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12/29/2013 15:07:51   
Therril Oreb
Legendary AdventureGuide!


 Good day to you all.
What? Another thread about classes? Another Balance issue?
Nope, this one isn't about numbers, math, wins, losses or rage. This is about Roleplaying, roles and fun in the game.
We have 6 classes

Bounty Hunter
Mercenary
Tech Mage
Tactical Mercenary
Cyber Hunter
Blood Mage

But imo the names have become more or less vague. They are nothing more then one class overpowering the other.
During balance changes, people always tried to see which class is stronger then the other. Which is the wrong point of view.
Take the classic medieval setting:

Warrior: The tanker, the melee combatant using brute force to force his way in and taking down the opponent
Rogue: The stealthy, evasive fighter using either ranged or melee tactics to subdue the enemy.
Mage: The intelligent one. Frail in body but strong of mind. Using powerful spells to overthrow the other party.

Bounty Hunter could be seen as the Rogue variant.
Mercenary as the warrior.
And Tech Mage as the mage type. But do you still see this in those classes?
What about the other three?

How do you see it? How would you like to see it and how can it be changed to make it more interesting.
Would it be interesting in 2 vs 2 to have abilities that make a merc more interesting to take the full force while his partner, the tech mage buffs him and rains death unto the enemies?
Would you have the bounty hunter excel in 1 vs 1 with sneaky tactics or have him hide in the shadows, striking the enemy in the back while the techno mage plays bait?

Discuss this here freely. But to make sure, I will put a few rules in here:
1) No balance discussions. This is not about making classes stronger or weaker. This is about their utilities. Their meant uses.
2) Certain suggestions are fine in a general term. You can say "Merc needs more abilities to tank and less aimed at pure damage dealing"
But not "Merc should have the ability "intimidate" that costs 20 energy and forces the other group to focus on him for 5 turns"
3) Stay friendly and respectful towards each other. Different views and different opinions all of equal worth.

Anyone not following this will have their post deleted and punished accordingly.
Aside from that, happy discussing!
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 1
12/29/2013 16:34:29   
edwardvulture
Member

Realistically, wouldn't the mage always win if said spells was powerful?
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 2
12/29/2013 16:40:52   
Therril Oreb
Legendary AdventureGuide!


 Not really. The mage is physically weak. So a few solid hits could be fatal.
So a mage would either need assistance of magic to defend itself.

A powerful spell isn't all-powerful either. It could be dispelled, it could be evaded or simply endured if one is strong enough.

As such, every class could have different aspects it excels on while it might have weaknesses. That is the fun in 1 on 1 and 2 on 2. These strengths and weaknesses change depending the situation.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 3
12/29/2013 16:44:20   
GearzHeadz
Member

I wouldn't say physically weak, but probably just average. If that were the case, why is bludgeon so powerful?
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 4
12/29/2013 16:56:13   
Therril Oreb
Legendary AdventureGuide!


 That is the reason for this thread Gearzhead. To talk about the 6 classes but without any numbers. But rather on how to make the classes more diverse without making one classes better then the other.
Some will be at their best on some field but weak on others.

I am no ED expert. But from what I gather, Tech Mage is the best on energy mastery. So it can last long in a fight with skills.
A bounty hunter looks to me as the kind that survives through debuffing it's opponent and stealing life .
The Merc looks to me as a tank. Skills around having strong defenses in order to stay alive long enough to tear away on the opponents health.

This is the kind of discussion I am looking for here.

< Message edited by Therril Oreb -- 12/31/2013 11:40:04 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 5
12/29/2013 16:59:42   
GearzHeadz
Member

Mercs not only have good tanking abilities though, they can also make good glass cannons. But that is what is cool about Merc, you can be a heavy tank, with decent attacks, heavy hitter with low defenses, or a good hitter with good defenses.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 6
12/29/2013 17:02:49   
Therril Oreb
Legendary AdventureGuide!


 So the Merc sounds like an interesting class.
What about the other 5? I honestly know very little about the last three. So everyone's experience and knowledge is welcome here!
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 7
12/29/2013 22:56:24   
Pemberton
Member
 

 Bounty: attack attack attack strongest god
Mage: spell heal energy *repeat
merc: tanky punching bag
bloodmage: attack attack attack but bugged
tactical: tactics to not die fast but still lose
cyber: smart and underrated but no "cyber" skills lol
Post #: 8
12/30/2013 0:08:38   
Dual Thrusters
Member

Cyber Hunter

A Technologically advanced Bounty Hunter who has sacrificed speed for advanced weaponry. Well that's how I translated it. I would to see it as being a crossover of a BH and TM. Dealing high damage every now and then, while distracting the opponent with annoyances.

Blood Mage

This class should be able to do consistent high damage of both magic and melee--possibly in one build.

MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 9
12/30/2013 2:18:41   
xxDantExx
Member

quote:

Not really. The mage is physically weak. So a few solid hits could be fatal.
So a mage would either need assistance of magic to defend itself.

A powerful spell isn't all-powerful either. It could be dispelled, it could be evaded or simply endured if one is strong enough.

As such, every class could have different aspects it excels on while it might have weaknesses. That is the fun in 1 on 1 and 2 on 2. These strengths and weaknesses change depending the situation.

quote:

This class should be able to do consistent high damage of both magic and melee--possibly in one build.


/agree
Mage ... as being interpreted by that popular multi-awarded trilogy
he is both wise and as powerful as a cunning warrior



AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 10
12/30/2013 2:50:20   
Remorse
Member

I personally think all the classes are far to similar,

Giving them versions of skills which essentially do the same thing is just boring and surprisingly bad for balance.


I would personally like a complete overhaul of all classes perhaps in a new phase sort of thing long term of coarse, where they change everything, to try and make things more unique.


The only skills which you could say are the most unique would have to be mark of blood, adrenaline rush, every other skill I can think of has similar versions/alternates which can be good up to a point but their is far to much like this and basically it makes skills too easy to compare to others and clearly define the better versions.

Games with classes that have un-comparability are often the most balanced and enjoyable.


I also don't think every class should be able to do everything, currently now it needs to be the case but I wish for a long term goal for ED them make classes have full weaknesses and advantages in areas such as energy drains, gains, sheilds, and debuffs.
Defining their class by their strengths and weaknesses, rather then version of the same skills.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 12/30/2013 2:53:16 >
Epic  Post #: 11
12/31/2013 11:45:18   
Therril Oreb
Legendary AdventureGuide!


 I agree with that. We should have more different skills for the classes.
But I wonder, stats currently are the same for all classes. How would everyone like the idea of stats giving different changes depending on your class?
It is more work and effort but if there are less items, cores and stats that work the same for all classes, it makes it easier to balance classes.

Though such changes would require a lot of work and essentially would have to be planned out fully before it can be even tried. But how would people like it? Would you oppose it?
Would you like it? If so, what would you like to see for the classes?
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 12
12/31/2013 11:50:04   
Stabilis
Member

quote:

http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=21559273

So I think the problem lies there. 6 classes each focus entirely on damage dealing. BH has smokescreen perhaps to lower Dex and TM has Malfunction to target technology but that aside, everything is just about dealing damage.
Hence why I started a thread to talk about class roles. But this has to be discussed in the thread and not here. Else we start to get off topic.


Well, I can agree with you about this, I have always been nagging (literally) to the developers that the skill trees and skill cores are so heavy on damage (attack attack attack) that the games becomes more of a shoot-em-up than a strategy game.

We could do with some skills that: chain together to trigger an effect, counter other skills (like Defense Matrix counters Smokescreen), disables certain actions, enables certain actions, adds a consequence to using certain actions (like the bunny bot), boosts or nerfs certain actions, etc. Not just damage.
AQ Epic  Post #: 13
12/31/2013 11:54:00   
Therril Oreb
Legendary AdventureGuide!


 And how would you organize it then? You can't jsut give every class everything a bit of something after all.
I don't see a Merc fixating too much on technology but rather on dexterity and strength.
While a Tech Mage is the opposite to me and focusses on technology and energy.

Every class needs his damage skills, but some would work better if they had more against a certain stat but gained more from another.

Let a BH get more out of Dexterity but less out of technology or support. While a Merc could gain more out of Strength and Support but less out of Technology.

This is how I see it in a general form.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 14
12/31/2013 12:30:14   
Stabilis
Member

quote:

And how would you organize it then? You can't jsut give every class everything a bit of something after all.
I don't see a Merc fixating too much on technology but rather on dexterity and strength.
While a Tech Mage is the opposite to me and focusses on technology and energy.

Every class needs his damage skills, but some would work better if they had more against a certain stat but gained more from another.


If we keep classes the way they are, we can certainly specialize in a limited amount of areas for each class. There is an issue for certain players, though. Players that want to change their strategies, perhaps by using another class, must class-change, costing 50K credits or 900 varium. A recurring fee that is never lifted. I know I sometimes get bored of using the Tech Mage class (as I am a Blood Mage currently), so to use different strategies I am tolled a hefty sum. There are many solutions, but I will give one.

Goldslayer1 suggests that we include an option to change to a custom class. This implies that aside from specialized classes, players can forge their preferred play-style out of the entire pool of skills. I completely back his suggestion as it allows players to diversify to infinite realms when forging strategies, as well as being cost efficient (giving EpicDuel a higher rating of satisfaction). The only real limitations to his idea is an ice age of time since the developers did not make each skill adaptable to each class (Massacre is not compatible with a staff).
AQ Epic  Post #: 15
12/31/2013 13:46:50   
FrostWolv
Member

Here is what I think about each class .......... hope you find some valid connection in this description :P



Bounty Hunter ---> The assassins who stays in shadows. They enters with smoke and annihilate their prey with their ninja skills. Rumors are they have some shadow power to soak up their

victims energy.


Tech Mage ---> They are priest who has learnt the art of sorcery but are left fragile if they dont cast spell. They prefer distance combat and can also malfunction their opponent's gear if its

technology has different definition. Due to lack of stamina due to weak body, they prefer to Heal themselves in several interval to regain their stamina to cast magic


Mercenary ---> These are military soldier who are trained is unconditional circumstances to eradicate anyone who opposes them with their pure physical strength. These fearsome personality

only believes in smashing even if it is smash with clubs, smash by bunker, smash in energy, smash by phone call. Their "Smash In Style" is what makes them appealing.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Cyber Hunter ----> Some assassins started to have look into deep study of sorcery and wanted use it in advanced weaponry. But the addiction of mastering the energy flow was so severe, they

formed their own intellectual personality as Cyber Hunters. Their mechanics of energy flow in weapon always amaze their rivals.


Blood Mage ----> After the world war, few Mage overcome their limitation in stamina and chose to master short range combat and heal their wounds by their opponents blood rather than their

own energy. Thus limiting their ways for multiple healing, they were granted power to dominate by intimidating the strength of their foes.


Tactical Mercenary ----> These are specially trained Military Units who were trained to defend the top secret against the multiple adversary. Even if the Godlike forces appears before them,

Tactical Mercenary ability to tank is capable enough to delay the enemies till the reinforcements arrive

_____________________________
Epic  Post #: 16
12/31/2013 15:01:09   
DarkDevil
Member

hunters and blood mages are well as single fighters and should best excell in 1 vs 1.

mercs and tech mages fight as union thus being best in 2 vs 2..

i think skills like MOB are more out of their class use , as it should only affect the player using it.

a skill like armors and field commander and matrix and technician should affect both players in 2 vs 2 to get the point of teamwork.
AQ Epic  Post #: 17
12/31/2013 16:17:12   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


 There was a time long ago on a fan forums chat page that a tester was talking about the possibility for new ultimate attacks for the new classes. That should tell you how long ago this was as the evo classes were still new.

If I was to start with separating the classes into different classes that is where I would start. One super move that is different for every class and each has it's pros and cons. The supers while not used much on some classes are the defining move of each class so here goes my two cents.

Blood Mage has the ability for massive physical damage and even their class description marks them down as a violent tech mage with a blood lust. So why does it have the same super as a Tech mage which looks like something you would cast from a distance trying to keep you out of harms way. Personally I would like to see some kind of physical super for Blood Mage to balance out the energy and physical moves from 4-2 to 3-3. It could keep the same function of Super Charge just reworked for physical with an animation that matched the wording of the class.

Cyber hunters are worded to be technologically advanced warrior and it shows this with plasma grenade and static charge but when you get to its super attack you forgo all of it's technological advances and go for stone age beat them up tactics. Also they are listed to come from the ranks of the Shadow Guard which were ruthless in the lore so maybe they could have some dirty trick up their sleeve of a high tech super weapon possibly energy based for some synergy with their malfunction ability


I can't say much on the TLM and Merc super as they are both tank style classes so the super makes sense with that and while an orbital laser may not be the most crafty weapon it is indeed a tactical one. If I had to come up with a more lore friendly super I don't think I could because really nothing in it's skill tree is designed to, and this is based in the class description, trick the enemy.

< Message edited by One Winged Angel1357 -- 12/31/2013 16:20:10 >
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 18
12/31/2013 17:30:43   
Steel Slayer
Member

quote:

I agree with that. We should have more different skills for the classes.
But I wonder, stats currently are the same for all classes. It is more work and effort but if there are less items, cores and stats that work the same for all classes, it makes it easier to balance classes.

Though such changes would require a lot of work and essentially would have to be planned out fully before it can be even tried. But how would people like it? Would you oppose it?
Would you like it? If so, what would you like to see for the classes?

I've actually been thinking exactly this for a while now, Therril. This could make things very, very interesting from a role playing point of view.
Epic  Post #: 19
12/31/2013 19:57:02   
Therril Oreb
Legendary AdventureGuide!
quote:

Goldslayer1 suggests that we include an option to change to a custom class. This implies that aside from specialized classes, players can forge their preferred play-style out of the entire pool of skills. I completely back his suggestion as it allows players to diversify to infinite realms when forging strategies, as well as being cost efficient (giving EpicDuel a higher rating of satisfaction). The only real limitations to his idea is an ice age of time since the developers did not make each skill adaptable to each class (Massacre is not compatible with a staff).


Though I can agree there are those that like to change more often, costs can be altered if classes are not as "one class to rule them all". Right now it is just a heavy cost to get to the class deemed the strongest by most.
I'm currently a BH, people call it the strongest class for now while my win ratio is about 50% which I deem perfect balanced.

Anyhow, I disagree with the suggestion. Though it would allow people to make their own class to their preference, it too easily will just turn it into what we wish to avoid, namely, "one class to rule them all". I can already see tons of questions "What is the best build for the custom class?"
So no, I have to disagree with this. I would prefer a lower cost for class change if there is no such thing as "the best class" but rather a "best class for X situation".

If every class can be countered in some way, you no longer have this problem. But you can't look at it from a mathematical and skill point of view. This is how these classes are formed.
Hence why I open this idea that classes should be about a role, a purpose, a way of fighting, a background like how they are described.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 20
12/31/2013 20:03:39   
Cyber Dream
Member

I think each class should have their own role and their own skills. Skills shouldn't be repeated in each class. Mercs should have tanking/healing skills. Mages should be based on debuffs and mana. Hunters should be based on Str and the ability to avoid.
AQW Epic  Post #: 21
12/31/2013 22:36:04   
ShadowWraith
Member

The original concept of the 3 classes was the generic group of classes in any RPG. They've drifted from that concept to more of a quest to balance everything.

Custom classes is a good idea. You could put together a custom skill tree from a bank of all of the skills, but you may not be able to use all of them simply due to your weapon. The skills would also be locked into their tiers obviously, and no duplicating the same skill. Having some skills become available as you level up also gives people motivation. The game would be much more interesting this way. Also increase the available stat points to maybe 6 per level? This is off the top of my head but I feel locked in at level 31 to what I can choose to spend my points on.

Also, if you want to get more money out of your cash cow game just make people have to pay varium to unlock the skills unique to CH/TLM/BM.
Post #: 22
12/31/2013 23:07:56   
Mother1
Member

Each class IMO when I started has something they were good at, and had something they lacked. For example

Tech mage where the best at spells and range skills with good energy gain where they lack on the melee department and tanking skills.
Bounty hunter was the opposite of TM having good melee and health gain while lacking in range skills and energy gain.

However while each class had something they were originally good at an lacked in that was what made the game diverse.

However thanks to complainers who wanted their class to have everything another class had (EXP Blood mage getting an energy drainer/gainer, Bounty hunter having energy gain etc) the classes lost their uniqueness and are now almost 100% carbon copies of one another which make having certain things pointless now.

We might as well just scrap the 6 classes, and make that custom skill tree idea come through because thanks to all the complainers and the staff giving those players what they want I can't see the difference between one class from another.
Epic  Post #: 23
1/1/2014 0:48:51   
Pemberton
Member
 

 ^ So agreed!
Post #: 24
1/1/2014 6:01:27   
Therril Oreb
Legendary AdventureGuide!


 But having "1 general class', would that fix the problem? Looking at the mindset of a lot of players, most would just take all damage dealing skills and all energy draining skills. Resulting in a class that never runs out of energy and constantly deals heavy damage.
Why would anyone take defensive skills anymore when they can't last out against a barrage of these skills?
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 25
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