.

This is true, however a lot of really great shields are of the water element, which I also have:
• Doray- Which I was able to swap out with the the "mystic father of time"
• Hyperalphean Skjoldr (currently in use)- Because of low LUK, helps ensure that I can at least dodge one of the enemies' attacks if they have a chance to go first despite my [ambush potion = 105 initiative] + [whispering raiment = 105 initiative] + [stalking paw = 0-100 initiative] + [45 LUK = 45 initiative] = 255-355 initiative (because dodge build takes time to set up, not having the initiative to go first is extremely detrimental, but there are reason I found it better to sacrifice LUK that I will explain later)
• Kindred Spirits' Devotion (currently in use)- For worst case scenario needs of a boost of SP and/or MP, especially since it doesn't take that many charges for use
- While Logos does indeed have the highest MRM when toggled, I wanted to somewhat attempt to have as much of an elementally diverse arsenal as feasible. And while Agony shield doesn't match or surpass Logos, it comes extremely close additionally without any toggle because a dodge build can be extremely draining on one's resources (usually SP). But more often than not, the only shields I use in my entire inventory are the UltraGuardian shield and the mystic father of time. So said shield would only be necessary if for whatever reason, I just REALLY needed to make sure that my enemy didn't hit me more than +135.04 MRM.

But since I got the Geo Logos, I swapped that out with my Gemini shield, but now I lack a wind shield. So far my UltraGuardian set is unaligned so that I can use the shield with any of my other armors, but now I'm contemplating shifting it to one of the elements of fire, wind, or light.

quote:

I'd also normally recommend Titan's Fall to a dodge build player, but you already have it, so I'll assume you know best.

Titan's fall does good damage, but I'd rather have the SP regen from the UltraGuardian which helps me maintain my MRM boosts and stack the ele vulnerability from the power gauntlet, thus increase my own damage and making such additional damage from the shield not cost effective in comparison. For example, I actually experimented with neko for awhile, but I switched back to vampire. So with that, I use the sunburst amulet and stack burn with bleed because bleed activates with the burn infliction. Now with the SP drain from the famine rapier and the SP gain from the ultra guardian shield, I can keep stacking burn which is simultaneously stacking bleed too and I am regaining all the SP used each time.

This is more along the lines of just sitting and dodging like the ghost costume. But instead of a flat damage from the titansfall shield, the damage for both bleed and burn are progressively getting stronger and quickly surpasses the damage from the shield.

quote:

Sin of Revenotheus is a clone of Possessed Sword that scales to level 150. It has a chance of reducing a monster's hit by 12 bth. The main benefit it has is that it attacks while doing this, so you do not have to sacrifice all pet damage for the "MRM increase" (it's technically not an MRM increase, hence the quotes). You already have this, but I believe it's worth mentioning, as you're not using the pet. Female Shinobi is the guest counterpart for if you are seeking a similar effect.
Call Mana Bat provides you with a guest that can heal MP based on damage. While it's nothing special at first, dodge builds can spam click PCO to greatly increase damage output. It can heal a substantial amount of MP, though you also have Siphon for this role.

Currently, my guest and pets that allow me to have an effective MRM dodge build are the bun-bannerets. Guaranteed MRM buffs are far superior compared to the chance based one's the Sin of Revenotheus, Possessed Sword, and female shinobi (that I only got for the sake of aesthetic) in both reliability and the overall MRM buff. Additionally, celerity will add the stack of the MRM buff the bannerets provide but the same cannot be said for the parry pets/guests. I also have the mana bat in my shared vault actually, but as I said, the bannerets are way too essential for the dodge build at this point that the potential mana regen isn't as necessary nor cost effective to actually staying alive due to the ability to dodge.

quote:

Finally, it is a personal choice, but why do you not use Big Dictionary? It has Panoply, which is a MRM booster that is far more powerful and cheaper than anything else available. It is much better than Imanok Edoc. I also do not understand some of your other equipment choices, but I trust that they are for your rogue aesthetic reasons. This, on the other hand, struck me as strange since you're not using the better version of an item you're currently using.

Ah yes the big question. I find that when using the big dictionary, it is better to use the pig Drake as it will keep the stack of MRM lasting longer without the need to recast. However depending on how much MRM you are relying on to be effective at dodging, its only extended about 1 extra turn than the 5 that big dictionary provides.
I find that dual bannerets immediately surpass banneret+pigdrake without big dictionary being used and having to build up to it. So if one were to just stack celerity, you'll start off with a sufficient amount of MRM each turn pets have celerity without the burden of additional turns of celerity quickly burning through the turns of the MRM boost from big dictionary. However if one were to use big dictionary, one could essentially do one cast and after the initial boosts of MRM, both pigdrake and banneret will surpass the MRM from the dual bannerets on the very next turn; and will last without stacked celerity. However if you do have celerity, you'll be burning through your MRM buffs to the point that it will become detrimental towards MRM stacking unless pet exclusive celerity is stacked via clever disguise (misc). Simply said, I find not using the big dictionary to be easier, takes less time, more conservative on my MP resource, and the benefits of a big dictionary strategy that it gives more than dual banneretts aren't remotely neccessary.

The only reason I use imonok edoc, is because I had the extra spell slot availalbe and because I was testing to see if I could make big dictionary more useful actually.

< Message edited by Mr. Roguish -- 11/13/2021 11:21:01 >

Post #: 4

11/13/2021 12:44:03

Sphinx Jevoha
Member

Hello bro:)

In my experience, the biggest problem with Dodge builds is that you will have to compromise something or the other. The greatest Dodge build in Lore history is:

Ghost Costume + Logos Shield with toggle + Pig Drake + Paladin Assistant + Roc LSS Crystal (250 DEX/CHA/LUK).

That's 75 + 29 + 49 + 38 = 191 MRM approximately, with 250 DEX/CHA/LUK.

The only thing that can hit you at this point is your bad luck with GGBs, or maybe Robin Hood with maxed out Talent tree using an aimbot-assisted sniper rifle under the personal supervision of Achilles himself.

The issue with the above build is, where's your damage coming from? You either compromise with CHA and go instead for INT (magic spells/weapons/guest upkeep), or compromise the Roc LSS crystal and use Blightslayer Dirk to inflict roughly 300 damage when you dodge.

Dodge builds are fun, and I think it's actually increasingly common these days, as opposed to what others have said.

The latest boss we had, Zephra, in the Lost Talon set, has her MP attacks locked to Auto-hit the player.

Bosses are a great way to tell the current state of the game. People where stun-locking bosses for 10 turns, so the staff came up with "Freedom" status.

Likewise, people are going for dodge builds more often these days, and that's why the last boss Zephra had Auto-hit on her MP attacks.

Post #: 5

11/13/2021 14:16:09

Mr. Roguish
Banned

@Sphinx Jevoha

hello lol.

quote:

The issue with the above build is, where's your damage coming from? You either compromise with CHA and go instead for INT (magic spells/weapons/guest upkeep), or compromise the Roc LSS crystal and use Blightslayer Dirk to inflict roughly 300 damage when you dodge

Correct, which is why I don't play a pure stereotypical dodge build. I used to do that, however:
• It didn't fit with the rogue theme of what I was trying to accomplish of just not really doing anything other than purely dodging
• There becomes a threshold of where so much increase to blocking/dodging really becomes irrelevant. Plus I never want to be 100% unhittable, just 99% lol
• I didn't like all crazy nuke damage everyone else was enjoying while it took 10 or more turns to kill a zard

But there are technically multiple ways to play a dodge build:
1. Originally I went the stereotypical ranger type build with less than 100% proc ranged weapons. However I didn't like the aesthetic of using this big halberd/spear/javelins nor the concept of a skillful, agile, and stealthy rogue/ninja/assassin with a ton of STR like he's gonna pick up a house.
Eventually I decided to convert my STR into INT which I thought better fit my role-playing experience since I view INT as cunning as well as access to an extra source of power to preform skills/jutsus (MP).
• This also let me have access to magic weapons that come in all shapes and sizes that I could (as best as I could) pick the ones with the effects and aesthetic that I was trying to achieve.

2. When I switched to INT I WAS more going down the route of:
1. Using the Prime Chaos Orb (misc) to eventually switch my opponent's elemental resistances to be weakest to darkness
2. Using the Absolute Darkness spell to make my opponent blind with approximately -85BtH
3. Using the Rose-in-Full-Bloom (pet) to inflict Berserk of approximately -20BtH
4. Using the Roots of DAW (misc) to inflict Temporary Entanglement of approximately -216 to DEX = -27BtH or other misc that would just boost my MRM
5. Use a combination of spells like "Moonwalker's Grace", "Imanok Edoc", and the Big Dictionary's (staff) "Panoply", to boost MRM; usually incombination with Purple Rain (spell) and/or the Father Time/Doray shields to preserve MP and attempts to maximize status infliction.
• This whole set up takes about 8 turns for the blind and a few turns to maximize the MRM and DEX buffs which is all assuming that the mob doesn't resist status infliction multiple times. Up side to this is, essentially when everything is said and done, unless mob is designed to always hit, they will always miss.

2.5 Additionally, occasionally and usually for weaker mobs, I'd run a combo of Alchemical Unity + Chaser Bracer (rare) + Brilliance of DAW with stacked celerity to stack admittedly very high (100+ minus to BtH) blind.
• But that's a gradual build and I dont remember why, but there was a reason I stopped doing it so much.

3. With the introduction of the Bun-banneret guest and pet. I switched my DEX and LUK to CHA (205 DEX, 250 CHA, 45 LUK). Bannerets stack best with each other in my experience and give me +39.37 MRM with no buffs to CHA and +78.74 MRM with celerity (also no buff to CHA). This more than makes up for what I lost in MRM via the stats. This allows me to wear the unaligned UltraGuardian shield without consequence even though it doesn't provide as much MRM as my other shields, it helps with maintaining my SP for the guest, miscs, and nukes. As well as I also switch between the SP guest and MP guest to also reduce SP drain burden. With 250 INT, I have plenty of MP for the MP version of the guest as well as I frequent weapons and items that regen MP.

Currently (with the intro to the Nightfall raiment armor) my routine is (these are steps, NOT TURNS):
1. Get whispering raiment (class armor) + stalking paw (weapon) + lucretia ambush potion = ensure i still go first (which is extremely underrated)
2. Shadowfall raiment (armor) + father of time/doray (shields) + famine rapier (weapon) + shadowfeeder pendant (misc)
3. Get about 3 celereity (or as much as you deem appropriate) with shadowfeeder
4. Activate "dusk stance" and "shadow focus" (skills)
5. Cast moonwalker's grace (spell) once for accuracy
6. Equip sunburst amulet (misc) and activate famine rapier weapon special
7. Cast rest of Moonwalker's grace
8. Activate zfinity Gauntlet of power (misc) "crushing power"
9. Use primechaos orb (misc) to get opponent's weakest elemental resistance to darkness
10. Equip hairmuffs (misc) (if possible) and cast absolute darkness (spell)
11. Activate shield to reset HP, MP, and SP, switch to ultra guardian shield
12. Spam "shadow focus" armor skill

[Guests give you +78.74 MRM] + [Hairmuffs gives enemy -25.3 BtH which] + [dusk stance gives you +12 MRM and enemy -12 BtH, or simply +24 MRM] + [absolute darkness gives enemy approximately -7 BtH].
Not only do you have +135.04 MRM on top of your armor, shield, and DEX & LUK. But you're also doing crazy damage every turn with SP constantly returning to continue nukes, power gauntlet to make nukes do even more damage, and more celerity especially if you have a decent weapon to regen SP and/or MP.

So my damage comes from:
1. I will use Primal Chaos Orb to attempt to get a good percent of my opponent weak to darkness. Regardless of whether or not it becomes it's weakest you will be doing more damage 2 fold (you deal more damage and they take more damage) with each use, and the first use of PCO is free.
2. I use the infinitia staff (a darkness weapon that regens both SP or MP)
3. Absolute darkness benefits the most: would have a high blind, inflicts elemental vulnerability to darkness AND grants elemental empowerment with darkness which stacks with the elemental vulnerability the nightfall armor grants and the elemental vulnerability from the power gauntlet
4. The "shadow focus" armor skill is darkness locked, and therefore would benefit the most from all the stuff mentioned in point 2
Also keep in mind, you can use any weapon of any element with whatever buffs they give and it will turn into darkness (like alchemical Unity for increased blind but it won't stack with absolute darkness), so you will always be able to benefit from the increases to dealing darkness damage and your enemy's weakness to taking darkness damage. Without giving the details, I'm consistently doing +1K damage every turn, and with the set up mentioned, all the SP drain is regained immediately so its basically no cost which allows further uses of the power gauntlet to do even MORE damage for EVEN longer.

The benefit of what I mentioned compared to what you mentioned is that my style conserves resources (MP and SP) passively. So I can do damage myself without wasting turns casting more spells, drinking potions, or running out of MP or SP. Relying on guests means I dont have to rely on inflicting my opponent l, my boosts to dodging are guaranteed.

Additionally, I have different strategies with different armors. However the benefit of a proper dodge build, I can use whatever armor I want because I'm not being hit so I dont need to worry about the damage. Nightfall is currently the most appealing considering the vast majority of the damage is coming directly from me, which means I can use the infinita staff and help regain and maintain my resources even better than they already are.

quote:

The latest boss we had, Zephra, in the Lost Talon set, has her MP attacks locked to Auto-hit the player.

Bosses are a great way to tell the current state of the game. People where stun-locking bosses for 10 turns, so the staff came up with "Freedom" status.

Likewise, people are going for dodge builds more often these days, and that's why the last boss Zephra had Auto-hit on her MP attacks.

Yea I never found myself to really be an exhibitionist. If I run into an opponnet with auto hit, I will attempt a rush style with stacked celerity and damaging status inflictions. If that doesn't work then I'll chalk it up to something like a mage running into the Mana Elemental

< Message edited by Mr. Roguish -- 11/13/2021 14:43:15 >

Post #: 6

11/13/2021 19:19:00

Sapphire
Member

Seems to me, if you're going for a dodge build with the best dodge possible, but still want damage, you have to forgo luck and do 250 Int/Charisma/Dexterity. The Int will be used at the very least for guest upkeep. SP upkeep will end up being eaten up too fast. Dual bun barrets is better than pig drake and the paladin guest IMO. Luck's help w/ blocking is low, but you forgo the status inflict help. I notice a big difference w/o luck in this area, so self buffs is probably more reliable than inflicting or relying on blinds and other things.

While Logos is better for blocking, the blocking game changed a bit with Titan's Fall. And you don't have to max blocking to get it.

One thing I think should be in a blocking build's arsenal, is mystic rainbow spell. It has the blind eater buff. And since it is light damage, I would think using PCO to light, brilliance of daw misc, alchemical unity, and using shadow raiment armor, which gives darkness and light ele vuln which tends to stack a bit, and with it's toggles puts it near ghost costume for overall blocking, just that it has an SP upkeep to get there...

If you're using this armor, titan's fall, stacking blind with dual bun barrets on a 250 char/dex/int build and going for kill shots with the mystic rainbow spell, I'd think you'd be doing plenty of damage.

And I have done this route, and it works pretty well.

I think the biggest question for Mr Rogue, is if you feel as though this fits in your themed character. If you feel it doesn't, I don't know then. Perhaps the issue is kind of alluded in the other post that was heavily debated and locked. Rogue to the powers that be, just isn't a thing enough to help you find appropriate gear, and that's unfortunate.

If one wanted to be do blocking, then get good damage and not even BE a blocking build, just --> 1. Celerity 2. Absolute Darkness 3. Eclipse Shield skill 4. Some other multi-turn blind, the more turns the better. This yields a blind for multiple turns and you'll never be hit. I use a certain low level weapon that does a 10 turn blind, just use the blind weakness shield and maybe quadforce-> dex to land the hit, since it's ranged.

10 turns of not being hit no matter what your build is or items are means you go Nuke after it's set up.

Post #: 7

11/13/2021 23:42:01

Mr. Roguish
Banned

@SapphireCatalyst2021

quote:

Seems to me, if you're going for a dodge build with the best dodge possible, but still want damage, you have to forgo luck and do 250 Int/Charisma/Dexterity.

The issue with not having any LUK, is that I won't have the sufficient initiative to always go first. 45 LUK is as low as I could go with the other items that I have that gives initiative that will maintain at least 250 initiative. The goal was 250 but I kept the extra 5 for good measure, because as I explained, relying on the pets, guests, miscs to effectively dodge only works when they've had their turn after you've had yours, therefore a monster getting the first turn gives them the opportunity to destroy you before you've even had the opportunity to act. Additionally, the added benefit of increasing status infliction helps too, especially for the famine rapier.

quote:

The Int will be used at the very least for guest upkeep. SP upkeep will end up being eaten up too fast. Dual bun barrets is better than pig drake and the paladin guest IMO. Luck's help w/ blocking is low, but you forgo the status inflict help. I notice a big difference w/o luck in this area, so self buffs is probably more reliable than inflicting or relying on blinds and other things.

Ah yes you all are catching on. I found the same thing, which is why is why my inventory is set up the way it is (pig drake is only in there because I wanted to do some additional testing in a different facet). Because LUK's large investment for low gain in regards to blocking, I transferred it to CHA to buff dual bannerets which provide so much more blocking per stat point invested. The main thing with LUK for me is the initiative which is why I still have just a bit, I experimented for awhile without it and it SUCKED. Consistently going first is highly underrated if you haven't tested being without it for with such a squishy build.

quote:

While Logos is better for blocking, the blocking game changed a bit with Titan's Fall. And you don't have to max blocking to get it.

They are all ways:
• Logos- More for maxing dodge chance
• Titan fall- More for increasing damage output

I play a different way however. I use the Ultraguardian shield mainly so that I can utilize nukes, miscs, help maintain guest, etc. These in my opinion help achieve what both of those shield help with and more.

quote:

One thing I think should be in a blocking build's arsenal, is mystic rainbow spell. It has the blind eater buff. And since it is light damage, I would think using PCO to light, brilliance of daw misc, alchemical unity, and using shadow raiment armor, which gives darkness and light ele vuln which tends to stack a bit, and with it's toggles puts it near ghost costume for overall blocking, just that it has an SP upkeep to get there...

If you're using this armor, titan's fall, stacking blind with dual bun barrets on a 250 char/dex/int build and going for kill shots with the mystic rainbow spell, I'd think you'd be doing plenty of damage.

And I have done this route, and it works pretty well.

Interesting, I steered away from blinds because as we discussed, buffs to oneself are typically more reliable than status inflictions to the opponent. However in general, I find status inflictions to the opponent to consistently be more potent with a lot less effort. (i.e: roc day LSS crystal gives a total of blocking via [pure blocking + increase to DEX] of 38.75 which is considered top tier / luminous wrym spear inflicts a blind of -50 BtH). But then it gets to a point where the additional + to blocking or - to opponent(s)' BtH becomes unnecessary; especially if one is doing both. I find where I'm stacking things to increase block chance on both sides, I could be actually dealing damage that doesn't have a damage reduction due to status infliction.

quote:

I think the biggest question for Mr Rogue, is if you feel as though this fits in your themed character. If you feel it doesn't, I don't know then. Perhaps the issue is kind of alluded in the other post that was heavily debated and locked. Rogue to the powers that be, just isn't a thing enough to help you find appropriate gear, and that's unfortunate.

When I'm referring to the aesthetic I'm not referencing how it plays, purely the cosmetics of the armor itself. For instance, Horo-show Void armor has very decent MRM, but that's a big bulky nightmare knight armor, not a cloak and dagger hooded rogue. Think of Garrott Cutthroat, the Whispering Raiment armor, (almost all of the armors that I have, some are only there due to necessity). And I get that there is a lack of aesthetically relevant appropriate gear (my whole suggestion thread is dedicated to it lol). I just mentioned it so people didn't just try to suggest to me something like the paladin cavalry armor or something. But because there is so little to choose from I am willing to make compromises, especially if the item/armor has game changing qualities or physically looks appealing despite what the lore implications might be. For instance, someone brought up to me in the past that Jedi are considered "knights", however the armor that is based on the franchise looks close enough and has really high MRM to boot, so I allowed it, especially since again, I don't have much to choose from.

< Message edited by Mr. Roguish -- 11/14/2021 0:05:20 >

Post #: 8

11/14/2021 1:12:34

Sapphire
Member

I like having luck quite a lot too. I like going first, the status inflict help, guaranteed lucky strikes with weapons that get larger lucky strikes, etc. Sometimes if I change my build, but still have charisma, I'll use safiria's kneeboard. It's like having an extra stat, a little.

But a thought did occur to me. I have never owned the original Logos, and just picked up the Geo version, and have yet to play around with it. Does the toggled +15MRM stay at all times as long as you have the SP, or does it reset every battle? Or maybe yopu can flip the buff on at the set inventory before battle option? If it stays, it might be like having luck if you tend to block 98% of the time. You can then set your plan up, and switch to whatever else shield you prefer.

Also using the (i need to get this, just being lazy) light shield that offers -20 blind potence, you could gain celerity, wield this shield and try and inflict blind and the two turns of bun barrets plus blinds would yield a sizable chance at blocking. So *if* Logos keeps it's blocking basttle to battle, and iof you block the first turn, and then gain celerity, wield blind potence shield, inflict as many blinds as possible, you may have a system where luck isn't needed . If you have the estate stat trainers, it shouldnt be but a few seconds to at least change the stat spread and test.

-> Just tested, it doesnt add to your mrm until the beginning of your turn, so no this strategy is not possible.

Maybe Logos can offset the blocking loss if you lowered charisma of the bun barrets ? You could utilize una poca spell with partial charisma trained, always go first w/ trained luck fully, and have the stats inflict help w/ luck and go blind-eater route by using blind potence shield in the beginning?

< Message edited by SapphireCatalyst2021 -- 11/14/2021 1:32:00 >

Post #: 9

11/14/2021 10:28:57

Mr. Roguish
Banned

@SapphireCatalyst2021

quote:

Also using the (i need to get this, just being lazy) light shield that offers -20 blind potence, you could gain celerity, wield this shield and try and inflict blind and the two turns of bun barrets plus blinds would yield a sizable chance at blocking. So *if* Logos keeps it's blocking basttle to battle, and iof you block the first turn, and then gain celerity, wield blind potence shield, inflict as many blinds as possible, you may have a system where luck isn't needed . If you have the estate stat trainers, it shouldnt be but a few seconds to at least change the stat spread and test

When it comes to stacking blind, I only find the Emancipator's Radiance relevant or even remotely useful is when I'm stacking blind via Absolute Darkness or blind via any other elemental affinity other than light. So outside of absolute darkness, I find it to be leagues more effective to use the chaser bracer (shield). I typically don't struggle inflicting blind via Alchemical Unity (weapon), Brilliance of DAW (misc), or chaser bracer individually, let alone together and stacking on each other. I feel sorry for anyone who likes to blind but don't have that combination as chaser bracer is perma-rare, it is... phenomenal almost all of the time ESPECIALLY with celerity.

However, the issue I ran into, is that I am increasing my chance to block/dodge way more than it needs to be where I could be finding ways to do more damage and hurry up and finish my opponent off to reduce even more drain on my resources of SP and/or MP. I theoretically could use the rainbow spell as you mentioned, however then I'm relying on status infliction, which while is usually successful, isn't always in the worst of times and still takes some time to build up which is a brief window of time that I am vulnerable and if the rainbow spell eats it for damage, is going to essentially reset that and make me vulnerable multiple times.

quote:

-> Just tested, it doesnt add to your mrm until the beginning of your turn, so no this strategy is not possible.

So far I've been using the hyperlean skyjdor (or whatever), and it's been working relatively fine; it can be activated before your turn during the equipment set up screen. Something I tried relative to what you're talking about is actually the Defender of Frostval past. If I remember correctly, it also can be cast before your turn, however it never seemed to be enough of a boost and I would still get hit too frequently for me to rely on it which is where I went to the hyperlean. Only flaw with that is that only the first hit is a guarantee block, so you'll be at the mercy of any other potential hit attempts. The silver lining is that most monsters only hit once, especially outside of a SP and MP move.

quote:

Maybe Logos can offset the blocking loss if you lowered charisma of the bun barrets? You could utilize una poca spell with partial charisma trained, always go first w/ trained luck fully, and have the stats inflict help w/ luck and go blind-eater route by using blind potence shield in the beginning?

Unfortunately I don't have the Una Poca spell. Additionally, with all being said about logos; if I fully switched over to it, then wouldn't be able to get the SP regen from the UltraGuardian shield. The SP regen I get from that helps me to
• gain further celerity's from SFP (if needed)
• activate armor skills
• inflict omni ele-vulnerability from zfinity power gauntlet
• inflict burn status from Sunburst amulet
• cast MP siphon (if needed)
• maintain guest (SP version)
• cast SP siphon from famine rapier to additionally get even more SP for all the other things previously mentioned and prevent my opponent from using their SP to use nukes (like auto hit ones) or buffs to make them more annoying to fight (increases to blocking, healing/HP regen, non hit required status inflictions, etc.)

While it might not have the highest MRM, currently I don't struggle to dodge via the UltraGuardian shield, so it's all benefit so far.

I don't mean to sound like I'm just trying to shoot down everything being suggested to me, I'm just working through my head of things to make sure I am extremely confident in using an ultra-rare GGB. I've also considered the potentiality that there might just not be anything in there currently worth me getting unfortunately.

What do people think about the Nekomancer deadly empress doll? I always contemplate a:
1. activate Purple Rain
2. stack up a bunch of whatever it is that builds the nuke later
3. deactivate PR
4. activate nuke?

But I never hear anyone even mention the misc.

< Message edited by Mr. Roguish -- 11/14/2021 10:51:07 >

Post #: 10

11/14/2021 19:33:14

Sapphire
Member

I own it. It's not good. It's essentially like a single harm damage per turn and treated like a guest attack. But the damage seems very low. Even stacking it's not that great. For a UR GGB, it's not good. It needs buffed a lot tbh. I hate buyers remorse for GGB.

The mystic rainbow spell, a UR GGB, eats blind for a very very large boost...it's a nuke if you have a good amount of blind. It should work as a finisher. If UR GGb are hard to come by, I can understand being timid to get it. But it IS a strong spell. Since there's not too much in the way of blocking helpers or "rogue" playstyles, I would recommend this spell.

At the end of the day, everyone has to sacrifice this, for that. Everyone has their preferences. You will not be able to keep SP, sit unhittable, do nukes, and have your cake and be able to eat your ice cream, too. And your posts in my opinion, do *kind of* come across this way.

If you want max blocking, you will need to sacrifice elsewhere. If you don;t want to sacrifice a first turn (no luck), but have better blocking the rest of the battle, then you will just have to play that way. If you desire luck over something else, you will not have what that something else provides.

If you want the *best* blocking, and deal good damage, I believe you will have to sacrifice luck . The best setup is 250 dex/int/charisma with the bun barrets. I would maybe always start in necromancer, get the barrier, then move into a blocking armor and if you get hit on the first turn, perhaps the little barrier will help.

I think you could also utilize quadforce. It's going to have a high SP cost, of course, but you could get luck trained and Int/Char/dex are options.

Maybe with quadforce, the SP heal shield, a SP regen weapon, etc could help offset the large SP drain and you could make it last a bit longer.

IDK what else to say, except the best blocking doesn't involve bun barrets, shields, or "blocking builds" It involves the game's mechanics, and perhaps a bit of a bug?
Like I told you in an earlier post, this yields you guaranteed blocking, but rquires winning the saves so it's risky: This is after PCO to darkness

Step 1. Celerity (I usually try and get 2 turns)
Step 2 Absolute Darkness
Step 3 Eclipse Shield Skill -> This is end of turn one. If everything lands perfectly, this yields 2 turns @ 20k, 30k, 40k+ blind. So it's 2 turns of guaranteed block.
Step 4- This is why I need another celerity, to give you 2 chances here. Inflict *any* blind, with the most important detail being the most TURNS as possible. This will change the 1 turn of -40k blind to something like X turns (the actual turns this last attempt tries for) @ maybe -1k, 2k blind.

So you will still get unhittable blind, but for more turns, at which point you can switch to whatever the heck you want and bombs away.

But even this takes up a LOT of time to set up. And the set up is why I tend to not play blocking builds that much. What I usually do and it's far less time consuming and underrated, is on a lucky beastmage or pure mage build, just get celerity, and PCO to Earth. Equip roots of daw misc. Cast Mandate twice while holding emancipator's radiance.. Right now vs 125% Earth, this got me : -540 dex, 6 rounds of -75 blind, 6 rounds of .306 choke, a growing HP barrier because I did it in Necromancer. Next turn, casted mandate again, 99 blind, and 0.075 choke for 6 rounds. 149 MP left (guest upkeep) PCO to darkness, and grasp essence (dual necromoglins, darkness cutlass) and it full healed my MP w/o bleed even being there. Then I essence orbed for full SP bar. Then grasp essenced, fear eater, w/o fear there, full healed HP. Now have 3 full bars, and not being hit. (running pure mage in this test) Easy peasy.

So I would either keep your UR GGB until something comes along, or go with the blind eater spell, Mystic rainbow or whatever it's called.

< Message edited by SapphireCatalyst2021 -- 11/14/2021 21:01:51 >

Post #: 11

11/15/2021 18:07:17

Mr. Roguish
Banned

@SapphireCatalyst2021

quote:

At the end of the day, everyone has to sacrifice this, for that. Everyone has their preferences. You will not be able to keep SP, sit unhittable, do nukes, and have your cake and be able to eat your ice cream, too. And your posts in my opinion, do *kind of* come across this way.

My build is completely made of sacrifices; the caveat is that they are calculated sacrifices that can be compensated in other ways:
• I sacrificed dodging via LUK and compensated it by using those stat points to gain dodging via CHA with banneretts
• I sacrificed initiative via LUK and compensated it by using a combination of the [Whispering Raiment + Ambush potion + Stalking Paw] with the Hyperleaon Skydjor shield for good measure (which the shield and armor prevent me from having an encompassing elemental inventory for both those categories)
• I sacrificed DEX for LUK for the initiative and compensated with the Moonwalker's Grace spell
• I sacrificed higher MRM via Logos shields and/or the Agony shield to gain the bonus of having SP regen from the Ultra-Guardian
• I sacrificed higher MRM via ghost costume to have higher damage via other armors (specifically Shadowfall Raiment)
• I sacrificed a spell slot to have the lightbringer transformation spell in an attempt to have an encompassing elemental inventory for armors
• I sacrificed pets and guests doing damage to gain the blocking that the banneretts give
• etc.; I could go on and on

Everything that I have sacrificed wasn't without thought before had as referenced to all the Q&A threads I linked in post #8. Unfortunately, there isn't the ability to test these items like I was able to do with everything else and I am trying my best to prevent as you mentioned "buyer's remorse". Again:

quote:

Post #10: I don't mean to sound like I'm just trying to shoot down everything being suggested to me, I'm just working through my head of things to make sure I am extremely confident in using an ultra-rare GGB. I've also considered the potentiality that there might just not be anything in there currently worth me getting unfortunately.

quote:

If you want max blocking, you will need to sacrifice elsewhere. If you don;t want to sacrifice a first turn (no luck), but have better blocking the rest of the battle, then you will just have to play that way. If you desire luck over something else, you will not have what that something else provides.

If you want the *best* blocking, and deal good damage, I believe you will have to sacrifice luck . The best setup is 250 dex/int/charisma with the bun barrets. I would maybe always start in necromancer, get the barrier, then move into a blocking armor and if you get hit on the first turn, perhaps the little barrier will help.

The point I'm trying to make, is that I already achieved BOTH being able to have initiative and decent blocking the rest of the battle, I've already essentially sacrificed LUK which is why it's only at 45. I regards to my prioritization of blocking to damage, I've already said that it isn't my goal nor my style to "sit unhittable":

quote:

Post #6: Correct, which is why I don't play a pure stereotypical dodge build. I used to do that, however:
• It didn't fit with the rogue theme of what I was trying to accomplish of just not really doing anything other than purely dodging
• There becomes a threshold of where so much increase to blocking/dodging really becomes irrelevant. Plus I never want to be 100% unhittable, just 99% lol
• I didn't like all crazy nuke damage everyone else was enjoying while it took 10 or more turns to kill a zard

The 99% was kind of a joke, however what good is a dodge build that can somewhat consistently get hit? I think a more realistic and preferable percentage would be along the lines of 86%-95%. I remember I did an equation a while ago to properly calculate precisely how often I wanted to dodge and the MRM necessary to achieve that that I will attempt to find. If I remember correctly it was something along the lines of wanting/being ok with being hit (following the 10 turns per battle model) [non-boss enemies = twice per 10 turns] / [boss enemies = once per 10 turns]

quote:

I think you could also utilize quadforce. It's going to have a high SP cost, of course, but you could get luck trained and Int/Char/dex are options.

Maybe with quadforce, the SP heal shield, a SP regen weapon, etc could help offset the large SP drain and you could make it last a bit longer.

I've already pretty much tried the Quadforce route and begged the question, not once, not twice, but three times... However I didn't have the shadowfall raiment when I was going through my testing phase, I will have much reflection to do to hypothesize whether or not such a thing would work now given the change of circumstances based on the information I had acquired in the past that I will have to refresh myself on.

< Message edited by Mr. Roguish -- 11/15/2021 18:17:40 >

Post #: 12

11/15/2021 21:59:15

Sapphire
Member

I find quadforce difficult to maintain, especially since the dragonlord weapons were fixed. it's only nice to use for a turn, or maybe 2. Like I like to use it for dex, if I NEED to make sure to land hits, like when I am setting up my absolute darkness-> eclipse shield blind setup.

I would imagine it's not going to be a viable option.

I would honestly just try mandate + roots of daw by PCO to Earth on a celerity round wielding blind shield. I thought the spell at first seemed counter, but now I think it's actually extremely powerful. The worse the earth resistance (for the monster), the better the effects get. Even if you do get a landed hit on you, the choke negates the extra damage from utilizing specific armors/shields set ups that arn't great versus certain resistances.
If you havnt done this, trust me, it's fantastic. Spend a couple turns to set thjis up, then switch to nuking.

< Message edited by SapphireCatalyst2021 -- 11/15/2021 22:00:55 >

Post #: 13

11/15/2021 22:25:23

Mr. Roguish
Banned

@SapphireCatalyst2021

Where can I find this "mandate"? Tried looking it up and couldn't find it so do you have the info subs too?

EDIT- Found it

< Message edited by Mr. Roguish -- 11/15/2021 23:13:57 >

Post #: 14

11/16/2021 0:02:18

Sapphire
Member

Been testing this all day with a pure mage setup and dual bun barrets and Necromancer spelslinger armor. Only have bleed toggled on to conserve SP.

Shadowfeeder for celerity, maybe 2 turns, wield Emancipator's Radiance,and roots of daw. PCO to earth first, but even 100% Earth is yielding outstanding results.

Assuming celerity (39.something blocking from bun barrets) after your turn.
These are if successful, and Necromancer's 7.5 status inflict built-in help. Vs 100% earth.

Celerity Round :
First cast->6 Rounds-30 blind, 0.722 Choke.
Second Cast-> 6 Rounds -60 blind, 0.445 Choke, and -432 entangle (wont show until monster's turn, but this is 2 turns, and -432 means -54 bth, so 114 added to defense, plus bunbarrets approx 40, for 154 total.

You will not be hit now.

Turn 2:
Third cast-> 6 Rounds 80 blind, and 0.26 Choke. 216 Entangle, or -27 bth, and 20 blocking from bun barrets. This is 127 blocking. Still likely won't be hit.

In addition, I have .75 Bleed on the monster, and have created 709 HP barrier. (Necro abilities) I have 280 MP left, and near full SP.

Switch to Titan's Fall, and I have darkness cutlass, and PCO to darkness-> Cast grasp Essence to consume the .75 bleed, and heal MP, did 4k+ damage, killing the monster and fully healing MP.

I have defeated Wabio, The new void monster, etc today and never got hit doing this. The only thing, is monster's with low resistances, this strategy is more risky as Mandate and daw's power depend on earth resist.
But this I have found is the *fastest* method to blocking, and without crazy clicking and set ups and PR Loops and all that stuff I hate.

This stacked blind I will test with the mystic rainbow spell for damage. Tested-->Does 200% damage (4k damage w/o lucky strikes) vs 115% light in Necromancer plus the light cutlass.

It's a great spell

Post #: 15

11/16/2021 0:41:38

Mr. Roguish
Banned

@SapphireCatalyst2021

Very interesting, I JUST picked up the mandate spell, I definitely like the long lasting effect that compliment a style that I'm suggesting with a revamp of the ninja and assassin class with a combination of blind and choke. I'll have to do some playing around to see if I can get similar effects without using necromancer which is quite literally, antithetical to my roleplaying. Maybe that's where that rainbow skill will come in with the damage your providing as you suggested.

I just wish there were more rogue aesthetically aligned gear. :(

Maybe if they had actually given us a shamnobi/ninjachaun armor back in 2018, using a rainbow spell would look a lot less jarring for a rogue lol.

< Message edited by Mr. Roguish -- 11/16/2021 0:42:47 >

Post #: 16

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