RE: Overpowered and Balanced (Full Version)

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Wiseman -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/11/2011 17:28:24)

^ That's not a bad idea...but at this time the only way to gauge quality is through percents, however percents can be altered easily because of NPCs, which in my honest opinion should not count toward a quality leader board.

In order to achieve this the developers would need to do two things.

1. Separate wins from percents entirely (put them on two separate boards).

2. Make NPC battles effect quantity only, but not percent board percent.

Another option would be to add a new quality gauge to the game, though I don't know exactly how that would work, or if its possible.

The idea is sound, but something like that would be hard to implement.



Elf Priest JZaanu -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/11/2011 17:31:00)

For Wiseman:


I made a thread about opinion on the ideals for a quality board. It got some response, but I don't think it was fully understood.
http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=18849782



goldslayer1 -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/11/2011 17:32:45)

quote:


1. Separate wins from percents entirely (put them on two separate boards.

2. Make NPC battles effect quantity only, but not percent board percent.


i believe NW made a post about this where they had an issue about seprating wins. now that they can see who gets wins thru npcs and who dont, its possible. however all of those players that have like 99% winrate from NPCs back in beta their wins will stay and wouldn't be fair for the rest of us who are new.
thats why (from what he said) they wont do it.



Wiseman -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/11/2011 17:42:46)

^ You misunderstand, I don't mean separate the NPC wins from Player wins, what I mentioned only effects the boards.

Player total wins/loses and total % would remain the same off the boards. However the boards would only add or lower percent when fighting regular players. If a person where to NPC only they would not be able to get on the percent or rather "quality" boards, however they would be able to get on the wins board.

Basically the percent board would ONLY count player vs player battles, the wins board would count both player vs player and player vs NPC battles.

Hope that helps explain it better.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/11/2011 17:48:44)

@wise
ohh yeah now i get it.
but how about those who go for 1 vs 1 champ?
NPC plays a great role for anyone who goes for 1 vs 1 daily champ.
in most cases does who do about 700+ wins and play 15-18 hours get about 225-270 wins from npcs.
while only around 475+ are from actual players (going by stats here most players go for 1 vs 1 daily champ they usualy get around 700 wins)



Ashari -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/11/2011 17:49:42)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wiseman

Against players of your level and equipment and skill you would win 50% of the time, but you must factor in lower levels and non variums. I'm speaking in general terms of higher level players specifically levels 31-33.

I'm glad you brought this up. I've been wanting to see a "Trueskill" system for matchmaking for a while now. There needs to be a better matchmaking process that takes into account your skill level and equipment when matching you up. Most competitive player vs. player games do this by pushing the player constantly towards a 50% win rate. NPC wins would be excluded from this hidden rating of course

Right now there's nothing gauging a player to see how well they are doing, so an overpowered build can run rampant just like Heal Loop builds or 5 Focus Tank Mercs did. With a skill based matchmaking (well, win percentage based really) system, players that are running around with 90% win rates will find themselves fighting other players with 90% win rates as well, while someone with a 40% win rate (like a struggling level 28) won't be matched up against a fully equipped level 33 Varium player as often.


@Jzaanu: I'd also love to see a true win % leaderboard if it were possible to remove NPC wins.


Otherwise all good points! The only thing I'll add is that I see a lot of posts claiming something is overpowered because you've had a series of bad luck. Luck is a factor in this game, just as much as stats or strategy. Sometimes, it just goes the wrong way for you, but that doesn't mean a build is overpowered because it blocked you 5 times. In the greater scheme of the game, these chance events do average out over the long run.



Wiseman -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/11/2011 17:54:43)

@ goldslayer1

They would still be able to get 1v1 champ the same as now, the only difference is it wouldn't show their percents except for on the percent boards. However the percent board would only count the 475+ battles from actual players and not the NPC fights.

Remember we are talking bout two entirely separate boards here.



Elf Priest JZaanu -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/11/2011 18:14:43)

Thank you for the positive feedback.

I am one of the largest supporters of this game, and I have been also the most critical. I see so many positives and possibilities. This game can really provide, and it has, true political and real-time issues of conflict.

One of my largest gripes I had for the longest time was the recycle every 24 hours. It is one cycle. If this game adds more broader cycles (short term, mid term, long term, story-line variable term) beyond speed, it would be amazing and give more opportunity for players to cater the game to their needs. This game has tremendous opportunities for depth.

One of the elements I hope could be added was more affiliations. One of the reasons, in the past, I have always asked for it...
In the real world, there is few dominant sides, but many small sides that alter the variables in the larger scale. If one views world history, it is quite compelling how much activity is not seen, yet how much influence is invoked.

Everyone person's character should have a motivational, spiritual and duty for playing. Role-playing within the story-line. All of our actions will have some positive or negative recourse in the game and should have an impact.




Hun Kingq -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/11/2011 18:59:27)

When I was always talking about being overpowered I always refered the amount of damage one puts on me not that I lost the battle and when I write the amount of damage I take before and after I heal, I am called a liar. When I see mercs and bounties with 50 plus total for one stat or another and they still get massive damage I question where is the diminishing returns. I always look at the the other players stats and if I loose too many times then I adjust and experiment. Just recently I had stength and support at base 40 with dex and tech above base 50 just to see what happens and I got more damage put on me with less damage to them so since that was the case I put everything below 50 they still got a good amount of damage but at least I put greater damage on them.

What bugs me is seeing players use mostly robot attacks now to fight their battles now as well as Assimilation still taking less energy and being blocked at the wrong times while Atom smasher, which can be blocked, but when not blocked can take away more energy or the EMP which can't be blocked can take away basically all of my energy. Just because Assimilation dooes not need energy to be used but at least mput it on an even level with taking away energy as the EMP and the Atom Smasher and give us back more than 50%.

Last, take a look at who has better defense and resistance capabilities on top of having body armor. The mage class falls short of this. A mage had a level 5 defense matrix with 40 health, got shot with a bunker buster and that was the end of him. The mercs carry energy aux or sometimes a mix as well as bounties so the mage has a choice between energy or physical Armor so if you choose energy then you get killed with their physical attacks and if you use physical armor then they get you with energy attacks, As I mentioned in posts before why can't it be made possible for the mage class to combine an energy and physical armor and whatever the bonus points add up to goes towards defense and resistance, giving the mage class there own hybrid armor?

" With a good defense you have a great offense."



Wiseman -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/11/2011 19:31:46)

Lets take a look at the three MP draining skills and see which is truly the most powerful.

EMP Grenade: Cost the most energy, but is unblock-able and always drains a set amount of energy based on your tech.

Atom Smasher: Cost less energy then EMP Grenade and can drain more energy depending on the mercs damage, however it is block-able.

Assimilate: Cost no energy to use, and drains the least amount of energy, regains a slight amount of energy AND does damage (which charges the rage meter as well). However its also block-able, but it's better to use then a regular strike when available.

Based on this breakdown I would say that all three energy drainers are almost equal, if assimilation's energy drain effect where to be buffed then they would have to remove its damage capability and thus its ability to increase rage.

When energy cost, energy drain, and rage/damage are added into the equation, you realize that each of the skills are good and bad in their own way, they are balanced.



xxmirxx -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/11/2011 19:44:45)

your idea not fair for non varium players. It just benefited you guys also I was annoy when made npc are harder. that to me is bunch crap, But I do see were dev's take this they want non varium players to buy varium, they honestly made alot of mistakes in this update alot of beta players are dis please. Even I was not happy they are ruin game. If was them I would play this game more often to get better idea off game.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/11/2011 19:50:46)

@mir
well in order to have knowledge of the game ur developing u need to play.
and idk if they use alts but they dont seem to play much



xxmirxx -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/11/2011 20:11:24)

thats what I am try say. they have no idea way game runs if they did play game they would have never made this update way it is.



Wiseman -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/11/2011 20:11:35)

The developers actually do play the game often, and yes they use alts, and yes the quality leader-board wouldn't be fair for non variums, however varium players should have features that favor them. They support the game by paying, if they didn't pay and support the game, then there wouldn't be a game for any non varium players to play at all. Most free to play MMO games have features that are for paying players only, I don't see why epic duel should be any different. I can understand not wanting to have too big of a gap in battle, and if the game does begin to bridge that gap in power, then the quality board would be reachable by strategic non varium players.

The developers don't just want money, and they try not to make things that negatively effect non varium players, however they DO make things that reward varium players for supporting the game. They need to give an incentive to purchase varium because if they don't then nobody would buy varium and the game would lose all of its funding and be shut down, and nobody wants that. I have and will always ignore any post that accuses the developers of only caring about money. If you don't want to pay then you don't have to, but paying players will always have an advantage over free players.

This game is a business and like any business the best things will always be the most expensive, you cant go to McDonalds and demand them to change the Big Mac, simply cause you don't like pickles, and you cant go to any store and demand for them to lower the prices just because you don't want to pay for it. To us Epic Duel is a game, to the developers its a business, and if players didn't pay, they wouldn't get a salary and the game would not improve.

Anyway this thread isn't about pricing it's about what is overpowered and balance, I hope I helped you understand about why things are priced as they are Mir, but lets get back on topic before this dissolves into another thread flaming the developers bout prices.



xxmirxx -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/11/2011 20:35:35)

I see your point



Hun Kingq -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/11/2011 20:39:29)

Wiseman you say it is equal but energy wise it is not and when I use it I don't rage any faster then other player does. Just recently in a 1vs1 a level 30 bounty hunter had level 6 stun grenade and it showed only will take 22 points of energy but instead it took 30. Before the update I was getting 47 points of damage but now I average 20 points the highest I got so far was 25 so it takes less energy and gives less damage so it is no that powerful damage wise anymore. Well at least make unblockable and reduce the cool down to 2 and add 100% energy back since it takes less damage now. When majority of class skills relys upon energy why allow the other class take away so much that you can't even heal is that truelly making things equal and and fair and even when they are Assimilated they still have eneough energy to conduct their powerful attacks. Last, when two are blockable and the third is not how is that balanced.

98 +29 strength merc got 34 damage first strike I malfunctioned her lowering her resistance down to 0-0 used overload and she had very little damage and did not get stunned so with her total stats for strength being way above 50 she should have had a lot less damage on me and should not have deflected my energy side arm after malfunction which I only got 9 and 9 with the frost bite blaster I usually get in the up 20s to 30s.

I have not seen any real build adjustments in the merc or bounties because less damage above 50 is not happening just recently I battle a staff he had 76 +44 support and his aux still got 30+ damage and deflected my side arm.

Wiseman, play as a mage instead of a bounty hunter and you will see for yourself how frustrated the mages are, especially when it comes to 2vs2.



tigura -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/11/2011 20:53:31)

@Hun kingq- I dont think you understand how rage works. Rage increases based on how much defense the opponent has and how much damage u take (the latter being less noticeable). So if you use assimilate, your rage rate can increase significantly depending on the opponents def/resist. I didnt really understand the rest of your post, so I wont comment on it.



Wiseman -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/11/2011 20:53:49)

I've played Mage, multiple times, and the best build I had with mage had level 4 assimilate, the second best build had Max assimilate, both of those builds had about 84 dexterity and stun. Fact is if you stun someone they can't block, and then if you assimilate them then they take damage, lose a turn, and lose mana. It's very hard to recover from that, and believe me I've been on the receiving end of it and unless your build has a lot of extra mana, you will most likely lose after that combo.

Telling me to play another class is pointless, I've been every class many, many times. I test multiple builds to see what their effectiveness will be, and I test multiple weapons to see how much they help specific builds. Assimilate is better then many mages think it is, they just don't use it the correct way, any mage that has used it successfully will tell you, its not as bad as it first seems.

If they made it unblock-able and made it steal all energy damage, the would have to give it an energy cost, to balance it out. If that happens it would be the most expensive energy drainer in the game, because reroute gives back energy. It's fine the way it is, but if you still think it needs a buff the most they could probably do is increase the amount of energy drained by 1 point per level. However draining 20 energy, instead of 10 at max is a huge difference, and in turn would most likely result in them removing the actual energy siphon effect (where it gives you some energy back).

It's a bit complicated, but I know its better then players give it credit for. I know because I've used it effectively and it helped me win many battles when I was a mage.



AQWPlayer -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/11/2011 20:55:30)

Wow, now THAT's a detailed analysis. However, I don't think classes are unbalanced, it is varium that makes the game way unbalanced.



helloguy -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/11/2011 20:58:43)

The reason you found a build with assimilate was that you have access to every If not many of the STAFFS needed for it work effectively with a good build as suppose to others who dont



AQWPlayer -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/11/2011 21:02:38)

But he also spent many points on dexterity (I think)



goldslayer1 -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/11/2011 21:06:13)

all we need now are physical staffs. thats the only thing this game is missing, im tired of energy staffs thats why i dont like tech mage.
malf is a great skills and so is deadly aim with an energy wep.
malf can be raise with support so usualy high support and an energy aux.
= if we want to use a staff for stuff like assimilate then it wont be physical. and any tank merc with 30-36 +8 +13 +1 res will be tanking hard.



drekon -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/11/2011 22:20:13)

As a bounty hunter who previously used the smoke/strike X2/massacre combo excessively, I can confirm that it is true we have lower speed and percent than strength/support mercenaries. My win percentage at 100 wins would be around 84% on average (NPCs included), taking up to 2 hours to achieve. Meanwhile a strength mercenary can maintain that percentage or better and reach 120-130 wins in the same time frame. With that said, is there a reason why us bounty hunters were nerfed (severely in my case) long before strength mercenaries had a slight strength reduction with the recent update? It seems to me that since strength mercenaries were more overpowered than strength bounties, nerfing the merc should have taken higher priority than nerfing the bounties.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/11/2011 22:25:50)

quote:

As a bounty hunter who previously used the smoke/strike X2/massacre combo excessively, I can confirm that it is true we have lower speed and percent than strength/support mercenaries. My win percentage at 100 wins would be around 84% on average (NPCs included), taking up to 2 hours to achieve. Meanwhile a strength mercenary can maintain that percentage or better and reach 120-130 wins in the same time frame. With that said, is there a reason why us bounty hunters were nerfed (severely in my case) long before strength mercenaries had a slight strength reduction with the recent update? It seems to me that since strength mercenaries were more overpowered than strength bounties, nerfing the merc should have taken higher priority than nerfing the bounties.

really?
last i check the average strenght merc on the boards go 70%-80% now
BH can still go 90% and just as fast as before.
and i only seen a FEW and i mean FEW people go over 60 wins an hour. (myself included altho i didn't do it constantly i did it for a short period)

if ur doing 84% with a 125 hp, 69 energy, 84 dex, 88 strength build then theres something wrong with ur strategy.



Hun Kingq -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/12/2011 0:03:51)

Wiseman have played a mage with the new update? I was talking about now not back before the update. I had dex at 100 + total before with level 10 overload and the amount of times I stunned was one out of twenty. With this new up date having increasing my dex increased damage to me while mercs keeping high strength or support the damage they inflict does no decrease matter of fact one recent battle a merc had 100+ total support and had 30 and 40 on Artillary strike, where was the diminishing return which after two successfull Assmilation, which the Assimilation only got 9 damage both times, he still had enough energy to use Artillary strike. Tneh make EMP just as blockable as Assimilation. Just recently I fought 10 battles and Assimilation was blocked 9 out of 10 fights at least twice per fight. Did I write steal all energy, no I didn't. Give back 50% after a bounty takes over 40 points of energy from you how is that going to do anything for you, you can't even heal. One time a bounty had a level 10 EMP and took away 47 points of energy. so how is that equal one is not blockable at take away 47 points at level 10 while the other is blockable and take away 47 points. To compare the blockable Atom Smasher at level 6 if not blocked took away 30 points of energy at level 10 I seen it take away 40+, how many skills does the mage have that uses energy, 6, the lowest one is bludgeon uses only 10. In your opinion because you play a bounty you see these skills as equal because Assimilation inflicts damage and takes no energy to use but in the opinion of mages it does not take enough energy to make a difference in the heavy attacks of the merc or bounty because they use their other weapons to save energy.

Why would they take away energy siphon effect if they increase the amount of energy it takes to 20 but still blockable at least it would give the mage a fighting chance. At every level the amount of energy each skill takes is not equal and with EMP being unblockable, and just because it takes energy, (according to the players handbook: 10) it does not make the skills equal especially when it comes to amount of energy each one takes at each level.

tigura, I do know how rage works and support increases rage rate as well. So people stop assuming I don't know something or telling me I don't understand because I read the players handbook and played long enough and experimented with different builds.

As I mentioned before the diminishing returns with 50 plus stat is not happening you could verify that just with the leader board alone.



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