RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (Full Version)

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Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/14/2012 1:36:06)

quote:

Wootz The reason static was nerfed once again because people were complaining about CH using it in heal loops. Not to mention it was overpowered, and the majority of CH (80% if not all) over relyed on this skill while never training there energy. It was a must have for just about every hunter. If this isn't more proof I remember some CH wanting the Pyro fly's ability changed for the sole purpose that it had the chance of shutting down static If that isn't over relying on a skill to win then I don't know what is. Also as it has been said many times by people as well as myself for someone to gain 11-15, 15-16 or even 17-19 energy back from a strike that can do 3-7 damage at times is OP and unbalanced. It seems the only reason you are complaining about PA because it was what caused the nerfing to Static to where it is now.


Is there any other skill that Cyber Hunters don't use? o.o
About Energy training, having a Tech Mage with a low ammount of defense & resistance, huge Health pool and with a Support build makes even a bigger Energy pool then Cyber Hunters have, while having base EP. Who were those Cybers Hunters? I don't remember. If any did, if other skills like passives were allowed to be shutted down, the classes would complain, and Static Charge is a static passive. No, getting 30 EP back was OP'd and unbalanced, 15+/- was a perfectly good ammount. Obviously, the class ran for 8 months on it and we still lost quite much.

quote:

Now for the must have skills. Caster TM don't use deadly aim. Reroute yes but not Deadly aim. So for this kind of build it isn't a must have skill.

Not from what I see, most of those Tech Mages use it, some don't. But most do. And I don't remember mentioning that I wrote what builds are the skills used for...

quote:

Not all bounty hunters use massacre plus this isn't even a passive skill. While a lot of them use this skill not all of them do.

Most Bounty Hunters are Strenght abusers, therefore they use Massacre, since the game launched, Strenght BH was great, I tried it a few weeks ago, and I easily won any battle. Energy drain? Boosters.

quote:

There are a lot of mercs who don't even use adrenaline since the skill is broken for several builds. Plus Hybrid armor is a must, however the only reason for this is because the class doesn't have any defensive buffing skills unlike the rest of the classes. The only one it has was replaced for the broken adrenaline to balance the classes and if you were to nerf Hybrid armor mercs would be at even more at the mercy of the other classes.

It can still be useful for other builds, like having a Berserker up to 7 is so great.

quote:

Now onto the plasma armor thing. Now let me get this straight you want Plasma armor removed so Static can go back to the way it was even if it means that the class in a whole would go back to be underpowered (since that is what mostly everyone who used the class before PA came) just so you can get high amounts of energy from a strike that might actually do only 3-7 for some? That sounds extremely selfish to be honest, and more like the people wanting this OP skill to remain in the dark so it could be abused.

I want it removed because it makes the class more powerfull then the others, purerly to having a great damage output with tanking abilities and luck infested blocking abilities. Removing it, ofcourse would make the class UP'd for a bit, so I am proposing a buff to Static Charge if it goes that way. 15 EP, more/less isn't that much. What do you mean by "people wanting this OP skill to remain in the dark so it could be abused" - do you mean that people want it to stay like this so that they can win easily?

quote:

Now for all your other complaints about other skills, if they are indeed OP as some say and the admins see it they will indeed nerf them like they did Static and every thing else that has been OP.

What skills? Where did I wrote what was over-powered?



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/14/2012 4:49:19)

For my last statement Wootz I was talking about when you mentioned all passives skills and must haves for all classes needed a nerf since static got so nerf.

Also ever since static got it's latest nerf I have seem plenty of new topics lately making suggestions on how to buff static up most say put static back the way it was, while some posters like you and rainsdays56 posted Plasma armor caused all this. Now if Plasma armor was never never put into play what do you think were the chances that the staff would have noticed that Static was OP? They might have found it out, but from what I read in posts they most likely wouldn't have which meant static would have remained OP which what I meant about the skill overpowerness beening left in the dark.

Heck while some have adapted and now train their energy, I still see a few users still complaining about how static needs to go back to raw damage and give back the old amount of energy. That amount of energy for most on an average was 15. For me when I used the class it was 15 or 16 at max. While I never got a hit of 3-7 while doing this since I trained my strength there are those who don't train their strength and yet they still got the full 15-16 or even 11-15 energy back because of the base strength of their weapon while striking low damage sometimes even less then the energy they would gain back So tell me how was that fair and not overpowered?

What you proposed would just make CH devolve back into using base energy once again while over relying on a skill to give them back their almost 1/3 to sometimes more then 1/4 of their original energy. Now say if you got your wish and Plasma armor was removed. CH would need a way to protect themselves and this would case less diversity since all CH would have to go to high dex and tech builds for this protection. This is the same type of build that used to overly abuse static to the point where people complained about the heal loops (since they were the ones who gained energy 15+16 energy through dealing low damage since they didn't train their strength any higher then what was needed for thier weapons) Str CH and any other build with CH would not exist and if they did they would get clobbered. Oh and let's not forget with the spamming of tech the EMP bombing would go up through the roof. It may not have happened before, but with one of the builds I seen Raynidays56 post was a high tech EMP tank build. Image what would happen if this build were to be used by the CH masses it would be udder chaos since people would be losing 40-50 energy at the toss of 1 EMP. With Plasma armor in play most CH don't train too much energy into tech since they already have resist, but without it they would have to and that would be another result.



RageSoul -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/14/2012 8:16:59)

Man , i miss old CH . I mean , that nearly 30 EP regain makes them stand up for majority of the builds possible to use. And the best part ? Massacre isn't reliable / needed in order to win .



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/14/2012 9:31:30)

First off. Poser? Absolutly not, maybe you.

'kay, so the OPness was shadowed at some point. Maybe it wasn't even OP'd because we had to put points into Technology to cover up the resistance, we had no passive buffs on ourselves. But the only class that couldn't be defeated with the original Cyber Hunter was the Tactical Mercenary, but some of us found a way around it, by not spamming Strenght.

So, it's the weapons fault? Most of the high level weapons are 34 damage, meaning 6,94 EP (7) back only with weapon damage. Let's do some math.
Primary damage - Energy return (taking the high numbers, 29% formula)
10-12+34 - 13,92
12-15-34 - 14,21
13-16+34 - 14,5
14-17+34 - 14,79
15-18+34 - 15,08
16-20+34 - 15,66
17-21+34 - 15,95
18-22+34 - 16,24
19-23+34 - 16,53
20-24+34 - 16,82
21-26+34 - 17,4
22-27+34 - 17,69
23-28+34 - 17,98
24-29+34 - 18,27
25-30+34 - 18,56
26-32+34 - 19,14
27-33+34 - 19,43
28-34+34 - 19,72
29-35+34 - 20,01
30-36+34 - 20,3

Just a note, all the damage here, I seen personally, and I had 30-36+35 myself.
So, the Energy regain is from 13 to 20 Energy Points at high levels? And those damage outputs are most used. And every one of them can be taken away with any level of EMP Grenade (My Bounty Hunters takes way 20 EP with the grenade, I got 46 Technology), any level of Mercenary Energy thingy. The only class that can't take away that ammount of EP is the Mage class. And that ammount of Energy regain is a problem?
Here's a little story. Back when Battle Elf wanted to get the daily 2v2, he had an all-out offense Support build (best Tech Mage build ever) with really low ammount of Defense (21-26) and Resistance (22-27) and 110 HP. Everyone could do a minimum of 30-50 damage per turn and he regain 9-15 EP back. Most Cyber Hunters regained 15 EP. How is then Reroute any different from Static Charge? Now Cyber Hunters barerly get around 10 if they are Strenght builds.

The class is by nature Energy base, so why not having it Energy base once again? Again. WHAT CLASS DOESN'T RELY ON ONE SKILL! EVERY CLASS DOES! You're a Tech Mage, fo' show you have Reroute & Deadly Aim, or Reroute & Plasma Bolt + Super Charge. Real not relying on anything there. e.e
Less diversity? Tech Mage has no diversity. Cyber Hunter either. Every build is a Strenght build, which is meh or an 5 Focus build which is worse then meh (And they don't use Massacre, stupid people). So there is now diversity between Cyber Hunters?! Woah. I see it!

Heal looping, I barerly seen anyone who heal looped, I tried, but it failed as it sucks. And again EMP Grenade/Maul thingy, boosters, Field Medic. You can counter it with ease. I'm currently a Bounty Hunter, I use Max Massacre, heal or not, I kill you with it. High Tech build means low Support, low Defense, low Energy Pool. You can easily get the first turn, take away the players Energy. Also, it's not the only offense you got.

I suggest you to stop posing to know about what I am writing about, what I am trying to do, stop being a poser. Go out!



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/14/2012 11:39:05)

Ok Wootz when did I call you a poser? I said poster not poser you must have miss the T in poster.

Also with the old static gain it must have been a problem to a lot of players since it was nerf to what it is now. I myself didn't complain about this because it never bothered me when I faced a Cyber hunter, but now that I look at it, and remembering my previous battles it made me think know that static charge was overpowered. Cause as I said before gaining 13-20 energy just because you have to potential to do that damage out of 30% (if you max out static charge) while only scoring 3-7 in some cases in vastly OP. That is what the masses that caused the Admins to do this complained about. As I stated before I never complained about this since it never bothered me when I was fighting against them I could stop certain attacks or make them less effective depending on the class. However there were others who couldn't and I guess enough of these people complained to the point were the nerf happened. Now could you image if reroute was based off that same old formula instead of taking actual damage? I can, and let's just say if it was the caster mages would be unstoppable, and TLM would have energy to last them until the cows come home. It would be a nightmare if you faced these classes especially the caster mage class (which is the type of mage I have the most problems with but can deal with it.)

But as for the heal loop thing cinderalla told us this herself when people were first asking/ complaining about static charge get such a heavy nerf which is why I am saying that. Heck even she didn't like the nerf that happened to static charge, however this is what happens when a certain group of people overly abuse something, and the people who don't like it complain. Eventually something will be done about it.

But on another note what passives did you and a couple of others suggest for protection before plasma armor came out? I would love to hear about some of them since for all we know they might have been better ideas then PA.



RageSoul -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/15/2012 4:53:40)

I find Infernal Dictator somewhat abusively OPed in terms of frequency ( either skills like Cheap Shot or because of RNG going haywire ) . It affects ALL attacks ( yes , ALL , so that includes Plasma Bolt , and the "Ultimates" ), which means if any of those attacks Crits , that's doomsday for you .



theholyfighter -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/15/2012 5:12:47)

^above
I've already suggested that in the Suggestions Thread but it got blasted by varium players...then it got locked up



RageSoul -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/15/2012 5:14:31)

^Wait , really? I thought the newer suggestions just covered it up .



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/15/2012 8:05:39)

Lord aegis remember this weapon was originally made for fighting the delta vault so limiting it to only strikes wouldn't have helped since people don't use strikes until much later in the game.

Also it was locked up because it was supposed to be posted here not in the suggestions thread.

However, theholyfighter you weren't blasted by varium players, those people didn't agree with your reason for wanting the weapon nerfed to be like the rest (meaning limiting it ability to work with on strikes.)

The reason why me and the others disagreed with you was because this weapon only works with crits which is all based up to chance. You could have the max 20% chance to hit with every strike and not see one crit for an entire duel, or have the 1% chance to crit and get lucky and crit every turn. It is all based on chance just like blocks and deflections. While you can stack the odds in your favor you can't grantee that they will happen every turn.

The only decent reason I saw in that thread to warrant a slight nerf to the weapon was what Mr. Black op stated about it favoring the classes that have moves that have a higher chance to crit then others. However, the only nerf I could agree on with this is not to make it crit with these moves not all of them. By doing that it wouldn't favor any class since all the other moves have the same chance to crit. However as stated before every other move in the game (besides cheap shot, bunker blaster, and plasma cannon) has the same chance to crit as every other move which all depends on the players support for this crit chance, and as I said before even then it isn't a grantee it will crit.



XxKirachanXx -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/15/2012 9:04:16)

Doesn't the weapons effect kinda blow every other effect out of the water?
Sure it only has a 20% chance at max...
But the others, for example
Harvest Reaper: Has a 13% chance to deal 113% ublockable
Frost Destroyer: Has a 11%(?) chance to drain 15 ep over 3 turns
Celtic Cleaver: Has a 7% extra chance to connect
All of these only in effect on a regular strike and although sometimes devastating, not always so.
Getting hit by the II's special is always devastating, and way more frequent than even the Bionic Gear's special



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/15/2012 9:07:26)

@kira You have to remember that a block or deflect will ruin that crit. It's been said that a critical deflection puts you just slightly behind a regular ranged attack. Harvest Reaper and Frost Destroyer can't be blocked and Celtic Cleaver gives you a constant 7% extra chance to connect. I do agree that perhaps making it less powerful on things that have high %s to crit(Bunker, Cheap Shot, etc.)



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/15/2012 9:47:26)

^ ND Mallet those moves are Bunker blaster, Plasma cannon, and cheap shot which are the only moves that have a higher chance to crit then others.

Karachan remember all of those weapons have a fixed chance to do whatever ability or skill they do while the II doesn't. Unlike those weapons this weapon chance to connect is based solely on how much support is used with the exception of the three moves that ND Mallet used so like with every other move besides those three it is all based on chance just like blocks and deflections.

Any of these when used against you can ruin your day weather it be a block, deflection, or crit, and nerfing a weapon solely on this isn't a real good reason. That would be like saying let's remove or nerf shadow arts because it give hunters more of a chance to block then other classes.

However with those three moves that have a higher chance to crit more then others I could agree to null or weaken the effect of the crit with those moves, however for the rest I could not. Even moves such as PB and Massacre which are more powerful then others have the same chance to crit as a strike unless you are using the azreal bane or curse which increases your chance to crit by 5 with strikes but even if you had this on then the II effect equipped to you.



XxKirachanXx -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/15/2012 15:10:33)

Hm....true true....but I find it unfair that this is hands down the best special in game...
Take for example, my Harvest Reaper's special, in order to do 50 damage with it, I have to use a powerbuild, about 19-23 base, use a level 7 smoke, and my opponent has to have less than 13-16 defense after the smoke, assuming that I hit highest possible against his least possible defense...
However, with my 4 focus build, that had 29-(34?) +5 resistance, my opponent with the II, seemed to be able to strike for 50+ damage without even breaking 16-20 base damage.

If you ask me, considering that most builds have 95hp, 50 damage is a gamechanger, it's a little over half of the health, and takes away any kind of wiggle room if victory is even possible at that point. Even though my build is somewhat tanky, my defense's weakest point takes away 30 damage, I would be two shotted often if not for a lv8 heal if I get hit with the special from even a strike once and then hit with a nuke skill



King Helios -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/15/2012 16:21:42)

Infernal Interdictor is OP.

I did an Overload on a malfed player (~15-18 +10 RES), for 71 damage + stun + crit! Ridiculous.

Well, 151 dex sure helps :P (But my max damage is only 72!)



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/15/2012 17:39:48)

Kirachan remember as I stated before this was originally made to fight people with as well as the delta vault unlike ever other weapon which wasn't made to fight a boss like that so of course it would be better then the others. Plus even before this weapon was introduced the Bionic battlegear was the best, and then something else was the best before that. Remember every time a new weapon comes out there is the possibility that something else even better will come out.

However, lets not forget that even if the staff nerfed the weapon to the point were it only works with strikes because people are saying the damage output is insane, don't forget this won't do anything about the OP moves in the first place. As many people are complaining that if you get crit with Massacre or PB with this weapon the damage is insane however, as it was stated before PB and massacre are OP. These are just pointing out two moves.

Here is another one Deadly aim. When Str blood mages use this, they are taking 30-40 damage even without crits because they are spamming str which powers up the sidearm, and Deadly aim which even powers it up more. Stat spamming also can make moves overpowered and if you add crits into the equation it is even worse. I remember a str mage critting on me without the II and they scored 45 on me with a crit and I have 32-36 Defense since they had 120+ str.

Another example is King helios. He malfed a player, had 151 dex and used overload (which is power by dex) and scored 71 damage when he crit. While it sounds crazy remember when a crit hits it ignores more of that person's resistance or defense (depending on what type of attack you are using) and the II make it ignore even more so the output of this attack can be justified.

The point I am trying to make is that they need to fix the moves that are vastly OP before then can even think about about fixing the OP weapons if this is even the case. Because as I stated before this weapon only works with crits for starters, and Crits are all left up to chance no matter how much you stack the deck in your favor. (which the vast majority of users don't unless they are using a focus build since Support was nerfed into the ground) While I can agree that the damage that the crits do for the moves that have a higher chance to crit should be lowered (since these moves ignore defense or resist) I can't justify nerfing it to strikes just because of the chance it will crit you. This would be no more then people complaining because they got a stroke of bad luck (since Crits in themselves are luck based like blocks and deflections)



The Astral Fury -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/15/2012 18:10:42)

How can you say BH is not OP I mean really.



Yorvic -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/15/2012 18:26:31)

^ what dragonman111 said.

its getting out of hand. BH is on top of all other classes currently followed closely by the BM. why is this? Bloodlust . you could leave the classes other abilitys and ratios the same for the most part but the health regain out weights the need to put as many stat points into defense.

the current order in how each class rank is currently like this

BH,BM,CH,TM,TLM and Merc tied for last.
the only reason CH comes in third is because of how massacre is currently working. 5+ points into Massacre is wrecking people regardless of how they build. The reason builds with this high of Massacre are possible because the gear being released now days give you so many stats that that you can start with higher EP pools than before.

I have a Cyber Hunter and a Tech Mage.



The Astral Fury -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/15/2012 18:56:19)

Ya I mean you need to get rid og smokescreen of blood lust becasue really it is a tad OP i'm surprised people don't think so.



shadesofblue -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/15/2012 19:24:27)

@Yorvic CH<TLM<TM
TM is definitely the class to be/beat right now.



XxKirachanXx -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/15/2012 21:05:54)

I always figured that the difference between weapon specials was a matter of taste...for example, the celtic weapons special is great if you want to reduce the chance of having your parade rained on by a block.
The Azreal weapons were great because they gave you a higher crit chance, enough said...
The frost destroyer speaks for itself, it can devastate those who use exact ep and put others into a desperate situation.
And despite the bionic gears special dealing 2% more damage, and having 2% more chance than the harvest's, if you figure that most players have more resistance than defense, it kinda evens it out.
Each of these weapons are very useful, and can be devastating to a certain group of players, but they all seem over all to be pretty even to me...
But oh well...if they do something, they'll do it, no point in arguing over it^^



RageSoul -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/15/2012 21:14:59)

quote:

Lord aegis remember this weapon was originally made for fighting the delta vault so limiting it to only strikes wouldn't have helped since people don't use strikes until much later in the game.

Well since the war is over , i don't see any good reason why not limiting it now .

quote:

Also it was locked up because it was supposed to be posted here not in the suggestions thread.

Ah , i see .

quote:

The reason why me and the others disagreed with you was because this weapon only works with crits which is all based up to chance. You could have the max 20% chance to hit with every strike and not see one crit for an entire duel, or have the 1% chance to crit and get lucky and crit every turn. It is all based on chance just like blocks and deflections. While you can stack the odds in your favor you can't grantee that they will happen every turn.

Well like you said , it's based by chance but does that mean it won't happen 2 or more times?




midnight assassin -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/15/2012 21:29:58)

Wow bh oped? After the nerf, you guys switch to bh the fact that bh is already balanced. Only varium players ruin the balance. You are slowly destroying the non-var.



DanniiBoiixD -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/15/2012 22:08:07)

Please do not say Bh is op. It, Tm, and merc are the only balanced classes in the game. Neither is better than the other. And if you adjust bloodlust, make it only towards bm. If you nerf bh's anything, besides mass, i will quit.



doomturtle -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/15/2012 23:19:21)

Bl needs a nerf so does massacre. But mass will affect cybers if it gets nerf so I say nerf both just a little and boost static a bit



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/16/2012 0:04:13)

DanniiboiixD if they adjust bloodlust it will affect Bounty hunters as well There is no way they can adjust a shared skill without it affecting another class.

TM would be balanced if it wasn't for the OP plasma bolt, and Mercs are seen as the underdog class since it is the only class without defensive buffs and a somewhat broken passive. However for all the time I have been playing this game, I haven't seen one nerf or buff to the bounty hunter class it has always been the others that have been tweeted which obviously says that this class is balanced if anything.

Doomturtle Blood lust is fine as it is and massacre while it is powerful isn't stoppable. As for the boost in static 1000 times no! Cyber hunters according to the data are doing very well in their fights and are finally more balanced since they aren't overpowering every class. Sure they now weaker against certain builds but that is how it is suppose to be. They are suppose to be strong against some and weak against others that is how balance works not strong against all and weak against none. That is why CH were in nerfed so many times because they were OP.

Boosting static would only serve to make things worse once again.



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