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Vypie -> RE: =AQ3D= Feedback Thread (9/5/2016 15:17:22)
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quote:
That's one of the problems with this game in my opinion: it's too grind-intensive. At first, the idea of dungeons as a complement to quests for leveling looks decent. That's really not the case when the dungeons are highly tedious and at times unfair, particularly those in Heartwood and Livingstone caves. And they're among the only ways to get good items. But you need to do dungeons or grind for hours for that, which requires good items to reliably do so. (Let's not forget the plethora of RNG items needed which can stretch the process even longer) The move from Livingstone Caves to Doomwood is an example why the game is grind-heavy. I was a level 7 and stood no chance against the Shadow Wolves and the Skeletons. Sure, it's still doable with a group, but it's monotonous. Since backtracking and doing dungeons took too long, I had to resort jumping to the Shatterskull bridge and leeching onto high-level players to catch up with the level creep. Many of us just want to get to the next area and make progress. If we're forced to grind for hours just to get to the next area, where's the enjoyment in that?
Yes, the game is doable. I definitely agree. The question is, is it fun? If you find so, good for you. I respect your opinion. But will others find it fun too? - The type if fun the revolves around hours of grinding. I'm not sure many would find it enjoyable.
With AQ3D being multi-platform, it's going to reach a large casual audience. If the game stays grind-heavy, not many players would want to play it. To some, the point of playing games is to destress and escape from the reality of work, not do chores. I feel that AQ3D needs to reach out to casuals as well since they could potentially constitute a large portion of the playerbase. I'm not saying grinding shouldn't exist, but there should be a balance. If AQ3D stays this way, I don't think it might succeed, at least up to expectations, on the long run. Besides, hardcore players may start as a casual, so I don't think there are harsh repercussions in reaching out to that particular group.
I agree 100% with this!
As the game currently is, it doesn't work. Main-story normal quests are super grindy, yes, but nothing compared to the dungeons. The drop rates to get crafting items are horrible, and you need to run the same dungeon aproximately 10 times (if you have some luck) to get ONE item. ONE upgrade.
Dungeons are repetitive and don't feel very fun. Killing the monsters in the dungeon should be made engaging, not boring to do.
Dungeons take so long (when you have to do multiple zones of "kill all monsters") that it doesn't meet the goal of "quick dungeon run break" or casual mobile gaming in small bursts of action.
You don't feel rewarded for doing them. I pursued every single crafted item in the dungeons, and that's because I'm a completionist, and because I believe in this game will only get better! But for players in general, when you run a game's content for 1+ hour of grinding and you don't see progress, you stop playing the game.
I have fun playing the game, sometimes. But its difficult to say how or why, and that certainly says something.
Right now, the combat lacks depth, and players can't really explore different playstyles within a class or toy with the stats much. The combat feels like World of warcraft when you are a level 3-5, but with (understandably) less mechanics to work with.
"Grinding"
Here's how to NOT do it: Have a super rare change of dropping the item you want, and wasting a lot of time in each attempt.
Do it like THIS instead: Have the 'special' blue items drop more frequently, but the craft requires more of them.
This will make players feel they are advancing towards the goal and making some progress, instead of feeling cheated by the RNG and wasting an hour on nothing. Players don't want to feel they WASTED time playing the game.
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SOLUTIONS:
Because having to grind a lot is still bad regardless of the way you do it, you need to make dungeons more exciting to play. You need to make players don't feel like they are grinding by keeping them occupied with another task that is NOT a grinding task.
This is hard, but many times this is accomplished by a story element that keeps you engaged, and feels like you are participating in it, rather than getting reminded you are just killing 20 wolves for their teeth or eyeballs so you can cross it from your groceries list.
Quests should not be groceries lists. I understand that there are limitations, but its just plain boring. Specially when you notice you also killed 20 trees along the way, to have the NPC ask for some of their leaves to make a tea to go with the eyeballs. Delicious! (The point is, you feel cheated).
In many games I played, they give you multiple quests that you can do in the same zone at the SAME TIME. This tricks you into thinking you are being super efficient, so it doesn't feel boring. Couple gathering items in the world with killing X monsters and killing ONE special monster, all at the same time. It doesn't feel so repetitive because you are not doing the same action in a row. Another thing is also to make 2 quests that require the same monster to be killed, for different purposes.
Dungeons need personality. The gameplay in them is very linear. Kill monster 1, kill monster 2, kill monster 3, etc. Some other rooms are interesting, but do not require any monster killing, only running around. Like I said above, you should try to incorporate various actions in one goal. Make it so you have to kill at least one group of monsters to have safe access to an item/gate opening device/etc.
But why is killing the monsters SO BORING? The problem is that there is no personality in the monster layout. They are just there, spread out, and for the most part when leveling up, you will kill each of them one... by... one. Its very tedious and doesn't require thinking. Because you don't need to think, find solutions, your mind drifts again to the reminder that you are just grinding.
A solution for this is basically what other mmos do in their dungeons, and open areas. They make monsters linked in 'packs'. If you enter combat with ONE, all the other come fighting too. But they make them not so difficult individually, so that its a manageable challenge that requires more player cooperation. Now that you have this, make some small easy groups, some harder groups with stronger creatures, and even a mix of one huge creature + smaller ones. Put these at KEY interesting points along the way, guarding places and stuff, providing an uneven challenge along the path of the dungeon.
You need your dungeons to feel memorable, so that you remember "Ah, this is the place where X happens". Make the monster layout interesting, and design each 'monster pack' a for the challenge you want for the players.
If you have monsters with varying abilities and strengths, you can do SO MUCH with very little. But right now monsters only do stuff like AoEs, damage, debuffs. things that are just numbers. It doesn't require you to think or adjust your playstyle to the challenge. Regular monsters should be FUN to fight too!
Examples:
-Couple monsters with strong AoEs with a creature that pulls all players to its location, forcing players to kill it quickly so everyone can spread out, or luring it away from others so that it doesn't have enough range to pull anymore.
-Ice and fire elementals whose attacks stack a nasty freeze or a burn debuff, respectively. You then want to grab the attention of one of each(at the same time) so that the debuffs can cancel out.
-Monsters that when they die, cause an explosion.
-A group of 3 Skeleton necromancers that cast a resurrection whenever one of them dies, requiring players to kill all 3 at the same time in only a few seconds window of time. To avoid mindless player AoE strategies, they could also cast some mana shields randomly to reduce damage taken, so that their health would not drop at the same rate, requiring players to pay some attention.
There is so much that can be thought, but it would certainly require additional mechanics/coding. But the game needs depth in combat, strategies, and playstyle.
These packs of monsters could also be the final 'boss' challenge of the dungeon, instead of a singular monster that you just spam attacks until it dies.
Terrain:
Make terrain work as part of the strategy of a boss, or even just regular monsters. Things like forcing the Boss to follow you into a long path that you, as a player, can take a shortcut. Other players can keep it slowed down.
These things are already possible, but they are not being used as THE strategy required for a boss. It could be so interesting.
Dungeon/monster rewards:
Dungeons need to be exciting not only to play, but for whats to come! The rewards right now are very disappointing most if the time, because you fight a whole dungeon for nothing. You just feel 'meh'. You farm the dungeon waiting to find the boss you need to get the item you want, so the rest of the dungeon feels like a chore, you just wish to get over with it to get to the part YOU want.
The trick is to make the whole dungeon have the POTENTIAL to offer you something amazing. Even if the chance of dropping these special items would be minimal, it would keep you on interested, even when fighting normal monsters.
And bosses? They need something else too. Some other items to go along with it when you don't get the Crafting drop. The dungeon should not feel like a total disappointment. Make the bosses drop sellable trash, at least! And a chance of green-white items that would not be as strong as the level of the dungeon, but would help gaining a small upgrade every so often, if you are not having so much luck. (The major upgrades would still through crafting).
This would make running dungeons more rewarding, and these small upgrades would make you feel like its contributing for something, making it worth your time.
On top of that, make extremely random rare WORLD drops that can appear in any zone or dungeon monster, boss, etc. These unique items would be quite special, but you could not farm them directly. Since they could be found anywhere, you would just play the game and it would be a surprise when they drop! (Bigger drop chance for stronger monsters like bosses, of course). Having these things happen while tediously running content can ease the boredom and would make you feel appreciated.
(But you could still divide the world drops by zones like 'greenguard world drops', 'Doomwood world drops', etc, just so that they still have appropriated levels of power for your progression in those zones.)
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TL,DR: Sorry if I wrote too much to put it in a single sentence, go read! (heh, its about solutions to improve the game) :D
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