RE: Overpowered and Balanced (Full Version)

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jegaggin -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/13/2011 20:35:27)

I propose these changes which would make the game more balanced
Proposed changes
Lower Emp to increasing every 5
Get rid of the support requirement for tech mages Deadly aim (mages needed variety!)
Lowering the amount that atom smash takes but making it unblockable
stats start decreasing at 60 or 70 instead of 50 because no one just stops at 50 stat points.
take out the 20% resitance ignore from surgical strike
Buff the supercharge ability
take out the the bloodlust requiement
Slightly buff mercs hybrid armor to compete
against the buffs of bounty hunter and mage
(ends at 15) Make it have a slight dex requirement such as the max level needs 30 or 40 dex.



Bob. -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/14/2011 1:57:16)

Underpowered is non varium techmages. They really can't do ANYTHING. In a 2v2 battle, I was vs two level 30 non varium techmages. I was a level 29 Support Mercenary (Armor and Aux varium) and my partner was a level 27 non varium techmage.

Guess who won?

Us, in a landslide. I only needed to use my aux once and my mult. My partner used plasma bolt once, and that was all.



King FrostLich -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/14/2011 3:30:58)

The only reason why everyone is complaining is because agility came because everyone wanted heal loopers to be nerfed. Served everyone right for complaining mages need nerf now agility is stuck with us forever all thanks to many people's complains. [:@]



xxmirxx -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/14/2011 3:46:34)

quote:

The only reason why everyone is complaining is because agility came because everyone wanted heal loopers to be nerfed. Served everyone right for complaining mages need nerf now agility is stuck with us forever all thanks to many people's complains.



the agility has nothing to do with why mages so are bad. its cause dev's made healing cooling down to 4. in fact if was still 3 we would do even better then beta times. I know just said mage sucks but truth to be told really non varium bountys. there are way more non m varium mages that has 25k wins and beat all boss then bountys. If fact there is not one bounty that has 25k in wins as non varium bounty.



drekon -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/14/2011 13:30:19)

@goldslayer1... Are you really that ignorant? Try to "understand" what I'm saying before you decide to spew nonsense at me. Everything you've said thus far is irrelevant. If you really understood my posts, then you'd know that I've been referring to a time frame long before this recent update(that made everyone's defense weaker, etc). So what you can do "now" doesn't mean squat. Furthermore, just because you "can" respond, doesn't mean you should. So stop babbling on about simple minded ideals. I've yet to receive an answer to my question. You obviously can't provide it.

Understand that I've been a Bounty Hunter since shortly after the first nerf on Shadow Arts(removing the deflect %). Most of the time I used a strength build, and frequently appeared on the 1vs1 Leaderboard. I speak from experience and that is why I agree with Wiseman with the figures he stated. I was there when str BHs got stat requirement nerf and str Merc got relatively nothing. I saw the fluctuation in win percentage and win rate unfold first-hand. I watched as my win % at 100 wins went from 95 to 84 on average. While strength Merc stayed equal or better and getting 20-30 kills more in the same time frame. And yes, because of that I was one of the forum BHs who complained about the unfairness of it all. It wasn't until players began class hopping to use str Merc build that the percentage dropped significantly for most of them, with the exception of a few. So your 1 day winning spree when everyone's defenses have been reduced doesn't measure up.



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/14/2011 13:57:09)

@Wiseman Dont waste your time with Hun King he will deny anything you say that goes against his personal opinions and so called "facts. Anyway good post.



TurkishIncubus -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/14/2011 13:59:29)

@xxmirxx

quote:

the agility has nothing to do with why mages so are bad. its cause dev's made healing cooling down to 4. in fact if was still 3 we would do even better then beta times. I know just said mage sucks but truth to be told really non varium bountys. there are way more non m varium mages that has 25k wins and beat all boss then bountys. If fact there is not one bounty that has 25k in wins as non varium bounty.


Totaly Agree , Agility doesnt Have effect on Healloop and If 3 turn heal Back we will do Healloop better than beta times :) With These incredible high stats modifiers I can do Heallooping Support abuse which will be Incredibly OPED :O



Hun Kingq -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/14/2011 16:15:26)

IsaiahtheMage, Can't you stay on topic in any forum, this one is about Overpowered and ballanced and the posts between me and Wiseman was a debate with different opinions in the past he played a mage but now he plays a bounty hunter so after a couple of updates things change with the mage class and last time I checked this is the United States of America and Wiseman could debate whomever he wants. So if you are going to attack me in this forum as well and can't keep on topic then do not post here unless it is about Overpowered and balance.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/14/2011 16:35:39)

quote:

@goldslayer1... Are you really that ignorant? Try to "understand" what I'm saying before you decide to spew nonsense at me. Everything you've said thus far is irrelevant. If you really understood my posts, then you'd know that I've been referring to a time frame long before this recent update(that made everyone's defense weaker, etc). So what you can do "now" doesn't mean squat. Furthermore, just because you "can" respond, doesn't mean you should. So stop babbling on about simple minded ideals. I've yet to receive an answer to my question. You obviously can't provide it.

Understand that I've been a Bounty Hunter since shortly after the first nerf on Shadow Arts(removing the deflect %). Most of the time I used a strength build, and frequently appeared on the 1vs1 Leaderboard. I speak from experience and that is why I agree with Wiseman with the figures he stated. I was there when str BHs got stat requirement nerf and str Merc got relatively nothing. I saw the fluctuation in win percentage and win rate unfold first-hand. I watched as my win % at 100 wins went from 95 to 84 on average. While strength Merc stayed equal or better and getting 20-30 kills more in the same time frame. And yes, because of that I was one of the forum BHs who complained about the unfairness of it all. It wasn't until players began class hopping to use str Merc build that the percentage dropped significantly for most of them, with the exception of a few. So your 1 day winning spree when everyone's defenses have been reduced doesn't measure up.


obviously u either have a bad build or u dont know how to use it. i was a BH before the the nerf aswell. and my winrate was the same as before with str BH. u just cant admit the fact that str mercs aren't OP. str merc before go 85% with npcs
now they are 70-80%
while just as before BH remained the same. u say stat got reduced this and that, guess what str BH manage to to still be just as effective as before while str merc were nerfed more than the BH.
also please tell me what is ur "question"



Elf Priest JZaanu -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/14/2011 16:50:44)

As a Mage who used varied tactics, agility, focus and the increase of medic cool-down effected Mages in different aspects. Many Mages who tried to use the 130+ HP build were not able for the damage inflicted by +4/+5 focus damage was extremely great. Mages at that high HP had weakened defenses already but the minus defense amounts of agility made it even more difficult. Their true offense was time, and with the combination of all three (agility,focus,+4medic), the class given them less time, and easily became an extinguished build.

The class that had an expandable build, now was regulated to using compressed builds with moderate success.

Once that occurred the reign of various merc builds which thrive on being compact became the new novelty class.

If a class has a difficult time succeeding, the best indicator is "Class Change" feature. Individuals who stick through the challenging times of any class, and try to find a solution, I commend you.

The game goes in cycles of success; it resembles much like life.

Eventhough the game was, and will be, more difficult for every class in different stages, the will to compete regardless of standing what is the true mark of a strong determined individual is.



drekon -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/14/2011 17:24:10)

@goldslayer1... Wow, I have to give you a round of applause for ignoring facts and jumping to conclusions. All while claiming str Merc aren't overpowered. If you don't know what overpowered is, reread Wiseman's original post. If you really want to know what my question is, reread my posts made on pages 2 and 3. With that said, I'll end this little conversation of ours since you seem to be skipping to topic to make your own misinformed point.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/14/2011 17:35:30)

quote:

is there a reason why us bounty hunters were nerfed (severely in my case) long before strength mercenaries had a slight strength reduction with the recent update?

u mean that?
well then i guess it was in ur case because i still use BH as effective as before.
like i said its either u or ur build. im probably just going to assume both since u keep saying str mercs are OP when we only win 7/10 of the time with NPCs. while str BH wins 9/10
ok maybe it is a fact if u dont have a good build. but im stating my point on statistics here last time i used my strength merc before stat reduction, it was 85% and about 50 wins an hour. after the stat reduction its 75% at 35-45 wins an hour.
before stat reduction str BH for me was about 90% at around 40 wins an hour.
after the stat reduction its about 90% again and still about 40 wins an hour.
again stop trying to say im ignoring facts and explain how this is possible then?
u say str mercs are OP yet u never put urself as a str merc and jump to conclusion saying its OP.



Wiseman -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/14/2011 17:40:15)

Alright, I'll explain it again.

Strength Mercs where overpowered in speed only, not in percent. They only managed 75-85% in most cases but was able to get 50-60 wins an hour even with those percents.

Strength Bounties where able to get 45-55 wins an hour but with 90-95%, so almost equal speeds with much higher percents. Now they get a lower percent, and are a bit slower as well, however some strength bounties (that have specific weapons) still do rather well in both areas.

Both builds where overpowered in their own ways, the only reason that strength bounties where nerfed first is because the population decided to become bounties before they became mercs. That lead to strength bounties being nerfed first because it was discovered first, its that simple.

@Below: Yeah that basically sums it up, win quick and lose quick was the essence of super high strength stun zerk builds. While bounties mostly won in 3-4 turns every time, but more often. I also want to note that both types of builds where able to 3 turn most NPCs which is one of the reasons they where so fast (faster NPCs = more time to get more wins each hour).



goldslayer1 -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/14/2011 17:43:52)

@wiseman
u should probably also explain that those that did went about 60 wins an hour had much higher strength and lower defense so they also lost alot. basicaly the more wins they had the lower the % because u either win quick or die quick.
while with BH there was no if and buts it always went to 4 turns until they used their mass, in some cases if they didn't block they would die in 3.



Wiseman -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/14/2011 23:35:29)

^ I'm pretty sure he was just being silly, what he said reminds me of the team name for that one mini game thay made in the AE Game Challenge.

In any case, I've gone mage and the first build I tried with assimilate (which was a strength build) didn't work out...bot damage is just too much now for me to out damage them. So I decided I'd use what works, and I became a tank mage that utilizes the bots, aux, and assimilate in a nice way. With this build my gun does a maximum of 51 damage, my bot does 59 damage, and my aux does a maximum of 55 damage, and I heal for 48. With 90 hp that's over a 50% heal, so not only do I do high damage, I have a decent heal. As for assimilate I decided to put it level 5 because some players have started to get 2-4 extra energy to escape assimilate. However level 5 is enough to get around that issue, and thanks to the level 5 assimilate I was able to win a lot more battles then I would have without it.

Most of the time the 5 energy drain was just enough to stop a deadly bunker buster, massacre, or artillery strike. It also stopped heals for the most part, it pretty much made some people decide between healing or doing damage. If they used energy booster I usually was able to use a second assimilate and pull of the win anyway. Most of the time I only used assimilate after successfully stunning, unless taking energy was a must, like with tank mercs or some strength bounties. My defense and resistance are both high enough to withstand bot attacks and if I use either of my shields I could survive smoke or malfunction without many issues. Strength mercs where easy after I used technician and assimilate, since their weakness is tech damage, and my bot and aux where very strong.

Overall its a good build, not invincible (no build is) but quite good. Bad luck will still kill it as with any build, but as long as there's not a lot of luck involved you should be able to win or get close to winning with this. If luck is on your side, you shouldn't lose very often.

As for NPC battles, it usually took 5 turns to beat them, but with a bit of practice and a good strategy for them you could probably win in 4. Sometimes doing less damage will win an NPC fight faster then hitting hard all the time.

If you don't have these weapons/armor try to get the stats as close as possible while being +5 focus and around 85-90 health.

Anyway this is the build, enjoy.

http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab81/Wiseman108/Forum%20stuff/WisemansDexMageBuildV4.jpg

@Helloguy: Yes I had good equipment, players with the best equipment will always be stronger then players with all non varium or lower level equipment. If your losing because of your equipment then it has nothing to do with a specific skill, it just means you should get better equipment or tough it out.

I may do an equipment test later and see how older stuff manages now, however I don't expect to beat a player decked out in full level 32-33 gear with only level 30 equipment. If I do then they aren't very skilled, or I'm getting lucky.

Though recently I did play on my alt whose a founder with bunnies and beta gear. At level 29 I was beating level 32 players occasionally. At level 30 I beat all but the best level 32 players when no luck was involved. Skill does play a part, but if you don't have the best equipment, don't expect to win as much.

Back in December 2009 I missed Frostbane, because of that I was stuck with Super Energy Katana for months. During that time, most of the players that did have Frostbane beat me, no matter what build I used. However I wasn't very skilled back then either, so it's hard to say how many of those loses where due to my weapons, and how many where due to mistakes. At one time though I had 2000 loses and 2000 wins. Since then I have gained 66000+ wins and about 7000+ loses, and a lot of those loses was cause of Stun Zerk being an everything or nothing build. I've used strength builds since last November, and honestly I'm ready for a change.



Hun Kingq -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/15/2011 2:16:57)

Well I tried that build and won 2 out of 14 matches with level 4 overload only player I stunned was a mage mercs and bounties did not phase them all. Mercs and bounties conserve their energy when they saw level 5 Assimilation they laugh and stated only 5 and the amount of enrgy you get back at level 5 is not noticeable at all. I tried to stun the bounties to Assimilate but they did not get stunned, leaving me with no energy to heal then I tried to Assimilate blocked letting the bounty to do massacre. A good percentage of mercs have tech so high that the energy weapons is useless against them and the bot damage so low it does not make a difference. Level 5 Assimilation is adequate for the small percent who has low energy and low level players but with high energy it is not. If a merc has 41 points of energy you take away 5 that is 36 points left allowing then to do bunker buster or Artillery which with Artillery at support at 100 base he got over 80 points of damage. With the mage lack of defense getting hit with high power attacks will destroy you everytime. For a strength merc with level 4 technician and level 1 defense matrix activated he cut through them and stunned me like if they did not exist.

Not only try the builds in 1vs1 but 2vs2 as well when your up against 2 mercs with a good amount of energy both have max bunker buster and max artillery as well as physical bots where they either have high support or high tech. As you further play a mage both in 1vs1 and 2vs2 you will soon see what the mage class has to deal with and so little options.

I am always trying different builds and if some tells me to try a build I try it and let them know how it goes.



Wiseman -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/15/2011 2:44:22)

^ Sounds like you just have bad luck to me, I won 67 out of 70 battles with it, and I had no issues. I don't do 2v2 and don't plan to start now, someone else can test it in 2v2, but not me.

Have a nice day.



T.600 -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/15/2011 3:01:02)

That is a fine build Wiseman, the only problems are: having low health (although that is the penalty for using 5 focus), low support ( you might get unlucky, won't get many first strikes etc), and having all energy weapons ( I know you have a physical bot and bludgeon but they are both blockable, so if a bounty used energy shield and blocked your physical attacks you could be in trouble. I personally don't think it is a solution to any of the OP builds (not sure if it was meant to be).



TurkishIncubus -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/15/2011 3:03:21)

@T.600

quote:

That is a fine build Wiseman, the only problems are: having low health (although that is the penalty for using 5 focus), low support ( you might get unlucky, won't get many first strikes etc), and having all energy weapons ( I know you have a physical bot and bludgeon but they are both unblockable, so if a bounty used energy shield and blocked your physical attacks you could be in trouble. I personally don't think it is a solution to any of the OP builds (not sure if it was meant to be).


You mean Blockable right ?? :) Yay!! i corrected 1 sentence with my Bad english XD



Wiseman -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/15/2011 3:08:55)

It wasn't meant to be a solution to overpowered builds, it was just to prove that assimilate is a useful skill and that many underestimate it. I actually didn't have that many issues with energy shield and I did go last quite often and managed to come back and win. I'll admit I did get the occasional block, however with 96 dexterity that's something that should be expected.

Overall the build worked fine, I wouldn't say its the best mage build ever, but as far as +5 tank mage builds go, it worked nicely. I may not have had many physical options, but that's what malfunction is for.

If a bounty can be successful will all physical weapons, why cant a mage do the same with energy?



T.600 -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/15/2011 3:35:57)

Mostly strength bounties can win with all physical weapons, otherwise they can't. Everytime I have faced a tank/focus/support bounty will all physical weapons it has been really easy with the use of defence matrix after smokescreens and high dexterity. I would recommend an 18 stat gun because you can always modify enhancments in order to get the stats you desire. If you're going to stick with an energy gun then go with plasma acp or frostbolt blaster. Yes, it is a great 5 focus tank, the best I have seen is elf priest jzaanu's but yours comes close. Assimilation is a great skill but it shouldn't be relied on, nevertheless I guess you proved your point.



TurkishIncubus -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/15/2011 4:02:26)

Wiseman did you see 6 Lwl Artilary Mercs? they got 133 support and using 3 Artilary with booster (66dmg+ %10 def ignore) and 2 Aux (29-35+38) + They start first and crits alot + 64 heal with 1 lwl Field Medic + Rage in 3 turns

EDIT:Ohh i knew i forgot something , They got 35 def - 35 res and they can open +13 more res with Blood shield

For summerize: they do 198 dmg With %10 def ignore , Average 100 dmg With Aux =298 dmg and they got 35 def and res + 64 Field medic :)

If this Isnt Oped than Nothing can



Wiseman -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/15/2011 4:12:19)

^ Actually yes I did, they where the main reason the strength build didn't work out. After switching to this build I didn't have as much problems with them, though crits can and will always be an issue.



King FrostLich -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/15/2011 4:21:50)

@Hun King: Maybe you should stop having always a lvl 1 field medic build and start upgrading it higher.



Hun Kingq -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/15/2011 9:33:08)

Frostlich, it was at level 4, field medic, with level 7 reroute and with the right build I could get 40 health with level 1. Wiseman, I noticed you tested it with founders armor I have a choice between Space and warbot armor and no matter what I did I could not get anywhere near +48 enhancemnt on Dex, with the chardfade staff or the serpeant warder staff so I ask to try the builds with different armors as well to see if that makes a difference. A true overall test of the build would be both 1vs1 and 2vs2. If you noticed when you battle overpowered builds the use everything that does not use up energy and with aux, side arm, and bot they can get you down enough by the time they use their power attacks you are done or they have energy so high they could use bunker buster then use artillery. Assimilation is useful but can be made better, like being blocked less often and taking away more energy from overpowered builds, just like overload we should be able to stun mercs and bounties more often then it does. Let all mages do a test of that build then come back and let people know how many wins and loses you have as well as if level 5 Assimilation was good enough to make a difference, especially on the highpowered builds with high energy, test it with different armors if you have more than one type.

Since there is no focus with a level 4 stat build level 10 assimilation majority of time I did not take eneough energy away so the mercs could use a high power attack because the average was 60 points of energy couple with 45 so even with 45, 10 points will still leave them with 35 giving the chance to use artillery when they rage. At Level 4 25 battles done 21 wins with one of those running lost 4 3 was to a merc with 93 +40 support merc that had 2 energy boosters not taking enough energy away with assimilation he got to use artillery not only once but twice each battle. I had two strength mercs beat both of them. A level 32 bounty with Azrael's bane sword and cupids bane aux she smoked me first I put on defense matrix she shot me with the aux and got 44 critical damage (he comment was "wow") then the next time she shot me she only got 18.

So because the mercs could boost up their resistance with hybrid armor any energy attacks don't do much to make a difference and with them having energy above 60 level 5 Assmilation would not make a difference because level 10 barely made a difference. People will say Assimilation is fine as it is but when your up against players that have high support, tech or strength it needs to be improved to force them to stop abusing those stats.



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