RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (Full Version)

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Xendran -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 0:33:47)

Things that are better than others aren't stats. Your thing regarding res/def is caounteracted by this: You can have four/five weapons. You could easily do Energy primary and physical everything else and gamma bot. This covers the def/res issue.



BlueKatz -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 0:37:12)

The problem that there's always some flaw, we can't ever balance by math

I also think Rage and Crit should ignore 50% defense



Xendran -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 0:37:46)

I just did balance it by math.
You HAVE to balance by math, there's no other way.
Saying that you can't balance with math is like saying you can't eat with your mouth.



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 0:38:23)

^

Unfortunately this game and all its variables are based on math. So if we can't use math to balance this game...we can't balance it.



goldslayer1 -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 0:40:40)

quote:

Block = Guard 50% Damage. Worth 0.5 Turns
For every 4 points of dexterity GREATER THAN your opponent, you gain 1% to block rate, and your opponent loses 1%.
Minimum -20%
Base + 0%
Maximum +20%

Critical = Ignore 50% Def/res. Worth 0.5 Turns
For every 4 points of support GREATER THAN your opponent, you gain 1% to critical rate, and your opponent loses 1%.
Minimum -20%
Base + 0%
Maximum +20%

Stun = Skip Opponents Turn Worth 1.0 Turns
For every 4 points of technology GREATER THAN your opponent, you gain 0.5% to stun rate, and your opponent loses 0.5%.
Minimum -20%
Base + 0%
Maximum +20%


80 dex / 4 = 20% block rate (30% with maxx shadow arts)
80 support / 4 = 20% crit (35% on strikes with azrael bane)
80 Tech / 4 20% stun rate (aside from the stun rates that are already applied to the skills would easily make it 50% stun rate and even 60% stun rate with shadow arts)
so yes now grab all that and subtract it by the enemies tech, dex, and support. basicaly tank builds would just dominate. because ur basicaly taking away ur enemies crit rate, stun rate, and block rate, by making urself a tank.
then hardly any points would go to str making str useless and making people use aux and robots alot more
and these stats can all go upto 80 with the right items.

quote:

I also think Rage and Crit should ignore 50% defense

what about rage and crit at the same time?
100%?>?

anyways im off to sleep this is getting me tired



Xendran -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 0:43:33)

That's not how it works. I made the luck factors WEAKER, not stronger.
Also remember, its dependant on your opponents. What opponent are you going to have EIGHTY more of one stat than, let alone all three of them.

EDIT: Rage and crit are multiplicative not additive.

Rage = Lowers your opponents defence to 50%
Rage crit = lowers your opponents defence to 50% of 50% which is 25%.

Either way, that's not how it works with mine. Rage deals double damage, and rage takes place BEFORE critical.

First: Double damage.
Second: That damage ignores 50% defence.

If it was the other way around, rage crits would be obscenely powerful.

Also, you can't determine things like stun yet, because as i said NO. SKILL. DISCUSSION. Skills are BROKEN, they arent relevant to my post, stun rates on skills will be changed, as will the costs.
Also, speaking of no skill discussion, you added shadow arts, a skill, into your post. My post does not relate to skills, so do NOT bring skills into an argument where they do not belong.



PD -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 0:45:50)

>> 80 support / 4 = 20% crit (35% on strikes with azrael bane)

Just a small correction, that's 25% Crit chance with Azrael's Bane. And remember, that's only for Primary attack.



BlueKatz -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 0:47:39)

quote:

Saying that you can't balance with math is like saying you can't eat with your mouth.


You can't sometime actually, there's always other way

Basically, math is just a part of the balancing, if we do purely by math we have 2 problem:
1/ There are always some flaws
2/ Everything is the same

We now must make the game has space to grow and for people to build creative builds.

A fight pretty much base on those skill:
Rush
Counter
Defense
Nerf
Boost
Heal

So I suggest we think that way and try to pull stat and skill tree into them rather than balance and mix everything together



H4ll0w33n -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 0:49:21)

@Xendren
quote:

Things that are better than others aren't stats. Your thing regarding res/def is caounteracted by this: You can have four/five weapons. You could easily do Energy primary and physical everything else and gamma bot. This covers the def/res issue.



that doesnt cover the issue.

you need to spend points on 2 stats to counter the offense. if its all 13 13 13 13 then why not just abuse str and ditch defense? your buffing offence and nerfing defense and that is a big issue epicduel has right now. str and support abusing.


math doesnt solve anything. it gives a theoretical point.
youd say the chance of rolling a die and getting 2 is 1/6 but if you do it and roll once and got a 2, that doesnt account for your predication.

theres a line between what goes on paper and what happens in real life. you cannot say this is balence because you havnt done it either.

whats a good game supposed to be?

well heres the answer to that. a good game isnt all balence. a good game is something that has challenge, creativity. take the Nintendo gaming system (early ones) for example. the games didnt let you have the same hp as other enemies so it adds challenge.

if we really wanted to balence the game and make epicduel epicfail then make all stats the same. all classes the same, all weapons the same except looks, of wait that wouldnt work because some may look kooler so no all weapons the same. you will draw the fights so you never win or lose. everyones win record doesnt change. thats whats true balence and balence is boring.



------------------------------------

you say dont bring skills in. well your going to have too if you want to deal with stats because they are related. if you change the stats then the skills will change. what your saying doesnt mean much when you havnt taken a look on what stats affect.

if u want a good example it would be:

you make a world that consists of 3 species.

a fish a insect a flower

u change the insect(stat) then the flower wont reproduce and you will have a disaster because the fish wont get food (insect) and it collapses.

u would have to make the flower immortal :O yeah
same with the fish.

there its sooo boring that no one plays epicduel because its balenced..............

what you would have to do to make the stats work with the skills is make the skills the same.


@Xendren below

you say all stats will be the same but you havnt touched on the weapon types. offense CANNOT match defense. because offense with the 2 weapon types win.


what your saying would work if defense and resistance were connected by the same stat.


---------------------------

you can just stack str, you dont need both str and support so its still a 1:2 luck battle.



Xendran -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 0:50:27)

1. There are minimal flaws when balancing with math.
2. STATS are the same, not skills. Please fully read things before commenting on them
Stats HAVE to be the same, otherwise everybody will use the same stat combinations, making every build identical.

All stats being the same = ANY combination of stats is good meaning MAXIMUM build creativity, instead of being bottlenecked into focus, strength, or support with a specific combination of skills.



Elf Priest JZaanu -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 0:52:50)

With the current state of the game, it has too much math. Build flexibility and choice of freedom to express one's ideals in playing are not present. It takes numbers to set the model of making a cage, yet once it is finished, no matter how balanced it is, it is still a cage.



BlueKatz -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 1:05:39)

I wonder if we should have an alternative MP regen way



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 1:29:17)

For skills balancing do you think my combo system idea would help?



Xendran -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 1:52:07)

@Halloween: I actually buff defence if you read my whole post. Armors would be near equal to weapons.
Also, you have to spend multiple points to raise def and res, so you have to spend multiple points to raise different damages.

Def and res use two stats, so the different types of offensive use two stats. If you just abuse strength it won't work as well because i nerfed sidearms in comparison to primaries.


As for skills, they aren't relevant to my post because skills are broken and i havent balanced them yet. Skills aren't relevant because my post deals with stats. Skills cannot be balanced until stats are first balanced. You have to learn about order of priority.


As for balance, why are you commenting on a balance thread if you dont want balance? also this is not a single player nintendo game, this is a PLAYER VERSUS PLAYER game.

You know who has more stats than players? NPCs. If you want a challenge bigger than players, fight the bosses.


EDIT: All stats being the same doesn't mean all classes are the same. Your logic is completely broken. All stats being the same means any combination of stats works, meaning maximum creativity.

Where did i EVER say i was going to make all the skills the same? Please don't put words in other peoples mouths, it will get you a bad reputation and make people not want to consider what you're saying or take it seriously.



sk1tz -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 4:30:18)

instead of support causing crit % it should be skills
support controls all the other aspects currently now, fmedic, stun rate, deflect rate and zooka dmg but crits should be removed and put onto skills, this would open up alot of new builds and strategies and would generally make the game less grieving and annoying.

Items will no longer crit unless they have crit % attached to them like azreals bane, instead the only ways you will crit now is using skills, every skill would get buffed if this were to happen and here is the changes i propose.

Bounty Hunter:

Cheap Shot 25% chance to crit
Smoke Screen 10% chance to crit
Stun grenade 10% chance to crit
Poison 10% chance to crit
MULTI SHOT 15% chance to crit
Massacre 10-15% chance to crit (needs to be tested)

Mercernary:

Double Strike 10% chance to crit
Intimidate 10% chance to crit
Bunker Buster 25% chance to crit
ARTILLERY 10% chance to crit
Beserzer 0% chance to crit
Surgical strike 15% chance to crit
Maul 10% chance to crit

TechMage:

Plasma Bolt 10% chance to crit
Bludgeon 5% chance to crit
Overload 10% chance to crit
Plasma Rain 15% chance to crit
Malfunction 10% chance to crit
Deadly Aim 20% chance to crit
Assimilation 0% chance to crit
Supercharge 15% chance to crit




Silver Sky Magician -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 4:55:39)

^

That's horrible. Skills do a massive amount of damage and to increase their critical chance so drastically will make this game hinge on luck more. Even support, which increases critical chance, is a stat that can be limited. And some examples are really bad, like Massacre having a 10-15% chance to crit.



TurkishIncubus -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 6:21:01)

Basicly the main problem is Luck factor. Deflects , crits , blocks these 3 thing is the most decisive thing in battle.No matter what build you are using , i can win you with 1 crit and 1 deflect . Use Merc STR , Use High Support Merc , use 5 Focus BH i will still win with only 1 crit or 1 crit and 1 deflect.

Deflects , crits , Blocks should be helping things in battle not decisive . im using 5 focus build my hp is 90 when a merc crit with his multi , What can i do more ?? , or a Merc crit with his aux , my hp will decrease +50 and im using 35 def or if a BH block my 2 robot atck basicly he will fill his hp 2 turns and decrease mine , i cant do any thing to win!!!

And starting advantage , Who starts battle rage first , this will make starting person wins %80 otomaticly :S



The Doctor -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 10:06:33)

@InTheSky
Did you read... any of the posts?
Please do so before commenting again.

@Khimera
Actually, Ashari and PD have proposed reasonable things as well.

@Xendran
If stats are repaired as you say, then yes, build creativity will be at its best.

@sk1tz
Some skills currently ignore a certain percent of damage.
Wouldn't giving them an enhanced chance to critical just lead to certain builds becoming overpowered and thus, overused?

Even if it doesn't, it would be extremely easy for bad luck or good luck to decide a match from the beginning.
It seems as if we have enough of that already.


Thank you,
~The Doctor



110Stalker -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 13:00:08)

Wow!!! The amount of newbies here is unreal. Now if you think that nerfing is the solution to everything, your an insult to the human race with such ignorance and are so incompetent that you cant solve a simple brain puzzle. These classes were disgined to have strengths and weaknesses. And in the time I spent playing this game I have seen some incredibly great ideas.
You want an example? Consider this.... Mercs who abuse support is nicely countered by the Bounty Hunters abuse of stregnth. Both have a fighting chance here. Now what did techmages do to counter these builds? Simple, they abused Health points. Does abuse of HP have a counter in both other classes? Yes. It's without saying a proper 45 build would counter this.

Thats just one example when there are many others. But what did people who dont use there heads do when they saw one of these? They ****ed and complained, and to such an extent that Nightwraith and Titan gave you what you wanted by nerfing many possible builds just to SHUT YOU UP.

Right now in comparison to what it was a year ago... say each class had a possible 30 builds(just an example) now it has now droped to about 5.

Those of you who actualy TRIED and used your heads. Well most of them quite the game entirly. Now those of you who were here way back in the beginning of last year. You understand that it didint matter if you were varium loaded or a free player, if you had brains you won. Now it's whoever has the deepest pockets wins.

If you really wanna get somthing nerfed, then nerf varium back to what it was.

The only complaint I had about the past that I still have today is the, surgical strike, super charge, and massacre. Lets start with surgical strike, it had strong bonus effects and a good amount of damage, now for a skill costing so much energy to use, I personaly think that a few more DP would be welcomed, but other than that it's a fine skill. The massacre skill has extensive damage(even at lvl 1), however no bonus effects. Now the only complaint i have is, it's countered with enough defence, thats where it could use a bonus effect ignoreing some defence. however the only problem of this is the fact that massacre requires NO stats to use it. giving it enough advantage to not need a bonus. Leaving us with the acutal complaint. The supercharge has a mild bonus and has mild damage. So super charge needs an increase in either of these feilds to get up there with the other two. MAKE SUPERCHAGE WORTH GETTING.


What im getting at is, each class was almost even in balance before the nerfing really started. Now it's chaos.



drekon -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 14:33:10)

I didn't get a chance to respond to comments in my thread about Insanely High Support/Strength Mercenaries Being Nerfed because AVA locked it and suggested to continue here. Well, I'll post my reply here.

I think some of you who disagree with me have forgotten what the thread is about. What I'm requesting is that the "Insanely High" Support and Strength Mercenaries be nerfed. Somehow, the conversation turned into something else. Anyway, let me address some of your responses.

@IsaiahtheMage, the build I have now is currently the ONLY possible build for a bounty hunter to keep up with other classes in terms of wins. And yes it does require STRATEGY! Here is the most recent screen shot of this build. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=129536213779432&set=a.126289737437413.21623.126272777439109 I've recently optimized it a bit to take off more energy points with EMP and boost my defense by 1 point. As you can clearly see, my build does not "suck horribly" as you assumed.

Furthermore, when I battle the high support merc in the image I shared, he was given first strike("duh!"), for which he used Aux and did 60 critical damage. My health went from 91 to 31. I then used EMP to reduce his energy from 43 to 3. Hoping that this would prevent the use of his multi and give me time to recover from the aux damage. However, he simply used an energy booster to increase his energy to 28, and then used AS(which had 68 damage and did 35 damage to me) the next turn to win the battle.

quote:

also mages should be more powerful because str BHs still win easily against mages

I find that hard to believe, because even when I was a strength BH, the only class I feared (aside from a strength Merc) was a lvl 30+ varium support Mage. They have the ability to boost their defenses up to 30+ points, effectively nullifying the effects of my strongest smoke and the damage of my massacre. In addition, they also have the ability to boost tech, making resistance higher and robot more powerful. Not to mention the insanely high Field Medic. I've seen a level 3 FM heal between 50 and 60.

As far as nerfing insanely high strength builds, I think that the strength for any class over 70 should reduce one of two things. (1) For every 3 strength points increased above 70, the chance to stun reduces 2%. This would mean that for every 1 point damage increase for primary and secondary weapons, a mercenary's chance to stun will be reduced even if he has max Maul. In addition, Maul should be changed to improves with nothing. (2) For every 3 strength points increased above 70, defense is reduced by 1 point. So an insanely high strength build of 98 would have either a 9 point defense reduction with option 2 or a 18% chance to stun reduction with option 1.

As for nerfing support builds (for merc especially), I think the chance for crit should remain the same up to a certain point. For example, support higher than 70 will automatically reduce the player's critical chance for aux to 0%. I like the idea some gave about changing AS to an energy damage instead of physical. Though unrelated to this thread, I also like the idea of removing the critical chance of bunker buster.

Now, I understand that some of you feel that instead of nerfing other classes, we should make our own stronger, if that's the case then I call for the following alterations to the Bounty Hunter class.

- The removal of ALL stat requirements for our passive skills (SA and BL).
- The reintroduction of deflection for Shadow Arts.
- A major damage boost to our Multi-Shot (which is currently useless for a lvl 32 BH).
- A reduction in energy requirement for Venom Strike. (optional)

If these suggestions can be realized then I'll stop complaining about unfairness. I don't have a problem with the mage class. I think that lvl 30+ varium mages are okay. However, my lvl 28 non varium mage gets owned by almost everyone (despite my awesome build) so something should also be done to make mages stronger. My only real problem right now is mercenary abuse of support and strength builds.

If you have any other ideas, please feel free to share.



Giras Wolfe -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 14:54:14)

One thing. You can't just start from scratch and redo stats, damage, and damage types to all weapons. We buy the weapons we do because of their stats. In fact I don't see the point in changing physical weapons to energy and energy to physical. That wouldn't make much sense anyway, and weapons are drawn to look physical-ish or energy-ish.

@Above

About rebuffing Bh:
Deflection shadow arts was overpowered.
Energy Cost on Venom Strike is fine. I would prefer if they removed the tech requirement that makes it unusable.
However, we do need to find a different way to balance strength bounty hunter besides stat requirements on passives, or AT THE VERY LEAST reduce it to 36 at max so we have SOME build freedom.

About support mercs:
There are now 136+ support mercs in 2v2. Nasty. I do 2v2 with 123 Dexterity and stun/multi. Of course regardless of my 41-50 dex they always crit me so defense is irrelevant...



frogbones -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 15:21:27)

Great posts above. It's interesting to note that
quote:

currently the ONLY possible build for a bounty hunter to keep up with other classes in terms of wins.


And what kind of build is that? A 45-45 Gamma Bot build. I tried to make a thread about how Gamma Bots need a nerf, but it got deleted and I got an offical warning not to remake a thread about it (yes, mods are all up in me, lol). So it's interesting to read your conclusion that a 45-45 build is the only viable build these days. The ironic thing is that I agree with you.

The part that's frustrating is that the devs have simultaneously narrowed the build window via skill requirements while making the only viable build require a Varium item---which further limits creativity in builds.



Hun Kingq -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 15:24:53)

In another post I suggested that Assimilation to be made unblockable and take away 35 points of energy and give half to health and half to energy and can be used every 3 rounds. This will cause the strength and support mercs, bounties, and yes mages, to take points away from strength and support and put it into energy because reroute works every other round. Many bounty Hunters I battle that used EMP first they took away 38 points of energy not having anything left to even heal if I had too. Another thing I suggested is allow the mage class combine two armors and add the plus point together so if you have two +8 then +16 goes towards defense and resistance but the combination can only be achieved with a physical and a resistance because as we all know bounty hunters and mercs have both physical and energy weapons. Players that are not mages will write that my suggestions are excessive because they want to keep the mage class underpowered but anything that forces the other two classes to lower the points of any of the stats to have the energy to use their skills then that suggestion should be incorporated.



Omni -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 16:11:17)

This is a great discussion, but let's make sure we are keeping on topic regarding balance, not about who's ideas should be followed or who's not reading posts.



Elf Priest JZaanu -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 17:12:45)

Xendran has put a tremendous amount of time is trying to figure how to level the playing field for all classes. But strictly on stats, it does carry balance. As also mentioned, the skills that are attached, and other elements beyond stats numbers are what we have issues with.

~JZaanu



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