RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (Full Version)

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rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/11/2012 1:27:57)

@streetnaruto

Your post...is, to say the least, completely bewildering. Have you seen the first Cyber skill tree? Technician was there:O And guess what...no one complained about emp or SC then! Yes, this is true. What hurt cybers was PA, a skill that made 99% of cybers original skills nerfed.


Watch. Remove PA. Replace with technician. Rebuff SC to 35% doing raw damage. Move EMP to tier three. Guess what? The class is balanced. The only reason we were considered UP before was because of the stregth TLM running around with Technician and Smokescreen and reroute. Come on. Its like they didnt test the class...

Watch. If they at least TEST this, they will see.


How hard is it to test?

Heres a skill tree for more help...


Field Medic-Cheap Shot-Defense Matrix
Technician-Static Charge-Plasma Grenade
Multi Shot-Malfunction-EMP
Venom Strike-Massacre-Shadow Arts
^
|
|
|
Seems good to me...



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/11/2012 6:27:36)

Class must have: EP or HP regen as passive, Passive Armor and Debuff <- 2 of them. CHs have only 1 with Technician unless you say SC is one then TLMs have 3 due to Frenzy.



Drianx -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/11/2012 6:40:35)

quote:

@Drianx that would make us a TLM with malfunction

No, TLM has another ways of regaining energy and health. And it has Mineral Armor = defense only. These make CH (even with hybrid instead of plasma armor) and TLM very different.

But I still think that plasma armor gives too much resistance. In the past, even Founders Armor was an energy armor, because dex was better than tech, therefore a resistance-boosting armor was better. Henceforth +7 plasma armor is better than +7 mineral armor, because dex is still more useful than tech.



rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/11/2012 11:00:13)

Easy then Trans. Simply replace another skill with a new passive.



I was thinking.



Maybe replace EMP since everyone will be complaining about it again. Make a move Increases the amount of EP needed for the opponents skills while decreasing yours?


It would be called Resistance


3%
5%
7%, 3% EP reduction to you
9%
10%
11%, 6% EP reduction to you
12%
13%
14%, 9% EP reduction to you
15%


EP cost: 0
Warm up, Cool down: 0
Level needed: 10
Requirements: 21 support step 2 (39 support max)

Simply, this move increases the EP cost of your opponents while reducing yours every few levels.



Example:


Tech Mage with maxed plasma bolt. The cyber has level 6 Resistance. Automatically, the Tech Mages plasma bolt jumps up 3 EP, making him have to have 32 EP at max for PB and other skills also jump up 11%. However, since it is level 6, then YOUR skills drop 6% EP.

Example:

Field Medic Costs 25 at level 5. With level 6 Resistance, it drops 6%, making it -2 EP, making a level 5 FM cost 23 instead of 25 now.



Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/11/2012 12:16:57)

Wouldn't that Sync to much with StaticCharge??

The Idea was to put CH back to how it was before the current Nerf and replace EMP
so adding this suggestion would make it OP again with Static

The Energy increase for opponent does sound interesting, except for BM because we don't really have a reliable Energy regain

Also, 3 passives? lol

Maybe if it's an Active skill I'd consider it plausible



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/11/2012 12:56:56)

Energy and Health are the two most vital stats in the entire game. Energy is the one we can control the most and thus it is the Strategic stat. Control of that in the form of a passive is risky. Many problems have stemmed from Reroute and many have also stemmed from SC. Allowing a passive skill that effectively pseudo controls your energy amount and your opponents is the riskiest of all. It's basically a drain(forcing your enemy to have lower energy and not have the ability to use all his skills effectively by making everything cost more) and a regen(you have the energy for the skills and then some and it isn't bad build etiquette behind it because they just cost less than you were prepared for).



rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/11/2012 14:53:26)

@calogero

Three passives???

Oh. Ok. That post was meant to be a part of the one where PA is gone.

FM-CS-DM
Tec-SC-PG
Multi-Malf-Res
Venom-Mass-DA

My thoughts on this? I have removed SA from CH while vice versa to BM. Cause lets be honest here, DA and blood lust mix too well and BMs always complain about blocks.

PA was WAY too versatile. It caused minimal tech with extreme dex, a deadly combination with SA.

SC has been buffed to raw damage once more, with a slight reduction in cost since.people complain. 25% at max.

PA removed in favor of technician.

EMP removed cause the best EP drain and the best EP regain is a bit OP


REsistance put in favor of EMP. Resistance nerfed.to only affecting opponents skills.

Also, max RES is not horrible. The costliest skill in the game is maxed massacre, which is 60. So a maxed RES would make mass jump up 9 pts, making it 69.

Cap on res is 10. Same as DA.

It is like a small form of EMP.

Better?



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/11/2012 15:42:59)

But DA isn't problem for BMs.. What Dex, Tech or Support (or Focus) BM is OP with DA? Only Str is a problem yet you wanna nerf 'em all.. Direct nerf to Strength stat will fix problem with Str BMs abusing it so why touch skill that's useful for BMs as a whole? Smoke and BL is also strong yet it ain't a problem? Good Smoke takes away -10 Def so max you can get from DA as well as it weakens blocking, skills and raises your chance to hit. Take Smoke away from BHs maybe? <_< (of course sarcasm..)

PA is fine, you wanted defensive skill before when you didn't have PA and now you hate it. Wait for passive revamp which can take time but I don't see an issue. Still angry at SC nerf which "destroyed" your unique skill. So what if it's unique? You had to have it to compete which isn't the point of it. If you MUST have it to win then something is wrong with it, now train EP at cost of maybe 1-2 damage/defence and use SC as a back-up. That 1-2 difference in damage/defence is about 8-9 stats which is whooping 16-18 EP trained. Find it too much? How do Mercs feel with no EP regen and just passive Armor? Don't look how your class is "crap" and "UP" because buff you want will hurt other classes so look at all the possibilities not at your class and its power.

Rather than Team focusing on your beloved CHs and their severe UPness (as well as TLMs apparently + weaker than MERCENARIES!), they should focus on buffing Mercenaries which have it the toughest. Cannot compete near and above Lvl 30 at all. No Hun, they aren't making crap builds for sake of a buff since that's what you shove into Dev's mouth and speak as if it was true (and your nerf list which is apprently confirmed). Also your Focus 5 build seemed alright, there was no reason to run with max HP and no EP because your partner lost but that's not my point. My point is that you should learn how to make a build and test it many times so you know where you need to improve. There's no perfect build. If there's a flaw then fix it or try to cover it somehow. One build isn't supposed to win all fights.
If anyone says Mercs can compete well. It's one build which is high EP with Focus 5, using Infernal Android. ONE build. So only one works which is funny since others cannot compete thus imbalance. TMs have Tech, Dex, Support, Focus 5/Tank and even Str works. That means it's balanced since builds can work (Tech is another story but not my point here). BHs can also do that well and ditto for CHs, TLMs and BMs even. Sure it's harder but that's good since you aren't supposed to dominate everyone with one build. If you do so and cannot even lose with it, there's something wrong.



rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/11/2012 16:14:48)

Eh...I just re read my post. I sound a bit like Huns...crap. Ok. Will edit when I am home. I really just wanted to show a new skill placements.

DA is damaging at str BMs, I just havent seen a non str BM in a long time xD


Mercs...yes. They are a HUGE issue right now. I am currently working on a little revamp for them. Cyber was my first choice due to everyone constantly complaining.

I try to post balance updates for all classes, I.just hace been doing more Cyber ones.


So, Trans, what would you say we need to do with Mercs.


Oh, and flame me again like that and I cut you... :)



Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/11/2012 17:54:11)

what I ment with 3 passives was:

You said replace EMP with the skill you suggested, which seems to be a passive skill.
Add that with Plasma Armor and Shadow Arts and you got your 3 passives...

EMP is the problem with CH...
For some reason Android is the problem with Tact Mercs and the way the STALL with heals and boosters just to get the highest Android damage possible...



rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/11/2012 18:57:31)

Oh no no Calogero :)


Resistance would only be implemented if PA is taken away.

CYBER HUNTER
So, it would be 2 passives then.


Shadow Arts and Resistance.



YUSH! Emp is a HUGE problem with CH. As many have said, an energy regain ability and an energy drain ability is madness. O_O


And seriously, would Static Charge be a huge issue if EMP and Plasma Armor was taken away?


I remember the first day that Cybers came out. They had Technician and EMP, a viable and potentially deadly combination. Imagine a CH with 63+63 dexterity and 46+30 technology, coupled with EMP and Technician. The CH would use Technician, say level 2, and easily gain +40 technology. That is...


46+30+40 technology, which is 116 technology.

35-42 resistance.

This is +29 EP drain with the tech bonus, so with this initial amount, a person could have an EP drain of.... (drum roll)

roughly 35+ at level 1.


Now, I see the reasons that people saying adding Technology to Cybers again would be counteractive since they

quote:

wanted defensive skill before when (they) didn't have PA and now you hate it



A reason why we thought that we NEEDED more defenses was this...

TACTICAL MERCENARY

So please do not take this as a Hun rant. I am simply stating my views and opinions.
*******************************************************************

MERCENARY

Adrenaline is a very good skill. A decent buff. However, once more, Mercenaries are stuck in the dust. With being the only class that has no GUARANTEED Ep/Hp regain, they have to struggle to survive.

I feel one of the biggest let downs was Hybrid Armor. Sincerely, it does NOT offer enough protection, simply put. The old Hybrid offered enough, +13 may be high, so +11 may be fine and switchable. I seriously do not know though.

I have heard of an old Mercenary skill called Tactics, a DA for Auxiliaries.

However, it was taken away due to the HUGE support issue.

Maybe it is now time to bring it back? Kind of like deadly aim, this skill gives auxes extra damage.

HOWEVER, maybe a tad bit smaller than before.


I was thinking a 17% damage increase on MAX?


Goes...

3%
5%
8%
10%
12%
13%
14%
15%
16%
17%

Meaning, a 39 damage AUX would get...

1 damage
2 damage
3 damage
4 damage
5 damage
5 damage
5 damage
6 damage
6 damage
7 damage


Questions, concerns, thoughts, flames? :/


(edit on the link)



doomturtle -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/11/2012 19:02:32)

Nerf massacre, need or take away emp from cybers and make static charge go with raw damage again, make pb cost 33 energy at max. Done Seems balanced to me



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/11/2012 19:13:38)

Cyber Hunters need a Resistance safeguard and like before, Technician is not fit. Energy Shield is a larger R. booster and is still an active skill (thus involvement).

I vote Energy Shield replacement over Plasma Armor and Technician.



Bunshichi -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/11/2012 19:24:08)

^ energy shield and defense matrix?



rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/11/2012 19:27:17)

What I was thinking @Above

Hmm...


This is tough.




However, what do you guys think about the revamp of TACTICS back to Mercs?



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/11/2012 19:28:50)

Not mentioning Malf improving with Support on top of it. That's why BHs have Reflex and E-Shield not Matrix since it's too much. PA will stay, people should forget it leaving since CHs wanted passive defence in first place and there will be revamp eventually. But if you're balanced as it is, I don't see a problem. Creativity? You're restricting yourself to standard builds. Unique skill 'useless'? Read my post above.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/11/2012 19:49:46)

Doomturtle while I can agree with the PB going to the same scaling as FB with BM Masscare is good as is, and static going back to raw damage no 1000 times no.

Massacare builds mostly have the same flaw the users of these builds use exact or close to exact energy so one well placed energy drain move will stop them in their tracks. As for the EMP problem it just needs to be moved further down the tier because let's face it EMP is way to easy access for BH and CH. CH gets it off the back so they always have the option of using it, and BH only has to pay one point to get it.

As for Static going back to raw damage no. If that happened people would once again go back to the old energy abusing builds again. Not to mention as I said it before gaining 15-16 17-19 or even 11-15 energy back from an attack that does 3-7 damage in some builds cases is extremely overpowered. Like trans said in a previous post relying on one skill to win it all means there is an issue that needs to be checked and CH before the nerf heavily relied on this unique skill of theirs since most would never add energy or barely invest energy.

Besides CH aren't hurting because of this nerf in fact they are still winning there share of battles, and are more balanced then hey were before because of it. CH are good as it now.



rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/11/2012 19:55:28)

@ mother1

Maybe making the energy regained a set amount and not a percentage?


I say do it like this to Static Charge.


1-1
2-2
3-3
4-4
5-5
6-6
7-7
8-8
9-9
10-10

EMP moved down a tier? YUSH. Since I became a TM I have seen CH's that drain 23 EP use it 5-6 times a battle. Seriously? Why u need drain my EP?

I miss using my tech abusive bounty build though/off topic








Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/11/2012 20:45:33)

Rayniedays56 if you think it is bad for TM it is even worse for Mercs since they don't have any way of gaining energy back. When I played as this class while I made it so I can use certain combos even if energy drained my build would always have to worry about those who make EMP builds. While I made it work with focus so it could have some more flexibility in case this happened there where those who would EMP me and I would lose 41 energy in some cases which is a heavy blow. What was worse is that a lot of these EMP CH's would never invest a point in them but rather up their tech a bit to increase it. So with this if they moved it to the 4th tier I would love to see how many CH would actually pay to use it.

As for the Static thing, if it became fixed once again some people would go back to the old ways of energy abuse once again. The way it is now being based on actual Damage make it less abused. Putting static on a fixed scale like you put it would be like putting on a nerfed version of the raw scale. I could see it now static charge being maxed out again by the ones who abused it, and some would go back to the fixed energy scale once again overly relying on static once again. It would be devolving instead of evolving.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/11/2012 22:38:16)

Why I support Energy Shield to replace the need for Plasma Armor and Technician on Cyber Hunters right now is from this:

Well, you think about this, Energy Shield, Defense Matrix, Malfunction... it might sound overpowered to you right now. However, contemplate about this- each of these skills cost energy, 1 turn, and hardly synergize with Static Charge. Sure, one could use level 1 Malfunction with energy blades, though consider this- Static Charge can only be used every 3 turns, and Malfunction lasts 3 turns. Therefore one Static Charge can be used during Malfunction. Will 1 Static strike restore 14+ energy? 45 damage from Static Charge must be dealt... and that is only energy to loop Malfunction. All in all, this build cannot be kept alive with any abundances of energy. It will deplete without being restored. Therefore Malfunction, Defense Matrix, and Energy Shield, cannot be preserved. This can not be overpowered just from considering Static Charge alone... and that is not even counting how hazardous it is to play defensively... casting skills that spend one turn while giving your opponent damage/rage advantages.

And besides, we have no basis to compare skills by, at least this could be worth testing anyhow. I am sure from past experience that Energy Shield can provide the Resistance at a balanced fare.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/11/2012 23:20:33)

@void Using that same argument I could say Stun Zerk str mercs aren't OPd because they don't have a way to get the energy back to constantly use those moves.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/11/2012 23:31:26)

Those are attacks, Energy Shield is a defensive skill. I personally never won a battle by spamming Blood Shield, anyone? No damage, no gain. Absorb energy damage? Yes please.

Focusing on Energy Shield, no rage, energy cost, 3 turn duration, high Resistance coverage, no stat influence, and it improves by Support (nice synergy).



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/11/2012 23:41:56)

@void I don't know about you but I've won many battles against str BHs because I used a shield and only once at that. It's a simple equation. You can have 1 defensive boost and 1 damage related skill with support or two defensive boosts. You're not getting two boosts and a damage booster. Mercs have BC, Intim and Artillery you reply. BC only gives extra damage to primary and gun whereas malf gives damage to ALL energy moves. Intimidate pales in comparison to a shield and can easily be avoided with bot, aux and a skill or two.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/12/2012 8:30:52)

quote:

You're not getting two boosts and a damage booster. Mercs have BC, Intim and Artillery you reply. BC only gives extra damage to primary and gun whereas malf gives damage to ALL energy moves.


I am confused as to why 2 boosts and 1 nerfer would be overpowered? I remember topics of balance changes having to do with synergy or burst danage, just as the past few changes were to skills such as Fireball and Bludgeon? Both Energy Shield and Defense Matrix do not synergize with Malfunction (in combination), and do not deal damage.

Also, Blood Commander can be as or even more potent than Malfunction. Malfunction boosts damage on one target for energy damage. Blood Commander boosts Strike which may be used each turn or the Sidearm for element-seeking. Boosted damage from Malfunction on attacks requires each weapon to be energy, and those weapons might be the Sidearm or Auxiliary which have cooldown and thus cannot be used more than once during Malfunction. Strike can be used each turn with comparably high damage.

Well, if you do not support Energy Shield for Cyber Hunter that is fine, but since pre-Plasma Armor, I hold with this skill being the near-perfect choice.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/12/2012 8:42:17)

Because they give a lot of Res and Def respectively. Even with minimum Support, you're looking probably at 16+ at Lvl 1 already. Support build with about 90 Support (easy to get) already makes it 27-28 was it? (wasn't Support TM in a while) And that's at Level 1 for very low EP cost. Can save you big time despite Rage also regenerating faster but gives you big edge + Malf at Lvl 1 with that high Support is already near -30 Tech, isn't it? Lvl 1 so you know. It's like -7 Res as it is for low EP cost.

And I'll disagree with your Malf statement. Only because it affects Energy weapons doesn't mean deflections aren't affected. They work on any type so Physical weapons do get something out of Malf (Aux/Gun). I mean if E-Shield and Matrix were allowed then why don't classes already have it? Too strong perhaps as a whole? :3



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