RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X

RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (Full Version)

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kittycat -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/18/2012 22:54:04)
Frenzy is doing fine the what it's supposed to do. The nature of 2 regular passives compensates for a debuff.

shadesofblue -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/19/2012 0:07:10)
@Steel Slayer My reasoning is that although Intimidate is a very powerful move, (although not as powerful as smokescreen) all the classes that currently have it either don't use it often/effectively (BM) or prefer other moves (Merc). Intimidate will be very powerful on TLM's though, because combined with Mineral Armor and Reroute, TLM's can loop Intimidate, which poses a very big problem for many builds nowadays. Taking out Frenzy is simply to balance the class. The reason why a defensive Debuff is better for TLM is because a TLM's have proven to be very, very strong with a offensive debuff(STR TLM's at least), so a defensive debuff would give the class a good fighting chance, yet not make them a OP STR quick-kill class.

NDB -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/19/2012 1:40:58)
I think that BH and CH are too similar. All the BH and CH builds these days are the same in 1v1: smoke/ malfunction + massacre. One uses physical attacks and one uses energy. It was only when they added plasma armor to CHs that they started to be a little more different but its still basically the same because the extra shield just makes up for loss of health gain by BHs. And if your thinking "Static Charge... duh", most CH get a ton of energy anyways because their scared of block static and don't end up using energy they get when it isn't. Let's take a look at the other skills too... Bounty Hunter l Cyber Hunter Field Medic l Field Medic Cheap Shot l Cheap Shot EMP Grenade l EMP Grenade Multi Shot l Multi Shot Smoke Screen l Malfuntion Venom Strike l Venom Strike Shadow Arts l Shadow Arts Massacre l Massacre Stun Grenade l Plasma Grenade Energy Shield l Defense Matrix That's 10 out of 12 skill that are the same or the same idea. The only skills that make the classes different are Bloodlust and Reflex with BH, and Plasma Armor and Static with CH.

ScarletReaper -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/19/2012 8:42:20)
That's probably because cyber is an evolved form. Of course they are going to be similar as they are both still hunters. I mean Here's the mercs mineral armor/hybrid armor surgical strike/surgical strike Artillery strike/Artillery strike Double strike/Double strike Atom smasher/Atom smasher field medic/field medic Field commander/Blood commander For mages Overcharge/Overcharge Plasma bolt/Fireball Plasma rain/Plasma rain Supercharge/Supercharge Bludgeon/Bludgeon Field medic/Field medic Deadly aim/Deadly aim Defense Matrix/Energy shield It's not just the hunters. :D

Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/19/2012 9:56:10)
Scarletreaper you forgot some moves for both the merc and tech merc tree. Also if you think the classes are too alive you can thank several nerfs to the classes. They started out with several different moves, however due to certain classes dominating others or in this case winning too much they changed moves. I remember when blood mages had bezerker but instead of bludgeon, but then they were doing the 2 round kill almost every match so they changed it. But on another subject something I would like to see changed is the agility thing. It doesn't seem to count for anything anymore. I mean they make these drawbacks to try and make agility worth having, but no a days due to the imbalance in power to the classes having that extra agility isn't even worth it anymore unless you are a dex and tech tank. Especially when fighting strength builds. Also the drawbacks when people spam stats is also too weak as well because not only does it not stop them from doing this anyways but it just makes it even worse for those who don't do this and worse to wear 9/10 of the time they always come out on top. Personally I think something should be done to make it actually worth keeping full agility and not going overboard with spamming a stat/stats just to win.

ReinXI -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/19/2012 10:15:25)
hmm how about... agility 100 +2 def/ resist +1 dmg 90 +0 def/ resist +0 dmg 80 -2 def/ resist -2 dmg 70 -6 def/ resist -4 dmg 60 -9 def/ resist -8 dmg 50- -12 def/ resist -12 dmg or something along those lines?

theholyfighter -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/19/2012 11:12:54)
A Nerf to Blood Mages...... What makes str BMs that OPed is because of these( I believe ): 1. Bloodlust 2. Fireball 3. Deadly Aim Since the 1st and 3rd will affect other classes nerfing Fireball may be the best option. Make it improve with support? How about adding a function to Agility. Stats that are overused will cause some kind of def/resis reduction.

Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/19/2012 11:22:09)
They already have that however, the number starts at 50+ and goes even further at 85+ stat points. Most people never go that go past 50 with that stat let alone 85. Plus don't forget about the enhancements which don't even add into this. most abusers would just use 49 points at the most to avoid this, and use enhancement to power up even more without worry of that backlash. The only way it would effect them is if they are the health spammers, and health spammers 9/10 still win even with the backlashes so as I said before unless you are a dex and tech tank the agility isn't worth squat.

theholyfighter -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/19/2012 11:25:11)
I mean for eg having 28+35 str =63 primary damage (free!) and that is surely Oped. Needs an additional Agility that not only applies to health but also other stats.

ReinXI -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/19/2012 11:36:14)
holy look at page 16 I put a post on something like you said.. they really just need to find a way to make it to where enhancements are counted into stat checks so you cant get around using loopholes in the system...

Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/19/2012 11:40:10)
If I misread the information it is not the total of points with stats that causes the drawback, but the number of points you add to them. Let's just Blood mage for an example Blood mages starts with 22 strength. However, with the way they make the drawbacks (If I am not mistaken) Blood mage could go up to 71 strength without the drawback even kicking in since it takes 50 stat points for the drawback to kick in but they only used 49. Now add the enhancements to the class (which are drawback free) and depending on what the equipment you have equipped you have a very powerful strength mage with the only draw back being in the health department since most strength mages use high health and bloodlust to cover for the lack of defense. Plus when you look at most build no one really uses more then 50 points on any stat even the 140 health blood mages don't you 50 stat points with this it is only 47 which is more then enough to keep from getting that drawback (Even though they are getting the lower agility one) Now what I suggest is to make the drawback number lower then 50 lets say 40 and make the second one 65. Some may call this unfair but at the same time this would not only help beat the the stat spammer, but encourage more balance with the other stats without nerfing skills.

NDB -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/19/2012 17:29:02)
quote: That's probably because cyber is an evolved form. Of course they are going to be similar as they are both still hunters. I mean Here's the mercs Yea i know but what about merc build vs tactical merc builds, and tech mage builds vs blood mage builds? Tey're completely different and impossible to make similar builds with. Like i sid before, Ch and BH both make malf/smoke + massacre builds.

edwardvulture -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/19/2012 19:06:38)
Just take away enhancements from guns and auxes. It's that easy. There is no reason for this whole discussion.

Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/19/2012 19:11:05)
Edwardvulture if that was done people would still spam stat points and just change equipment to fit the build they want. Besides even if they took the enhancements off of guns and auxs there is still primary's and armors. some of those have even better stats then aux's and guns so it would still be the same. I still think lowering the number needed for backlash on stats is the way to go since even with the health backlash stat spammers still spam health and even with the current backlash they still dominate.

Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/19/2012 19:11:56)
And people who enhanced it all? What about weapons sold? Can they track them? Won't value of Varium change because of lack of enhancements? If refunds are given, ED will lose on it and there may be other ways to solve it. You see it as a simple thing by saying one sentence but it isn't.

Promiscuous -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/20/2012 4:36:11)
Give back technician to tlms, blood shield is more than useless.

Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/20/2012 4:48:58)
Especially since the balancing of moves nerfed just about every move that was affected. Plus for all those who think this could be abused with Tech merc the only move improved with this would be the surgical strike which is the only move that is powered by tech with this class so it would be a lot harder to abuse this for this class.

King Helios -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/20/2012 9:37:29)
Switch Stun Grenade to improving with Tech, Plasma to Dex, and buff them a bit.

Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/20/2012 12:35:26)
Sorry for the long reply. quote: Trans, tech mage and Wootz, a Cyber Hunter both have malfunction but one will EMP you to death. So we know why they don’t want nothing improving tech with improving resistance just as good as or better than E-shield they want to make sure Plasma Cannon is useless for a couple of turns while they either EMP you to death or use Assimilation on you while waiting for malfunction to wear off. This skill would not make the Blood Mage overpowered but I already know Calogero and other Blood Mages that hates me would go along with the non Blood Mage Classes and try to make any ideas or suggestions that is not their own go away and they act like they speaking for the whole community. If you are a Blood Mage that would like to use Plasma Cannon more often and get energy return back when you have an resistance type shield then why wouldn’t you want a shield like I suggested. So, umad for us having an debuff because we can't have a huge output of damage like you do? Oh and EMP Grenade ain't always used. I only use it in one build, and it takes away 38 EP at level 7 then. And even if we take your EP you can lay out a huge ammount of damage on us. Aslong as your strikes aren't blocked you'll be fine, which happens really rarerly... Make a Plasma Cannon build then if you want it so badly, I wanted a Support build and now I have it and I get around 90% win ratio (better then most of the current Blood Mages & Cyber Hunters on the LeaderBoards). quote: So Wootz tell everyone as a Cyber Hunter what can be done to the abusive high-energy draining skills? You are asking me about Massacre & Venom strike, because none of the other skills don't cost a lot of Energy. quote: Tell us Wootz if everyone is so tired of seeing strength Blood Mages and a skill will make it desirable to change builds would you not want that skill? Firstly. Your skill WILL NOT do that. It can already be done, only everyone enyoys being over-powered. quote: Or would you rather keep seeing strength builds among the Blood Mage Class and keep complaining about does builds with the lack of understanding why Blood Mages have to have high stats? Do, tell me about the high stats. A general 5 Focus build works just as well, also Support build has a good shot! quote: quote: Trans, I don't ignore anyone's opinions for one and you are incorrect about my post as usual. That what was the comment with Trans having Malf (TM) and Wootz being CH and having EMP? Sorry but I see no connection with EMP since Tech/Res does NOT affect it.. Or was it biased because he's a CH? Besides I have Physical weapons too, I can crush through Energy Shield when BMs or BHs use it against me, I can get through majority of builds using Focus 5 TM with Gamma Bot. Mind you, my Physical attacks are Primary and the Bot so they are both Blockable + deflectable special. My point is, your skill is overkill if you want Tech boost ALONG with Resistance Boost (on top of Tech) and 15% regen when hit. I don't mind Energy Version of Reflex WITHOUT Res boost like you said. For once I'd agree with you since Tech doesn't raise blocks unlike Dex and wouldn't render the regen useless. What Trans said. You can't judge us by what class we are. I use Physical blades and my builds are unique, so you can't really biase your comments by our classes. Every skill you post here is an overkill and you obviously can't "nerf" it down a bit. quote: I think that BH and CH are too similar. All the BH and CH builds these days are the same in 1v1: smoke/ malfunction + massacre. One uses physical attacks and one uses energy. It was only when they added plasma armor to CHs that they started to be a little more different but its still basically the same because the extra shield just makes up for loss of health gain by BHs. And if your thinking "Static Charge... duh", most CH get a ton of energy anyways because their scared of block static and don't end up using energy they get when it isn't. Let's take a look at the other skills too... Bounty Hunter l Cyber Hunter Field Medic l Field Medic Cheap Shot l Cheap Shot EMP Grenade l EMP Grenade Multi Shot l Multi Shot Smoke Screen l Malfuntion Venom Strike l Venom Strike Shadow Arts l Shadow Arts Massacre l Massacre Stun Grenade l Plasma Grenade Energy Shield l Defense Matrix That's 10 out of 12 skill that are the same or the same idea. The only skills that make the classes different are Bloodlust and Reflex with BH, and Plasma Armor and Static with CH. - This argument ain't aimed towards me, but oh well. Both Hunter classes are very versitale, both can do Strenght, Dexterity, Technology, Support or 5 Focus builds with great funcionality, sometimes two of those things (like me for example, I abuse both Strenght and Support with Delta daggers as a Cyber Hunter). I don't really understand where you are going with that post so, I'll just leave this like it is. Cyber Hunters somewhat have a higher durability and a bigger Energy Pool, but that doesn't mean that all of us are tankers with 70+ EP. Do you have any propositions to "fix" this then?

Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/20/2012 13:33:09)
I do have a Plasma cannon Dex build with support higher of 50 battles today I have only got critical damage twice and the average damage I been getting was between 35 and 37 one time I only got 20. Well the multis need to be balanced out again due to that Artillery strike improving with support I have seen get Critical damage in non-rage and Critical damage at rage, while the multi-shot and Plasma Rain improves with Dex and getting Critical damage on those two will be a low to non-existence of a chance for critical strike. The only two classes that can improve their damage of the multis are the Tech Mage and the Cyber Hunter while the Bounty Hunters and Blood Mages can't. what can be done about it tell me because before the change the multis were not balance and will anything be done probably not until the next phase begins when three new classes are introduced. For right now the all the stats need to be looked and recoded This tact merc had 87: 20-24 strength was getting 30 damage with each strike I already have high dex, I put on level 3 reflex boost and he still got 30 damage so I intimidated him he still got 30 damage. So tell me something is not wrong with the stats with all my defense and lowering his strength he still got the same damage over and over again.

King Helios -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/20/2012 13:34:58)
^ You need a bigger Reflex Boost. It only raises your DEF by 6. (Fought you before). Give Tactical Mercs Maul , please!

midnight assassin -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/20/2012 13:51:45)
quote: I think that BH and CH are too similar. All the BH and CH builds these days are the same in 1v1: smoke/ malfunction + massacre. One uses physical attacks and one uses energy. It was only when they added plasma armor to CHs that they started to be a little more different but its still basically the same because the extra shield just makes up for loss of health gain by BHs. And if your thinking "Static Charge... duh", most CH get a ton of energy anyways because their scared of block static and don't end up using energy they get when it isn't. Let's take a look at the other skills too... Bounty Hunter l Cyber Hunter Field Medic l Field Medic Cheap Shot l Cheap Shot EMP Grenade l EMP Grenade Multi Shot l Multi Shot Smoke Screen l Malfuntion Venom Strike l Venom Strike Shadow Arts l Shadow Arts Massacre l Massacre Stun Grenade l Plasma Grenade Energy Shield l Defense Matrix That's 10 out of 12 skill that are the same or the same idea. The only skills that make the classes different are Bloodlust and Reflex with BH, and Plasma Armor and Static with CH. Then change me. I don't know what the tone of you're post is but, base on my understanding, you're saying that bh is nearly the same in terms of winning as ch? I have to admit that majority of bh use the old school smoke + str + massacre. But I know how to counter them easily(depends). I'm using a balanced build(actually 4 focus but I did re-modify it with focusing on the power of emp + sa+ss-massacre). I do admit that the core skill of most of the bh like me is smoke screen. But when you guys malf us, it creates a chain reaction because remember smoke and emp seriously increases by tech. So I wonder how come the win ratio of bh and ch is almost the same. Also if a bh smoke you, it can be easily countered by a defense matrix and if we emp you, you can use static. If you emp us, do you think we can regenerate ep easily? Reflex boost will do but do you think it's enough? Remember also that you're emp can also hurt our massacre while our emp will sometimes be nothing than a waste of turn.

Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/20/2012 13:53:16)
If TLMs are sooooo underpowered apparently, where are Mercenaries on the balance scale? Do they even make it there or is TLM even more UP?

midnight assassin -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/20/2012 13:57:20)
^That's why I find it weird on how come tlm complains even if they got the skills good for regenerating + tanking.

Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/20/2012 14:10:48)
It's simple after skills, it's a Tank Class. Someone said before that each class should be able to do all kind of builds (was it Mr. Black OP?), but it's wrong. How can you run very Tank build with BM when you lack defensive skills and skills revolve around offence? TLMs are tank class, you can see that it has passive Armor and EP Regen which makes it good for Tank/High HP builds, as well as Poison which works well with good Strength or Tank build. Looking at SS, you can spam Tech so it's also defensive stat in a way as it will raise your Res & Def is taken care of by Mineral Armor. Frenzy allows HP regen as much as SC allows EP regen in non-passive way so you can still get a power build. New Infernal Android - with tank build, TLMs should have even more advantages since they can easily get to the Bot's cap and deal 150% damage which is great with high Tech as well (mix of SS and Bot, perhaps combined with good Heal?). TLMs are a tank class, BMs are more of glass cannons/offensive class, TMs are similar to BMs but a bit tankier (Reroute is the key), Mercs are somewhat tanks but with good defence, CHs are tanks too with good offence, and BHs are like BMs but a bit different style and skills.

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