RE: =ED= March 7th, 2014 - Onward to War (Full Version)

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The berserker killer -> RE: =ED= March 7th, 2014 - Onward to War (3/10/2014 16:29:46)

The option of switching alignments should have never been introduced. It is too late though. Whats even worse is the number of people who switched to exile once word spread that there are "War prizes for the winning alignment". I think the only way to fix this is "War Prizes for the most influential faction".... think about it. Everyone has a fighting chance.

--Ghost God--




Variation -> RE: =ED= March 7th, 2014 - Onward to War (3/10/2014 16:44:27)

Lets just hope they learned from their past mistakes. Varium bombs doing approximately 4x more damage doesn't seem like a good idea. All this means is if you plan on going for War Hero (which I will win on one of my off days) you better plan on spending some varium ;).

EDIT: Yeah I've had a lot of close Legion friends tell me they thought about switching. Even if I had 1,000,000 varium I'd never switch alignments. I take ED wars very serious.




Ranloth -> RE: =ED= March 7th, 2014 - Onward to War (3/10/2014 16:46:17)

Or just exclude all the Bombs from the War Hero cheevo, so it's all about PvP - and have separate one for Bombs. ^^




Variation -> RE: =ED= March 7th, 2014 - Onward to War (3/10/2014 16:48:14)

^Not a bad idea, I like it.




Ranloth -> RE: =ED= March 7th, 2014 - Onward to War (3/10/2014 16:49:54)

Actually, I think this was during Frysteland War, but War Hero could be for PvP-only, whilst Bombs would have evolving cheevo (no daily "War Bomber"), which would be good enough & War Bombs would just be used to gain advantage over other alignment. Fair and square. :3




Digital X -> RE: =ED= March 7th, 2014 - Onward to War (3/10/2014 17:59:16)

That glorious smell of freshly baked cheevos wafting from the game oven! ^.^

Although realistically it will take me months to get all 12 levels of each section.




Noobatron x3000 -> RE: =ED= March 7th, 2014 - Onward to War (3/11/2014 7:20:49)

I wish they'd fix this games matchmaking and balance.

Its a damning inditement to this game the fact that until you get to the high end there are so many players running around with absolutely no clue what they are doing.

What does this tell us ? - There are not many new players staying

Why should we be worried ? What happens when the new players just stop coming at all?




Digital X -> RE: =ED= March 7th, 2014 - Onward to War (3/11/2014 7:25:42)

Then you're left with the current players who may decide to stay if they want to.

Hopefully with the changes to the war and new achievements it might entice newcomers.




Noobatron x3000 -> RE: =ED= March 7th, 2014 - Onward to War (3/11/2014 7:29:24)

^ Sorry i'd rather them completely shut down the game or shut it down for a few months and completely rebuild it so it works. Then it carry on with the max server numbers it had on in the weekends the last few months never mind the minimum on the weekday.




Remorse -> RE: =ED= March 7th, 2014 - Onward to War (3/11/2014 8:15:02)

^ Agreed,


What is the point of the war when the core game is broken.

How do they expect a war to be fun if it is based on the core game...


I do however understand that not the whole team can work on balance, but a massive art project would be creating the art for hundreds of cores.


Weapon cores have potential to be good for creativity and balance if created right.


The ideas for well balanced and possibly balancing improving cores are not in short supply either, just take a look at xendrans post in the suggestions thread.



Hundreds of cores,
Improved matchmaking,
Removal of broken cores and robots,
Implement a cost system for free skills,
removal of the broken legendary rank system and make it a skill ranked system with no unfair pvp bonuses,
Constant balance checks and updates.


And after all that they will have a decent game.




Ranloth -> RE: =ED= March 7th, 2014 - Onward to War (3/11/2014 8:42:04)

Yeah, because shutting down a game is very good for a business, to create few months worth of loss and then try to make up for it. Yet alone keep the players for these few months. "More players"? Yep, completely new ones because I doubt people would wait few months for the game to 'restart'.

Constant balance updates - and you expect to fix balance on weekly basis? Yeah, band-aid if anything, and that's not even balance.
Removal of features or implementing something you deem as a necessity =/= it needs to be done to fix the game.
These "broken cores and robots" are also your opinion. You seemed to hate on everything that's offensive, back in the day, especially debuffs. Not everything revolves around defense, and neither should offensive Bots be limited.
Improved matchmaking requires more players, obviously. And shutting down the game for few months to "fix it" won't help it at all, because they'll start with little to no playerbase...
And last time Devs have spoken about cores, it's not art limitations nor code (not most of the time), but balancing them. You want the removal of broken cores, yet if they tried to release many cores at once, you'd likely be the first one to complain that they release many cores at once with little testing - thus leading to imbalance. Way to go...

Yep, a decent game if they listen to you. Shut down the game and restart with very little players, fix something that's partially opinionated and not really broken, and not even tell them how to fix it. Removal of Bots and cores, and you end up with refunds - which they aren't allowed to give away, so customer loyalty will fall due to players losing their Bots/cores and not getting anything back. Even less players!

Then again, let's be glad they don't listen to all of the community. Last time they did, balance only got worse - beginning of Omega. Doing it here could end up in even worse.




Mother1 -> RE: =ED= March 7th, 2014 - Onward to War (3/11/2014 8:59:31)

@ Remorse

The moment they do number 3 on your list is the moment people will scream in outcry because they has something removed from the game they some may have paid real money for. It would be the eggzooka thing all over again especially if people aren't compensated for their items that were removed.

But then again I highly doubt the staff would remove anything from the game weapon a core wise myself.

@ Noobatron

I remember Xendran saying this to me when it came to the same thing you were talking about I will repost it.

quote:

Matchmaking range is dangerous to change because of the very low number of players and the poor player retention rate.

Increase range to make battles easier to get, battles get imbalanced, players get frustrated and leave

or

Decrease range to make the game more balanced, battles become harder to get quickly, players get frustrated and leave

or

Keep the same range to keep things where they are, battles are in between with balance and speed, players see little change happening, players get frustrated and leave


This basically explains why the staff won't just make that change even if you a some people feel it is for the best.

Personally I would love to see them add buffed NPC to the mix to fill in the wholes when a fair fight can't be found. If they did this for both 1 vs 1 and 2 vs 2 like the infernal war fair fights would come and matching speed would be fixed without the need of lowering the player range.

This way players won't leave due to unfair match ups, players won't leave because they are sick of wait times, and they will see something is being done about this problem.

There are other solutions even if Temperory ones that can help matchmaking without the staff crippling something in the process.




comicalbike -> RE: =ED= March 7th, 2014 - Onward to War (3/11/2014 9:07:09)

buffed npc to stand in for more even battles that i am for




Remorse -> RE: =ED= March 7th, 2014 - Onward to War (3/11/2014 10:24:03)

@ Trans,

Wanna be more disrespectful to other peoples opinions?


Or perhaps do you wanna justify why you think they should leave the game as it is?


Also I never said they should shut it down.


As for removal of broken cores and or robots that can be achieved by replacing the effects without removing the item.
Some complaints will happen surely but they need to make some steps to better balance.



As for balance on a weekly basis, this may be necessary or perhaps just balance when needed, if they get to a point were balance in the game is actually half decent then they can actually afford to balance changes only once a month but if it's like it is now then it should be more frequent.




Yes they have done some bad changes in the past however I can't seem to find many that were actually the players fault, also omega has had some great changes disrespecting the changes made in omega as a whole is rude to the devs and to the players that supported it.


As for unbalanced cores being released, this will be much less likely to happen if they use common seance and perhaps listen to well informed players idea on cores.
What I mean is if they release things obviously OP such as the azreal core and hatch-ling rush then it does not even take testing to find that it is broken.
The people who realize that should be in charge of core balance control and as long as they focus on making core more specialized for individual builds rather then strong on everything as a whole then their will be much less issues with core balance. What also might help is if they started each core at what would seem to be a lower power level for example the energy shot gun core and then perhaps long into the cores lifetime it may receive a buff.









Mother1 -> RE: =ED= March 7th, 2014 - Onward to War (3/11/2014 10:35:04)

@ remorse

No one is saying leave the game as it is. Everyone is different and not everyone agree's with what some people suggest.

I remember you saying in the eggzooka thread that what they did there was disrespectful to old players who brought the eggzooka in gamma, and even said the same thing when the staff decided to bring back the rare robots because they felt it needed to be done without any compensation to the original players who paid for these.

The same thing would happen here if they just removed cores/robots that people paid for. It would be as I said the eggzooka and the rare robots incident all over again.

The fact that people paid for these things will be the trigger that will tick them off if they were just taken away without any form of compensation.

But on another note I have to ask even though it is a temperory solution what do you think of my suggestion for the match making problem?




Remorse -> RE: =ED= March 7th, 2014 - Onward to War (3/11/2014 10:41:49)

^ I do like the NPC idea to fill the battlefield.


This means they can afford to make small matchmaking adjustment without increasing waiting time.

I think I remember you stating it before and I was for the idea.




As for core/robot removal.
It would indeed be disrespectful especially without some sort of compensation.


I would expect them to at least try and find a solution to minimize this by say for example not removing the item but the effect and perhaps change it to something less balance harming.
And they should be tossing in compensations whenever they do so as well.

But the way I see it, balance can't move dramatically forward if they have all these item anchors pulling it down.








Ranloth -> RE: =ED= March 7th, 2014 - Onward to War (3/11/2014 11:12:23)

quote:

And they should be tossing in compensations whenever they do so as well.

The problem is... should =/= will. 'Terms and Conditions' are clear about refunds, and you've agreed to them. Furthermore, changing an item completely is essentially cheating the players because they paid for something different - as opposed to nerfing/buffing the said item. It only drives more players away, and harms customer loyalty. In the long run? You lose even more players, which is even worse if you want to balance the matchmaking system.

And again, drastic changes seem to have driven players away. Omega is a good example, although, one drastic change at once could be less harmful than a handful (at once). Passives to actives had little effect on playerbase - numbers remained about the same. But for that to happen, you still need time. They have content to pull out each week - if possible - and players begged to do something with the War, which is now being done. Rabble wanted to work on core effects of PvP - blocks, crits, deflections and rage, and - once again - this takes time. Passives to actives took months, due to weekly releases, and you cannot forgo content for balance (and vice versa).

Previous DNs mention the whole "EpicDuel Evolution" and how players will have bigger say in balance. No details apart from that, but with recent server adjustments and how they are being taken down and improved upon, perhaps the idea of PTR server could happen. This way we could test balance changes on a separate server, give feedback, and then allow it to roll onto live server the week later (or whenever). They've taken Guest Artists on, few days ago, and you mention art projects such as creating new cores - well, now it could be done.

quote:

As for unbalanced cores being released, this will be much less likely to happen if they use common seance and perhaps listen to well informed players idea on cores.
What I mean is if they release things obviously OP such as the azreal core and hatch-ling rush then it does not even take testing to find that it is broken.
The people who realize that should be in charge of core balance control and as long as they focus on making core more specialized for individual builds rather then strong on everything as a whole then their will be much less issues with core balance. What also might help is if they started each core at what would seem to be a lower power level for example the energy shot gun core and then perhaps long into the cores lifetime it may receive a buff.

"well informed players" - who are those? It could be some next P2W enthusiast - is he well informed? It could be ___ class enthusiast - is he well informed? Common sense isn't so common most of the time. You're forgetting Devs don't have as much time as us, the players, to test everything thoroughly, which is why new Testers have been picked just before Christmas.
And as you've said, if they've released broken cores in the past, why release a whole lot more of them? It's impossible for them to test it thoroughly, for obvious reasons (common sense). What you see, Devs may not. What I see, you may not. What you find imbalanced, I find balanced. And so on. Common sense isn't so common after all, is it?

Also, I'm not being disrespectful to your opinion. Last time I remember, opinions aren't right nor wrong, and I'm free to agree or disagree for whatever reason. Discussions revolve around opinions and agreeing + disagreeing. Perhaps better explanation would allow others to see your views more clearly, rather than mostly complain about lots of stuff, say how they should fix it, and having some unrealistic suggestions (remove broken cores/Bots/whatever and screw players over, etc.). You aren't right, nor wrong, but expect others to disagree with you.




Noobatron x3000 -> RE: =ED= March 7th, 2014 - Onward to War (3/11/2014 11:49:23)

Ok trans shutting down the game for a few months may not be good business practice I'll give you that (see I can throw a metaphorical bone from time to time)

However the thing is the games that broke and has been for so long at its core. Its never had much appeal to the mas inhabitants of planet earth . And now the tiny player base it did ever interest is declining at a alarming rate with little to no new players long term replacing them .

Shutting down a game is undesirable but may be the only thing that can save it now .

I think we've got to the point now

Where we have 2 choices.

Something massive (extremely drastic is done )

or


Nothing is done the game continues to struggle losing more long term players then its gaining significant updates come further and further apart until updates full stop rarely happen .




Mother1 -> RE: =ED= March 7th, 2014 - Onward to War (3/11/2014 12:18:30)

@ noobatron

you keep saying "do nothing" which is the complete opposite of what even those who are against what you think should be done are saying. Have you even read the any of the posts me trans and couple others have said?

Where have we said "Do nothing" At best a lot of us just don't agree with doing something as drastic as what you are suggesting because we also look at the consequences to said actions where as you seem to just ignore them thinking that it will give the wanted result in the long run. Heck from reading your posts I remember you stating "We can't afford to lose more players." Yet in one of your recent posts you say "We need to lose the players who think things are just ok." Which completely contradicts the first thing you said.

Everyone wants the game to become playable again including myself. While we may bump heads we all want the game to be fun and enjoyable again which is the common goal thing we share. Otherwise none of us here would be here in the forums posting our ideas.

The suggestion I made several times would help with not only the matchmaking problem but wait times as well. As remorse said if we had NPC filling in the holes the staff could afford to cut the player range since it wouldn't hurt wait times. Plus this isn't something extremely drastic either. This way those who don't want to wait long won't have to wait long, and fair fights will come without harming the player base.

By doing this players won't run from battles since they will believe they are in fair fights (since the levels will match up) and they will want to stay in the game without feeling like punching bags.




Noobatron x3000 -> RE: =ED= March 7th, 2014 - Onward to War (3/11/2014 12:55:25)

Minor changes to balance and matchmaking have been done since beta . The result now in omega - we have worse balance then ever (honestly tell me a time the games been not balanced that unrealistic but anything close to it ?) there isn't a answer that helps your argument. People are fed up of it they have responded in the form of the very depressing number you almost always see when you go to play on the epic server. and the 3 offline servers.

The time for tiny changes and band aid fixes is over

Time to get drastic perhaps it might not of needed to be so drastic some years ago . But the games declined so much . I honestly think its there only hope of long term survival now.




Ranloth -> RE: =ED= March 7th, 2014 - Onward to War (3/11/2014 13:23:57)

quote:

The time for tiny changes and band aid fixes is over

That's why I'm disagreeing with weekly balance updates, which are pointless - unless they are a necessity and/or it takes that much to balance a skill/core/whatever.

Drastic changes are good if you know how to execute them properly and cover the every flaw the change has. Let's use no level difference in PvP - what will you do about search times in 2v2? a) make players suffer and ragequit, b) leave things as they are now, or c) try optimizing it so NPCs can join you and your opponent, and make sure your total level is the same as your opponent's.
Or perhaps how to balance skill-trees - will you, a) revisit stat progression and weapon damage, and correct it, and then compare them to skills' damage and effects, b) nerf/buff skills based on how often they are used and compare to other classes, or c) focus on the feedback from players and possibly end up in a "nerf-buff loop"

Basically, you have to think of every possible flaw when it comes to drastic changes. One mistake, and drastic change ends up being worse than a band-aid fix.

If you want drastic, give it time. But not everyone want drastic nor willing to give time, which often ends up in rushed or incomplete fixes (temporary), just to buy more time - not because they want to, but there are also players who want something done about balance asap - yet alone accusing the Devs of not listening because big changes take time and they are doing "nothing", because no balance changes have been done for a while.




Noobatron x3000 -> RE: =ED= March 7th, 2014 - Onward to War (3/11/2014 13:42:57)

See if they turned around and said ok we need *insert time frame here* to properly sort out the game at its core this I could just about accept it. My problem is the fact they just don't and the fact the games been fundamentally broke since beta with more holes in it then anything. Gives the impression they just don't care and highly irritates me , If they don't care why the hell should I?




Mother1 -> RE: =ED= March 7th, 2014 - Onward to War (3/11/2014 16:18:28)

@ Noobatron x3000

That is because if they did that they will bar themselves to a timeline. What happens when you do that, then at the last minute a bug comes up that is game breaking and can't be fixed right away? They have to delay, and the players will get upset. This has happened several times with big releases both before and after I joined.

I know Epic duel gamma was delayed for a while, Epic duel delta was delay, The infernal war was delay, Omega was delayed for a while as well. Plus if you look at omega itself when it was launched there were so many problems with it that it isn't even funny. They could have used more time to fix those problems however, due to them setting a bar for themselves, bugs coming up and impatient players they skipped a lot of things.

You also have to remember they are quite understaffed and have only 2 programmers previously 1.

They are doing the best they can, and if they really didn't care they could have just left the game the way it was in delta and never made omega if they really didn't care. In fact they could have never given non variums access to robots period if they didn't care. I could go on but I won't.




Remorse -> RE: =ED= March 7th, 2014 - Onward to War (3/12/2014 7:22:34)

@ Trans,

This is what I found disrespectful,

quote:

Yep, a decent game if they listen to you.
Then again, let's be glad they don't listen to all of the community.


Sarcasm and being condescending.



As for well informed players being in charge of core balance well that could just be as simple as actually using the opinions of testers and mods.

Because I know for a fact that as far as they can do is test whatever the devs come up with and have an opinion on it.

If they were the ones to actually create the idea in the first place then I am sure many balance problems could of been avoided.


Now I am not trying to be rude or anything but I will say it that I think the devs have much less of an idea of what will harm balance or not over some well experienced players.

I say this because they simply spend less time actually playing the game compared to a lot of players.


The point is I don't think core balance can ever be as bad if controlled by say the game's testers.
This is because they would then be able to test and create the cores then know will be better on balance. ( when I say create I mean create the idea not the code)


I'm sure many of the testers didn't like the idea of the azreal cores and the hatch-ling rush cores in fact I know this upon asking some of them, this just proves that they have an understanding of what will break balance and what won't and honestly it can't get any worse.




Also I feel that slow releasing of cores also makes it easier for them to become overpowered as if only 1 or 2 cores come out at a time the options for countering them may be low and therefore they have heaps of time to be abused.


If they release heaps of core at once, yes some may be strong but if their is a massive variety it will be likely that some of the cores will be a direct counter to other strong ones making the balance issues much less impacting.

If they focus on making counter cores as well such as buff/debuff removal effects then this will also help the variety settle down and keep the strong cores at bay,








Ranloth -> RE: =ED= March 7th, 2014 - Onward to War (3/12/2014 8:17:47)

When it comes to absurd changes without even thinking your argument through - like removal of cores and unable to get refund + shutting down the game to fix it (which may not even fix it) - then I'll just be blunt with it. I've explained why these two would be terrible ideas to do, and listening to you (on these two matters) would only worsen the state of the game, as a business and for the players.

That's why I go for explanations and often write mini essays, to avoid people nitpicking and going in circles trying to explain. Saves everyone time.




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