RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (Full Version)

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Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/13/2012 1:52:09)

Drianx only the bot's special is unblockable, as I seen the regular attack blocked before, and it is also the special that supercharged not the regular attack.

Now as for the nerfing I don't agree with making i blockable. It is a energy attack in the form of a beam, so if anything make it deflectable instead of blockable if a nerf must be done. On the second one that one seems reasonable, but as I stated before the regular attack is indeed blockable just not the special so the regular attack deal with just the person's focus +tech.



Drianx -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/13/2012 4:22:39)

@Mother1

I know only the energy attack is unblockable. That's why the bot is more useful for malfunction classes and less useful for other classes, therefore unbalanced.

And no, finding a logic for why it is unblockable doesn't make sense since it has been done before. Gamma bot also had an energy beam attack that has always been blockable.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/13/2012 4:26:23)

Mr. Black OP, you're my hero with that post. xD



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/13/2012 4:32:42)

drianx In actually the only reason why I said deflectable instead of blockable is because if it is following the delta vault mold then making it blockable would be going off the mold. Deflectable on the other hand would follow that said mold because when we fought with the vault we couldn't block the laser only deflect it.

But on the subject of gamma's energy attack being blockable I think that should have been deflectable as well since every other energy or unblockable attack that involved projectiles or weapons was in fact deflectable. You might think it is wrong, but then again everyone is entitled to their opinion and I just think if it has to be nerfed make it deflectable to follow the delta vault mold.



Drianx -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/13/2012 5:00:15)

@mother1
Even deflectable, the bot would still be horribly strong, and would make CH as overpowered as no class has ever been in epicduel.

it woulda been easier to put an 'Instant Win' button for CH instead of 1v1 button.



Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/13/2012 5:24:15)

Thank you Trans.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/13/2012 5:44:49)

Drianx cyber hunter has been overpowered way before the new bot even came into play. So trying to say the bot would make them overpowered isn't a good reason since they are already overpowered in the first place. Heck with my alts, I see the lower levels class changing to cyber hunter. Here is a way to balance the classes remove all the passive armors and replace them with other skills (Since BH TM and BM don't have passive armors) That way no one will have them, and no one could complain about one class losing their passive armor while the others still have it.

Also remember deflection only does half the damage so with a very high deflection (Say 50 chance of deflection without much tech) rate they would have to wait even longer for the attack to do a real good amount of Damage and you would have a good chance to live without the worry of having a worthless attack while still following the delta vault mode.

Making it have any kind of block rate would be making it like the gamma bot (Which I still say should have a deflectable not blockable energy attack) plus take it away from the delta vault mold.



drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/13/2012 8:10:09)

For the robot, maybe lower the cap to around a soft cap of 40 damage maximum on player battles and the current cap on NPCs?

I assume it was meant to make NPC battles easier...



darksorrow -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/13/2012 8:27:08)

Since everyone's complaining about the new bot, I'll present a proposal:
First off: the way I see it, the "point" of the bot is to make tank builds relevant again.
any crazy nerf that will make the bot underpowered destroys the purpose of the bot, as no one will use it anymore. for example, I read a post about " making it so the bot has a 50% chance to be blocked". yeah, no.
however, I agree that the new bot is too overpowered, and it kind of limits the options of players.
Therefore, I propose that we should make it so the bot can only be used well by tankier players.
I think that the bot should gain damage slower, maybe 1/2 x, but have a larger damage cap.
That way, we reward tankier players who mean to stall, while making it so casually built 5 focus players have a harder time making use of the bot.
Go on, epicduel community, constructive criticism.



Rui. -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/13/2012 8:46:21)

i have to support hunking on the whole emp and atom smash thing. As a focus user its totally devastating to have a 40+ emp or atom hit your face. What overpowerd robot are we talking about. The robot isnt that great if you cant survive for 4 turns. You tell me what can a focus blood mage do with 0 energy. Its the only class that cant steal energy. You guys whine about strength blood mage. Have you played one. Have you played a blood mage where you go focus and some kid emps you them malfs you making your gun and aux deflect. The designers didnt give blood mages a diverse build option. If you say no they can go tech blah blah give me a video of you playing a blood mage and winning with a non strength build. Those who have fought me know how much skill it takes to play a focus blood mage.

With that said. The robot does the same damage weather you are a mage or a cyber so whats the deal. You guys cant take change ? You want to play the same game with no change is it ?

On a serious note blood mages need technician and defence matrix. Supercharge needs to be changed to assimilation a better version if possible. I have never seen a supercharge blood Mage.

Stop picking on hunking, i dont know him but you cant understand the pain blood mages go thru when we get emped.



Drianx -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/13/2012 8:54:25)

quote:

any crazy nerf that will make the bot underpowered destroys the purpose of the bot, as no one will use it anymore. for example, I read a post about " making it so the bot has a 50% chance to be blocked". yeah, no.

Yeah right that didn't keep them from releasing pyro fly or baby yeti, bots that are barely used. And they were much more expensive.

Also there are tons of weapons who are barely used because of crap stat boosts.

I said high block chance in case they want to preserve its damage output. If they are to nerf the damage, then well it doesn't make sense making it blockable, does it?

If you don't understand someone's comment, how about not quoting it?



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/13/2012 9:09:35)

@drian Both Yeti and Pyro have their uses. Yeti is great to use against people who rely on guns and auxes for damage rather than their primary due to low strength or low dex. Pyro is random but it can easily destroy an entire build if it takes away something like an Ultimate or Field Medic or another staple skill.

1. Lower how fast the damage progresses on the bot. Even with malf on the other guy he still manages to hit 60+ with the bot before we even get past round 4.
2. It needs to be more focused on Focus damage because I get hit way too hard with it against 3/4 focus.
3. The cap needs lowered too if there is one.

4. Return the old and slower strength scaling back to Fireball.



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/13/2012 9:23:08)

Mr. Black Op, according to your character page you are a Cyber Hunter and Cyber Hunters don't use Plasma Cannon so you can't say it crits just as often as bunker buster. I have been using it in the past day or so and it does not crit as much as bunker buster especially on the Level 34 and 35 hunter classes on players with lower support even before I get malfunctioned. so either something wrong with the Plasma canon or their is something truely wrong with the support stat.

No, it was not a typo, that player did have high tech with levl 3 EMP.

With technician the Blood Mage did not have to poor stats into tech they could have low tech and use technician if the wanted and that is the problem with any skill the Blood Mage has. E shield just raises resistance and just a regular strike from a cyber hunter with it on I have seen them get the same or more damage.

I have had dex way higher than Cyber Hunters while they block I don't with high dex I don't even block berzerker but I have seen Hunters block bezerker over and over again with low dex.

Did I write anywhere Blood Mages need a buff, no I did not, the Blood Mages need new skills that works better with the skills they are meant to have not skills from other non mage classes. If it is a buff to change out the skills with better skills that will bring balance and variety to the Blood Mage class than what is wrong with that?

Who made these changes to the skill tree of the Blood Mages was it players or staff? Last time I checked was staff. Before all the changes you have seen a variety of builds, then as change after change you seen that variety disappear. Before the change to the multi you started seeing more multi builds then after the change how many do you see now, lucky to see one because it takes too much dex and too much energy to get any real damage out of Plasma rain. So yes staff should take 99% of the blame for the influx of strength builds.

Until you change your main character to a Blood Mage and really test every skill and every stat level you will not understand how much work the Blood Mage skill tree is needed. Or how EMP and Atom smasher creates balance issues by the players abusive excessive use just to be nasty and basically being bullies.

Leave the new bot alone Legion, since the vast majority of complaints came from legion especially when Exiles got it and started using it.



zion -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/13/2012 9:46:44)

Can we just make the new bot rare? A reward for participating in the war? The assault bot/rusted assault bot is still super effective for spamming builds and is free...
--Noiz



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/13/2012 9:54:00)

quote:

Until you change your main character to a Blood Mage and really test every skill and every stat level you will not understand how much work the Blood Mage skill tree is needed.

Why not secondary? Main makes no difference and we can have our opinion without playing as one but fighting them or speaking with people who are BMs. You have no right to tell others that their ideas are stupid or MERCS are OP like you said in the past, until you play as one. I hate that logic since it makes no sense but using it to but yourself above all. Tech also affects Blocks, am I right? Forgot that when you said Tesla blocks more than Delta Knight, or something like that? Or buff for Delta Knight for Classes with no passive Armors to give you +7/8 Def AND Res?

quote:

Leave the new bot alone Legion, since the vast majority of complaints came from legion especially when Exiles got it and started using it.

Biased statement. Anyone can see it's OP, and ND Mallet is an Exile and sees it as OP. I know many other people who say it's OP already and it destroys balance completely, and they are Exile. Balance has NO effect on whoever is Legion or Exile. If I say Exiles are OP just because they are, it makes no sense. I'm Legion and I say BMs need nerf to Str builds and you put blame on Staff? Oh irony, what was your skill again? Passive EP, HP and passive Armor in one or something along these lines because BMs are UP.. We have our own opinions, your have your own, but don't butt in into them just to prove us wrong because there is NO true or false; you perceive something to be true to be used for your own convenience and to favour you and see others to be false. No. That's your opinion and you see it as a fact because it benefits you not us, and try to prove us wrong because we suggest things for our convenience. There's no true or false, there's only facts.



Minus123 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/13/2012 9:55:41)

^
quote:

Mr. Black Op, according to your character page you are a Cyber Hunter and Cyber Hunters don't use Plasma Cannon so you can't say it crits just as often as bunker buster. I have been using it in the past day or so and it does not crit as much as bunker buster especially on the Level 34 and 35 hunter classes on players with lower support even before I get malfunctioned. so either something wrong with the Plasma canon or their is something truely wrong with the support stat.


Blame luck. Can't say that just because one person is not experiencing crits, that it's not critting more for someone else.

quote:

Until you change your main character to a Blood Mage and really test every skill and every stat level you will not understand how much work the Blood Mage skill tree is needed. Or how EMP and Atom smasher creates balance issues by the players abusive excessive use just to be nasty and basically being bullies.


It's only logical for them to use emp or atom if you have skills that can damage them alot, it is not a balance issue (But plasma armor is). Solution to your predicament, get more energy. I don't see much work in a bloodmages skill tree, seeing as how the majority of the population just use fireball, bludgeon, and DA

quote:

I have had dex way higher than Cyber Hunters while they block I don't with high dex I don't even block berzerker but I have seen Hunters block bezerker over and over again with low dex.

berzerker doesn't get blocked more than other melee skills (Atleast it doesn't say that as far as I know). And funny, I have the same experience with bloodmages, how I never block their strikes despite them having 20 defense, and me having 30, they block me instead.

Anyway, for the bot, I'm liking the idea of the decreased damage progression, but I don't agree on a cap



Rui. -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/13/2012 10:05:07)

all cyber think they are boss. Unlimited energy. Tons of defences and amazing debuff. The number of players that play this game is over 20k the number of posters here are less than 100. Same old people same complaints and rants. Why was deflection ever moved to tech ? Some 20 ranted this like a prayer over and over. Right now support is a dead stat. No class should Have the right to steal other players energy. Get some skill then cheap gameplay.

I was a cyber for 6 months. Hardly lost any fight. Just used to emp On first turn. It got boring and just not my style of winning a fight. I was even cursed for using emp. Seriously they need to make a test server where 100 experienced players can test different skills before implementing tim. I changed to cyber and technician and static was nerfed. Changed to bm and my zerk went. Why should we bare the cost for nerf. I say go nerf do what you like but the moment you change a skill give a refund. Not our fault if the class is op, its poor testing. Take this up and work on it.

@trans
there is a difference when your main is a bm. Looks like you just want to pick a fight by the way you are posting. If he does not have a right to say you dont have the right to talk about his right.

Tech does not improve your block rate. You are wrong.

More energy is not the solution. Supercharge was made for mages where they have a pool of energy with their passive. A blood mage cant afford to spend 59 energy on it just to get emped. Making a new class with old patch and paste does not work well and blood mage is the perfect example.

And just cause 20 people say the bot is op over and over every 5 minutes does not make it op. He you have a katana and i have a katana it comes down to who has the skill to wield it right. He you guys fail at fighting opponents with the same robot no one can help you.

Enough said.



Minus123 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/13/2012 10:16:42)

^
quote:

all cyber think they are boss. Unlimited energy. Tons of defences and amazing debuff. The number of players that play this game is over 20k the number of posters here are less than 100. Same old people same complaints and rants. Why was deflection ever moved to tech ? Some 20 ranted this like a prayer over and over. Right now support is a dead stat. No class should Have the right to steal other players energy. Get some skill then cheap gameplay.


Why is everyone blaming cyber? First of all, I'd like to remind everyone that little if any people complained about cybers having emp before plasma was added. A good number of CH's even agree to the removal of PA, which shows that not ALL cybers think they're boss.

I like how people focus on CH's too, not even mentioning 'remove bh emp'. Also, judging by your post, you were a bm when zerk was still there, and they were op back then too, even more so, i recall.

All I ask is stop hammering on CH; we all know what's wrong with it, and it sure as hell ain't the emp.



Rui. -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/13/2012 10:23:51)

minus looks like you never met my old cyber. I had 140 dex and decent tech. I would just technician and do a 72 emp. I got screen shot to show you my level 4 emp doing 70+ so you want that back is it. Emp needs to go from a cyber. The balance tracker can only give you win % but sure as hell cant measure player grivence. Mercs and bounty having energy stealing is ok cause they cant regen energy. Cyber and tlm ... Messed up unlimited energy drain.

Dont support cyber minus. Support the game. If your are a cyber this is for you.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/13/2012 10:41:03)

Rui, I know Tech doesn't affect Blocking.. Hun said so that Armors do and so does Tech, even seen it on Twitter so I'm not that dumb to believe Tech affects Blocking (I did state it clear in my post..).



Rui. -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/13/2012 10:49:15)

trans your post is misleading and more of i want to pick a fight. Hun is entitled to his opinion its for the developers to decide and work on it. You dont have to pick on suggestions and discussions.
Firstly they dont concern you and secondly it makes no difference what you think about it. He/me anyone have a concern we will voice it. You dont have to pick on it. You want a fight i will give you one stick to pm. You last post to black op stating he is your hero is unwanted and unethical. If you liked it you can private message. You do not have common courtesy. In this game all are equal and ur no exception. Moreover everytime i read your post it reminds me of high school kids bullying.



DestruRaGe -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/13/2012 10:56:44)

Str Blood mages are still OPest. Absolutely no strategy, they got low dex but still rarely get blocked! I smoke them and i have lv 10 shadow arts and no block...
Im asking you what is this?



khalidon5000 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/13/2012 11:00:06)

@Hun Kingq
Here is a quote from the first page by Mecha Mario :
quote:

No "luck" complaints - This thread is not a place to complain about an unlucky streak that caused you to lose a match. Please remember that while luck may seem to favor or disfavor you in the short run, over the long run it does average out.


Also these personal attacks on people are really annoying me.
@Rui Trans was just showing how much he supported Black Op's statement, you seem to have exaggerated it alot by comparing it to bullying.

Let's just stick to creating balance rather then attacking each other.
On that note, I do agree the bot needs a slight nerf but let's not overdo it and make the bot useless.

@Rui I just pmed you.



Rui. -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/13/2012 11:07:26)

what do you mean i exaggerated ? Looks like you incompetent to understand the difference. Read my post before you comment. If you want to stick to balance discussion do so. Dont rant and preach at the same time. If you were so keen on doing what you said you wouldnt have posted what u did above.



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/13/2012 11:09:21)

@Hun your leaving the important factor of Shadow arts off the table in your post. We do not know the level of shadow arts or how much of an advantage of your dex to theirs so we cannot tell if your dex advantage was in fact canceled and they had the higher block rate because of Shadow Arts.

Now for nerfing the bot either slightly tweak the scaling for damage so it doesn't scale as quickly or lower the cap damage of it's special. Both of those would weaken the bot by some extent whether it is to your liking or not is beyond me but if it isn't I'm sure we will hear it here



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