RE: Overpowered and Balanced (Full Version)

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Celestine -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/15/2011 23:02:46)

Just to shed some light while we're on the topic of Assimilation: It is not underpowered. Before I go on, I'll give a little review account of what each energy draining skill does.

EMP Grenade: Available to bounties, increases with tech, no specific primary weapon needed, unblockable, level 2 required, costs more than any other energy-draining skill, cooldown is 3 turns, easily can take half or less than half of a regular players EP with average tech at level 1.

Atom Smasher: Available to mercs, increases with nothing(based on your strength), club needed, blockable, level 10 required, costs fewer than EMP, cooldown is 3 turns, can take 1/3 or more EP with average strength at level 1.

Assimilation: Available to Tech Mages, increases with nothing, stave needed, blockable, level 10 required, costs no mana, cooldown is 4 turns, can only take 10 EP at max.

Now looking at the above facts, a player can assume that EMP is the best energy draining skill there is. It costs no more than 19 energy, at maxed, and at that level it can take all of your opponents EP, depending on your Tech. And it doesn't depend on any luck factor, it hits the amount you set it to. But, we can't just compare these skills through the amount of EP they take away. There are more factors to compare than just that. First of all, once a BH uses EMP, it is odd that they use it twice in a battle. It happens but rarely. Also, if your tactics revolve around EMP, you are limited to other skills you can use. Sure, 10-19 mana seems little to waste, but every point in EP is important in this game. And every point added to EP is a point wasted on HP, Str, Supp, Tech, etc.
Mercenaries waste less energy, so they don't have to worry about wasting stat points when using it.
Take this for example:
A BH with 69 tech can take 25 energy points with level 1 EMP. A Merc with 12-15+30 Strength can take 22 energy points at level 1. Both very good amounts of energy drain, but a Merc saves 4 EP, that he/she can use in another area. You can say this makes up for the 3 less energy drain coming from Atom Smasher and it being blockable. Though note that these are just average numbers and 69 tech is not equal to 45 damage. I bet that enough damage would make Atom Smasher as powerful if not better than EMP.

Fortunately, Tech-Mages do not run into the same problem the other two classes do. They do not have to worry too much, if anything at all, about EP. Since they are basically "living batteries". Reroute on top of the energy gain from Assimilation makes it so that we barely run out of energy. Now the only problems that can be seen is the cool down and the amount of energy taken away. But these are not really problems, might be for mages, but Assimilation is build to work like that for a reason. The reason is quite simple: Mages can easily abuse this skill. Other classes cannot regain mana, except for reflex boost. Imagine being a Mercenary or BH and getting your EP lowered every 3 rounds. A build highly depends on EP, and now it would have to depend on robots and normal attacks. While Mages would only get more EP allowing them to use skills repeatedly.
I guess the same reason applies for why it only takes away 10 EP at max. If it took more than other classes would be at even a bigger disadvantage.

Most players have underestimated the power of Assimilation. It does not need to take +25 EP away to be intimidating. Strategical players know that you barely need 10 points to be taken away, just 5 EP would suffice and hurt your opponents build the same(or close) that a level 10 Assimilation would. Though, I've always liked for Assimilation to be unblockable, but that might be a little too overpowered.
These draining skills are all balanced, well not perfectly balanced, but enough that it won't matter what class you are.
I've been using Assimilation since it was released, on and off though, and i can tell you that my most successful builds and %'s have come from this skill alone. It really only takes one hit to help you win the match. If you are unlucky, then I'm sorry but just as Wiseman said "If a class or build defeats you in battle...its not overpowered" Even when luck plays a big outcome in the battle, it does not give any reason to call a skill useless, underpowered, etc.

-Celestine



xxmirxx -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/15/2011 23:25:03)

Reason why useless skill cause there is more of chance of blocks by use Assimilation. also you need lvl 32 staff or higher to get most damage in battle and Assimilation works best if you have varium. reason why works best is you can get more strengh by use enhancement. rule is for any class never get skill that can have chance of a block. so as experience mage never use Assimilation. as a experience mage never use Assimilation as main skill.



Celestine -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/15/2011 23:48:28)

@xxmirxx:
The chance of blocking Assimilation is the same as blocking any blockable skill. Dexterity is the only factor that will help you out in this situation.
I don't have any experience using Assimilation as a Non-Varium, but I'm gonna sugar coat this: I paid for varium, so I expect it to help me out in battles. I'm sorry if you don't want to spend varium to get a better stave, but I can't help you out with that.
I don't know if Assimilation is underpowered as a non-varium, but until I get proof on that I rest my case.
Also, a build can rely on Assimilation. My first and current assimilation build average 90-94% with 450+ battles. Those builds had level 10 and level 8 Assimilation.

-Celestine



Wraith -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/16/2011 0:27:46)

^Excellently put Celestine. I use a level 2 Assimilation, I like it way more than any level 10 EMP Nade.

Also to address Supercharge.

Though we may all consider Supercharge (from now called SC) the current underpowered "final" skill, in my opinion, it is nought but a tiny bit weak. I will commence to prove that it is not extremely weak and unusable.
My current level 1 supercharge with 86 dexterity does 43-51 energy damage. Look at it this way. Currently, I am using Valery for a example. She has 10-16(12 - 14 ± 2) resistance. Assuming she has 13 resistance for this example, she would have 30 or 33 technology. Since my level 4 Malfunction deals -33 technology, she will have 0-0 resistance. I use Valery for a example since she is my favorite NPC when she doesn't crit pistol me. Thus, I will do somewhere between 43-51 damage. I also heal 30% of the damage I deal, which is 47*0.3=14.1 health, rounded to 15. 15 for heal is almost 1/3 of my level 4 Field Medic, that heals 48 and costs 23 energy. Thus, not only am I doing damage, I also earn back 7.666... energy, which is one third of my current heal's energy. So thus...
It is fully understandable to everyone that SC requires a buff severely. That would help out a lot. Perhaps a higher damage or new addition like 50% Rage reduction, which isn't that much. *The last time someone used Surgical Strike on me, I just Raged Criticaled them xD*
To sum this up, SC is not that weak. It is not a skill that is *underpowered and unusable*. I can add it into my build easily. People, the reason the developers don;t buff SC is because NO ONE EVER USES IT. If we all used it and then said it was weak, that might influence the developers.



xxmirxx -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/16/2011 1:21:08)

quote:

@xxmirxx: The chance of blocking Assimilation is the same as blocking any blockable skill. Dexterity is the only factor that will help you out in this situation. I don't have any experience using Assimilation as a Non-Varium, but I'm gonna sugar coat this: I paid for varium, so I expect it to help me out in battles. I'm sorry if you don't want to spend varium to get a better stave, but I can't help you out with that. I don't know if Assimilation is underpowered as a non-varium, but until I get proof on that I rest my case. Also, a build can rely on Assimilation. My first and current assimilation build average 90-94% with 450+ battles. Those builds had level 10 and level 8 Assimilation. -Celestine


with a Assimilation is waste of skill points its better to use on martix then Assimilation or deadly aim. note when I fIrst try as mage I was varium as varium mage I would hit 94.4 percent without Assimilation. I have more experience as varium and non varium. so I do talk with experience.



Soliqe -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/16/2011 1:22:31)

@above

Incorrect, I use a level 8 Assimilation, and it works wonders on my build.



xxmirxx -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/16/2011 1:27:27)

quote:

Assimilation works best if you have varium. reason why works best is you can get more strengh by use enhancement


both of you seem to skip what said about varium players.



forums lol -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/16/2011 5:58:45)

How are you guys able to have 8 assimilation? With that much, even at lvl 33 you can only have 7 malf, reroute, or deadly aim, another 7, and then a 6, which I admit is pretty good, but what if you want some field medic or defense matrix? Take away the use of Deadly Aim? I think what I'm pretty much saying is that if you have assimilation that high, you probably need to not have upgraded (would that be the word for it?) field medic, (most likely,) malf, reroute, or deadly aim. I know all builds have their ups and downs, but why can't you at least have 5 or 6 so you could have some field medic?



vinchuan -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/16/2011 6:08:52)

lol thats retarded, techmages with reroute don't put points into field medic, or else it kinda ruins the heal loop, 7 malf is more than enough as putting the other 3 points into it will cause a 6 point raise in EP requirement which would be better used in other stats. reroute 7-10 only gives 1% per lvl, therefore if someone was to dmg u 100HP you would only get 1 extra EP per lvl



Hun Kingq -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/16/2011 10:08:52)

Only one that has a set amount it takes away is Assimiliation not EMP or Atom smaher I seen level 1 Atom Smaher take away 30 points of energy and a level 10 EMP showing on his chart not with high tech take away 42 points of energy but he took away 47 so leaving me with 1 point. People say just level 5 would suffice to ruin a merc or bounties strategy but when you are against the stat abusers and that they have energy high enough that not even 10 points from launching Artillery strike or bunker buster and if they carry energy boosters then after you take their energy away again they use a booster and can use artillery the second time and this time is when they rage. If Assimlation took away more points of energy then that would force the stat abusers of the other two classes to take away the points from the stat they abuse to put towards energy to have enough to use those skills and that would help somewhat with the stat abusing problem, Like this one tech abusing merc had his energy at 41 one match I took away 10 points of energy he got mad so next time we met he had energy up to 43 taking away 10 he still had 33 enough to do bunker buster but becuse I malfunctioned him first which helped lower the damage of bunker buster but not by much and with more energy drain it will force the stat abuser to put more points into energy and that is one thing I like to see. If it took more the other classes would not be at a disadvantage but will force them to stop abusing stats creating a more equal playing field.

Comparing all three skills Assimilation can put on damage or even kill and before that last two updates I was get between 37 and 47 points of damage now it is between 9 and 30 points of damage. Next being blocked yes blocking depends on dex but I have seen players with lower dex than I have block Assimilation over and over again while Atom Smasher can be blocked it is not blocked as often and EMP can not be blocked. Energy drain is not set for EMP or Atom Smasher even at level 1 they take away more energy then level 10 assimilation. Then one says well Assimilation gives back energy 5 points at level 10, if they get you energy down to 1 point 6 points of energy will do nothing for you. So these skills are far from being equal they what people think or try to convince other people they are equal when they are not especially when it comes to energy drain. To make things somewhat equal ata least level 10 shuold take away 20 points of energy but is that eneough when the stat abusers usually have at least 61 points of energy because of EMP which as you see EMP forced the stat abusing mercs to put more into energy.

We could only see if this recent update works as it should and force players to stop abusing stats but if there is no dimishing returns with the two tier system then players will still abuse stats and you gotta wonder what else they will try to stop the players from abusing stats.



helloguy -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/16/2011 10:17:14)

I would take the energy givin back from the assimilation attack for it to take more energy or something because the return of ep is pathetic



forums lol -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/16/2011 12:50:15)

I thought that a battle Mage build depended on malf, heal, reroute, and deadly aim. Or am I wrong about that too?



Wiseman -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/16/2011 17:00:32)

@Hun King: Sorry but what your asking for would disable the other classes entirely, that's never gonna happen.

@Mir: Comparing Non Varium players to Varium players in power is incorrect, Varium players are supposed to have an advantage, which gives them more wins. If your gonna compare non varium then you must compare them to each other, like how a mage preforms against a merc when both of them are non varium players.



xxmirxx -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/16/2011 19:27:20)

Its not about wins I was not comparing non variums and varium. I already know varium players get more wins. ps I have experience as varium mage.



Hun Kingq -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/16/2011 22:36:35)

Wiseman I know it will never happen but I guess it is alright to disable the tech mage by taking away most or all of his energy were he can't use malfunction, heal, use technician, use defense matrix, plasma bolt, overload, plasma rain, super charge, or even level 1 bludgeon. I guess it is alright that the mage class has to put more points in energy and have less power while the other two classes could put less points in energy and have more power. If a merc has 61 points of energy and we ae allow to take 20 does tht not leave them with 41 does not still allow them to either use bunker buster at max which only requires 33 points of energy or Artillery at max which requires 32 points of energy. Bounty Hunters I seem some with 60 points of energy so you are telling me that smoke screen requires more then 40 points of energy at max or emp at level 1, are you telling everyone that massacre at level 1 now requires 43 instead of 33 points of energy or are you telling me that level 10 blood lust will be affected if 20 points of energy is taken away which blood lust requires no energy.

If we ask to make assimilation be used with the sword as well it will be said that is too much and will disable the other classes as well eventhough Assimilation is a jabbing motion. I looked at the 1vs1 leaderboard and the mages in the top 4 is battle mages not caster both with physical swords.

I noticed that you switched from a staff to a physical sword (Dragon Buster) was being a caster mage not working too well for you?

Anything that would give the caster mage a better adavantage in battle is considered too much even if it would give the caster mage a better advantage and maybe the code for Assimilation should be deleted to end forum discussions and that the mage would not waste points since it will never change.



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/16/2011 22:40:50)

To all who say that tech mages are UP...the person on the 1 v 1 leaderboard today, Celestine Eclipse, is a tech mage with a whopping 95.5% win rate. Which is incidentally higher than the win rate of anyone else on the leaderboard, excluding that of Narcissus, a bounty hunter with a win rate of 95.5%. What does this say?

Bluebird No. 1 is now a tech mage as well. Do you think he is just looking for a challenge? Maybe. Maybe not...

@Hun Kingq
Plenty of tech mages have said that they find assimilation to be extremely useful. If it works well enough for them, is there a need to buff it? I notice that you have largely ignored Celestine's evaluation of the skill as well.

It is not possible for an EMP grenade that was meant to take away 42 EP to take away 47 EP instead. If this has truly happened, please report it under the bugs section, which you have been consistently failing to do with your 'problems'.

If your definition of a 'caster mage' is one that uses plasma bolt and overload (maybe plasma rain and/or super charge), it is never going to work. Before you protest that this should not be so, consider the success of caster mercenaries (bunker buster, artillery strike, maybe surgical strike) and caster bounty hunters (stun grenade and multi shot). Do they have a high success rate? No.

A pure caster build will never succeed at high levels. Like tech mercenaries, you have to use a semi-caster build (i.e. choose one of the skills as a main offensive, and maybe a level 1 overload for a table-turner when you are desperate)



Hun Kingq -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/16/2011 23:44:53)

Silver Sky Magician, did you noticed the weapons she (Celestine Eclipse) used to get to the top the Dragon Buster sword and BLUEBIRD NO 1 was a bounty hunter and now is a tech mage using the rixty ripper (a physical sword). The third tech mage at the top has a physical sword as well, not a single caster mage at the top. If Celestine evaluation is so dead on which I did not ignore why didn't she stick to a staff to get to the top instead of a sword.

There is actually two mage class in one, the tech caster mage, and the battle mage ( which only tech that sub class uses is malfunction so it can't be catorgorized as a tech mage).

If you are going to compare caster builds then you need to include how much defense, resistance, or both each ignores and the caster builds of the merc and bounty do have a high success rate, look at how much damage bunker buster could inflict alone the highest I seen was 63. From the hand book "Note that even though this is a multi-attack skill, this is an extremely effective energy weapon skill against single opponents," so if a bounty builds a caster build just right they could have a high success rate.

If you read her post then my post you will find I did not ignore her evaluation that I disputed some of her assumptions Just because I did not put her name in my post don't assume I ignored her or do you want me to go back and put her name in my post would that make you feel better? Assimilation is useful but not extremely useful. Just as many also will say it does not take enough energy and is blocked too often. Only ones that thinks Assimilation should not change is the players that switches classes when they start losing too much with that class, instead of adjusting to the update. Myself I don't switch classes and will never switch classes but will figure out builds that work with the update.



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/17/2011 0:45:22)

As long as your class says 'tech mage', you are a tech mage, right? -.- If any mage which doesn't use a staff is not a mage, then around Christmas half the varium players in EpicDuel are not mercs, bounty hunters or mages (Frostbane). It makes no sense. The fact that Celestine Eclipse, being a tech mage (how is the way she chooses weapons or skills relevant) can do so well indicates the tech mages are NOT an underpowered class.

The player's handbook is not entirely reliable in evaluating the efficiency of skills. Plasma rain is described as an 'excellent supporting skill in 1 vs 1', which it is obviously not.

Bunker buster and artillery strike are powerful, that's why semi-caster mercs (support and tech mercs) are so successful. But bunker buster plus artillery strike and possibly even a surgical strike? That kind of build is not going to win very many people.

Caster build bounty hunters are seriously not feasible- bounty hunters that use stun grenade can be good, bounty hunters that use multi shot can be good, bounty hunters that use both skills just fail.

Caster mages are not 'true mages', they're just a type of build which tries to spam offensive skills and expect to win. If any class tried that, varium or not, they will definitely fail really badly. And assimilation does not have to be 'extremely useful'-every skill has a drawback and the drawback of assimilation is not great enough to make assimilation a skill that deserves to be buffed.



Wiseman -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/17/2011 17:38:26)

About using a sword, I prefer staff over sword, but the build I was using didn't work with any staff requirements (least not any that gave support). I change my builds often, and I usually use whatever weapon works with it at the time. My next build will be a max super charge build which should be fun, because since super charge ignores resistance and the damage hasn't be lowered I expect it will do pretty high damage. Though the main reason I want a super charge build is so I can 4 turn the NPCs with it, faster = better, I enjoy a good speed build.

I tried heal loop the other day and won 100 times and only lost 2-3 times, I changed out of it because I don't like winning too often, it gets boring and repetitive for me. Now I'm working on something with a more speed and less win %. Two builds come to mind, one is a max super charge build, the other is high level malfunction (level 7-8) with high level deadly aim (level 8), and using the new Energy Eggzooka.

Anyway I've proved my point about assimilation, I didn't know I had to keep the build afterword, last time I checked I'm free to change builds anytime I like. I still need to update all my older builds with the new progressions (we're talking over 60 builds here), so that may take awhile.

So to keep this post on topic, I'll mention weapon balance a bit, swords and class specific weapons in my opinion are somewhat equal in balance. You can use swords over a class specific weapon for the requirements (swords tend to have lower requirements), also now they have things like extra critical percent and extra connect percent. However I'm not a fan of swords personally, to me its too big of a sacrifice to prevent yourself from using some of the better class specific skills. Even as a Mercenary I think its better to use a Maul for all builds, because the Maul skill and Atom Smasher, are both useful and worth having in most builds.

The only time I will use a sword is if my stats don't fit any class specific weapons that go with my build.



Elf Priest JZaanu -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/18/2011 4:31:24)

About a day ago, my bh alt, Elf Artisan JZeena faced Wiseman's Support based Mage health loop build with Aux strength. I am not sure if this is the build you were referring to, but it was effective but time consuming. I also had a passive balanced build, and chose not to use boosters for that match. I also think you had a bit more stat buffs then I did as well.

When you say you only lost a few times and won 100, what was the time you invested? How many victors an hour did you make. What builds challenged you to use boosters, and what builds were able to deal with easy?

Reason I am asking, your post about it makes it sound so easy, yet in our match, you did struggle. JZeena, like my Mage, is not overpowering.











Wiseman -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/18/2011 6:50:52)

^ I believe the one I faced you with was the one that had 120 hp, that one isn't the same one I'm referring to. That build was good for percent, but it was a bit faster then the one I'm talking about, however it did lose a little more as well.

The one I mentioned earlier had about 140 hp and healed for 62 I believe, and battles where indeed time consuming, but I usually managed to outlast my opponent without any issues.

Now I'm using a max supercharge build, and I must say I'm enjoying it, while still not as fast as I would like, it's an extremely fun build. I believe I critical once for 73 with super charge which was pretty cool, but overall the build preforms well and gets decent %, the speed isn't that bad either. Most battles take about 4 turns, tho a few drag on a little longer, but usually after I manage to super charge the battle turns in my favor.

I'm not really sure why people consider super charge to be underpowered, because from what I've seen today, it's worth using.



jegaggin -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/18/2011 6:55:38)

i faced u wise i beat u :D but i was a support merc and hint hint guys hes weaker to support mercs *cough cough* idnt say anything



Elf Priest JZaanu -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/18/2011 11:52:29)

Thank You Wiseman for the response. I wasn't sure from reading your post if that was the build you were referring to. Maybe someday, I will try more varied builds. While many have different styles of play, I have used the same for nearly my entire time in Epic Duel. The only variant build was, quite like, the one you had used during our match. During the initial release of Azrael, and along with Imperial ACP and Bunnyzooka, it was a very effective combination with high support at lvl 30.

I have saved many of these small progressions; I should gather them together and actually post them.

What makes a build op'ed or up'ed, it is the ability to defend them. If one chooses to only defend that build, it is possible. But what makes Epic Duel enjoyable, there is no one build. To being effective against various offenses and defenses, that is what defines success of any build.



Lord GaGa -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/18/2011 12:34:27)

I think mages + F2P's complain too much

Im nobody special but i can achive 6/1% in 1v1 as my alt (without npcs)
and 3/1% in 2v2, I do not npc.
Take Arcanis 4200-1200 in 2v2 very respecable record for 2v2.
He doen't even know why mages complain.
As for f2ps i can manage 380-120 in 2v2 as merc
an 500-80 in 1v1 (wihtout npcs)
so i think people just need to find a build, rather than OP



Elf Priest JZaanu -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/18/2011 14:06:53)

For Lord Gaga

I think the main issue is, using any Mage build takes preparation. With the other classes, they both contain attacks that take very little prep to obtain high damage. Mage is a patient class, yet the games achievements are awarded with speed as of now.

Also with the addition of both focus and agility, compressed builds became very effective, and Mages don't fair well at 90hp like both bh and mercs do. Reroute is effective with more hp.

Also when referring to the class, it does not always mean the individual. If you asked me if I was underpowered anytime in my playing, I firmly will say no. I have a build that needs very little adjustment. I dont play for victors, only to compete. A good quality loss equals a great win for me.

In regard to Arcanis, he is one of the greatest mages to enter this game. He is of those individuals will never be underpowered no matter how the game adjusts.

It is about adjustments, and one is able to use them for their gain.

I also feel complaining and critique tends to get overlapped with one another. If one issues a complaint due to an issue, and they have tried all nessesery outlets to find a solution, then it has possibilities of that complaint could be valuable in the productiveness of the game. If one has a complaint, and the individual does nothing to adjust or find solutions, it might be only considered complaining.

My opinion, I rather have people both complain and critique. We are entitled to our thoughts being heard.


Also win percentages are fluffed, either by npcs or being in an opportunity to face underprepared players or under level. If 32's faced only 32's, the likely percentage will be 40%-high 60%. There are so many variables in matches that they end in many possible fashions.


If the game ever adds a strategic board, then the true percentages will be revealed. As of now, we play with all resources available. Win ratio means nothing in this game, especially in 1v1. 2v2 is a bit more accurate since there is less variables to encounter. And the issues that happen, it tends to cycle through all players and calibers



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