RE: Overpowered and Balanced (Full Version)

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Wiseman -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/12/2011 3:48:22)

@ Hun Kingq

I'm not gonna debate it, I plan to go mage after I reach level 33 and update some of my old bounty hunter builds. When I do I plan to use assimilate, and we'll see how it goes, personally I'm a person of action, and instead of claiming things, and attempting to prove a point. I actually go out and do those things and prove that my points are true, I will make a successful build with assimilate and I'll post it for others to copy as they like.

In any case until you try the other two classes for yourself and prove your point, my opinion will stay. I go by proof, and without proof to backup your words, I will hold strong to my ideals until I am proven wrong.

Anyway each class is different and just because skills have similar effects doesn't mean they have to be equal, they only skill that is truly meant to be equal between the classes is field medic. Also I wish to point out that mages tend to fight long battles, assimilate can be used multiple times in one fight, while the mage regains energy. However once a bounty or merc uses up their energy for their MP draining skill, they can't get the energy back without energy boosters (or reflex boost).

The bottom line is, each class is unique, and the skills are not supposed to be the same or equal in power to their counterparts. One could argue that because reflex boost gives defense and block chance AND mana regeneration, its unfair to the other shield skills. One could also argue that since mages have the most unblock-able offensive skills out of the three classes, its unfair to the other two classes. The skills of each class are meant to be different from each other, and no amount of complaints saying that its unfair that this skill isn't equal to that skill because it don't have a certain effect will change that.

Here's an example of what I mean:

The multi skills of each class are widely different in how useful they are considered to be, with the bounty hunter multi being the one that's considered to be the least useful. However the bounty multi can be powered up by reflex boost, which gives energy back and improves defense and block chance, but more importantly, if you multi shot 2 players and you have blood lust in your build, you gain HP from BOTH of those players at the same time. The skills work together in a combo that only bounties can use, other classes are similar in how they are made, mages have something that gives them energy back per turn, which is why their energy draining skill takes off so little energy. They have longer battles and with a skill that cost no energy to use, it would be too risky to make it too powerful, because of repeat usage.

I wont try to explain it further, my point is each skill works with the class. Just because a player thinks that a skill should be made like a similar skill, doesn't mean that it will be. Infern0 once said that comparing skills is an unrealistic way to look at class balance, instead you must compare how the class preforms as a whole, and of course provide proof to backup your claims.

Anyway until I actually go mage and make a build with the skill, this will be my last post on the assimilation subject, afterword we'll see just how underpowered the skill really is.



edwardvulture -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/12/2011 4:25:48)

^
Real underpowered-ness is nonvarium :<{



xxmirxx -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/12/2011 5:22:25)

I f you feel wiseman you can do better job as mage. then don't use founder armor or bunny aux. then you can prove to hun king that your better as mage. by way why change class ever month thats true class hoper.



charwelly -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/12/2011 5:33:13)

I toatally agree with you when i lose i get frustrated and blme luck but then i start to relise that it was my falut not theres



Hun Kingq -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/12/2011 5:59:23)

Wiseman I am glad you will try it I know each class skill is unique and different for Assimilation it should have more energy drain then 10 because mercs they could reduce or strength and energy and bounties could reduce our dex and energy, they could do it so much to make a difference. Even if we reduce their tech they still have other powerful skills that they could use that does not improve with tech and jsut 10 points of energy does not make a difference if their energy is high enough. Being in a lot of 2vs2 in the past few days and leveling up to 33 is more proof that what I write is not exaggeration or lies but fact and any player that battle me in 2vs2 or 1vs1 will tell you all what I am writing is true. When I used Assimilation on you, how many times it was blocked? When I used overload on you how many times were you stunned?

I came across a mage with 133 total dex and overload at max two different 2vs2 rounds he tried to stun me or the other player and neither of us got stunned either times so as you could see with that much dex and max overload there was no stun.

This is overpowered: A merc with strength at 143 maul at level 5 and my dex was at 106 two different 2vs2 matches he got huge damage and I got stunned both times and when he used berzerker when I was not stunned his final blow was 55.

With majority of mercs and bounties skills either ignores defense, resistance or both were as the tech mage has no skill that ignores defense, resistance, or both gives a big advantage to the merc and bounty class. Have an equal playing field, since the mage class has nothing to ignore defense or resistance then no other class should have things ignoring defense or resistance. I use to block vampire strike and cheap shot even after being smoke but not anymore.

To add:
Battle a merc with tech at 94+48 he got 63 damage with bunker buster. Maybe if a stat that improves that skill and is above a certain level than that skill is disabled.



Nightwraith -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/12/2011 11:14:56)

I agree with a lot of the points made by Wiseman and other posters. Reactions to balance updates are always strong, but balance is also far from set in stone, which is why we have these discussions. This upcoming release will see many modifications based on suggestions here and in other balance topics, such as a bot damage adjustment, increasing the diminishing returns tiers, and others.



jegaggin -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/12/2011 11:18:18)

thank you very much nightwraith u guys do listen to what we are saying its great to know!



zenix -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/12/2011 11:38:04)

*shiver* Nightwraith replied to a balancing issue thread O.O
*sob* he even added it to the list of known struggles :)

Thank you so much [:)]



Vegafire -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/12/2011 16:13:52)

although they may not reply nightwraith an titan are constantly looking at posts like these and taking them into consideration but honestly i dont think anything is overpowered i am level 26 using normal weapons as a bounty hunter and to be honest i can beat 32's in 2v2 matches even when my teamate leaves its not the item that is overpowered all you require is to find your unuiqe build that is good for you and you will have the tactical edge in battles. i will start experimenting with the new weapons, armour and new builds and upload a few of these good builds from my founder account.



Wraith -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/12/2011 16:35:23)

@Deathshadowslayer

That is impossible. You claim to have killed a level 32 with NORMAL WEAPONS. Unless you are using the -damage thing and using high level weapons such as frostbane/heartbreaker weapons you will find it impossible. In 2vs2, you say you beat a 32 when your partner left. I am a 31 with full Varium items, and I can;t do that.



forums lol -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/12/2011 19:13:42)

Wiseman, a thought I had for that assimilation thing (and for other classes, EMP grenade and Atom Smasher). This is very simple, and I'm not really sure how well this will work. If u put just one measly skill point (the one you get when you're lvl 33?) on assimilation, EMP, or Atom Smasher then you take away at least one energy from your opponent. Especially against stun-zerks that one energy will be the difference whether you lose or not, like making the merc not able to do berserker you, or in other cases, not being able to do some other spell. The main build I can think of that you need to take more than one energy is a Smoke Screen/Massacre build, where you need to take away two energy. I haven't tried this yet, so I'm not sure how it will work, but I think people might get more wins if they can take away that crucial energy. For the most part, you could probably keep your regular build, except maybe moving one skill point to assimilation/EMP/atom smasher. Your guys thoughts on this idea?
P. S. Wiseman, I didn't post this just to prove you wrong, I posted this to see if others could understand my theory on all of this, and how powerful one energy really is.



Blazing_Raiza -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/13/2011 1:21:24)

I hate OP builds, especially Str bounty's, Str mercenaries and support mercenaries
Strength bounty's have lust blood, high strength so if they attack you, they increase their health higher with high attacks.
Strength mercenaries, its obviously overpowered in a 2 kill shot Maul, berserker.
Support mercenaries have higher chance of crit and deflection, every time i face one, most of my attacks are deflection and their Bazooka crits and Artillery strike crits which is practically unfair.


Make stats atleast -60 on each stats so it might balance it a bit



Cookielord12 -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/13/2011 5:31:14)

i have changed to a str mage build and only now i realise how significant shadow arts is. i could easily beat bounties but they block me every battle. now i cannot beat them. its just frustrating. i cant beat them suuport. i cant beat them tank and i cant beat them str. what am i going to do?



goldslayer1 -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/13/2011 5:41:43)

@cookie
use celtic cleaver, it should help you bypass shadow arts unless its lvl 8+



Cookielord12 -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/13/2011 5:52:49)

1. i am outta varium
2. its rare so i cant get anymore
3. i have celtic clover staff but they are still blocking like mad



DarkNight1223 -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/13/2011 5:53:17)

At least someone had the strength and power to show everyone something :)



jegaggin -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/13/2011 6:22:29)

@deathshadow Thats impossible im a fully equip var merc. lvl 33. Ive beaten a 31 and 32 by myself but that was once and i had 2 deflects..



drekon -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/13/2011 14:25:14)

@goldslayer1, my post was directed to Wiseman, not you. Reread my post before you jump to conclusions, obviously you misunderstood me. Also, Wiseman and I agree that strength merc had a higher win percentage and speed than strength bounties. My question is simple. Since strength merc were more overpowered, why were strength bounties nerfed (severely) long before strength merc got a slight reduction in strength in the recent update? If you cannot answer that then please don't bother replying.

@Nightwraith, I'm glad to know that the diminishing tiers will be adjusted soon. I've been meaning to suggest that 50 is too low and that it should be 60 or 70 with an extra 1 or 2 points requirement on each tier. I'm a little worried, but curious, about the bot damage adjustment. With all the nerfing we BHs have sustained over the past few months, I now rely mainly on my robot to win battles. Still, I'm looking forward to the update.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/13/2011 14:34:30)

quote:

my post was directed to Wiseman, not you. Reread my post before you jump to conclusions, obviously you misunderstood me. Also, Wiseman and I agree that strength merc had a higher win percentage and speed than strength bounties. My question is simple. Since strength merc were more overpowered, why were strength bounties nerfed (severely) long before strength merc got a slight reduction in strength in the recent update? If you cannot answer that then please don't bother replying.


first of all i didn't realize this was a closed discussion its a GD for a reason, i can reply or get into the "conversation" if i want to, if u dont like it go to PMs.
secondly
str BH is almost as fast as str merc but has higher winrate.
today i class changed to BH and im trying str Bh atm. so far i gottent 200 wins with it it and 15 losses
(i have 22 extra wins from when i was a merc and about 12 losses from merc)
if u do the math for % for 200 devided by 215 its 93%
i am doing 93% with a str Bh build, and i dont have founder, and im using a phy gun which lowers my % down about 2% for lack of energy damage.
while the average str merc gets 70%-80% now.
while im only behind str merc by like 0-8 wins in speed. but with a much HIGHER %
so please explain this one.

and btw i wasn't a str merc before i switched i was support.



Elf Priest JZaanu -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/13/2011 14:37:20)

If a new board was created for Strategic players, instead of the term is I used "Quality" earlier, I think Strategic Board would sound more appropriate.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/13/2011 14:39:41)

@jzaanu
y not just make a server for them?
seems easier.
and perhaps an NPC server
im sick and tired of having to wait 5-15 secs in between turns.
because other servers are locked main 2 are always crammed and laggy, i get black screen like every 30 mins



Elf Priest JZaanu -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/13/2011 14:47:59)

For GoldSlayer


The server issue is mainly to aid new players. Its more of a guide for these players in how important it is to be on the full servers for battle as opposed to being in a smaller server where the wait-time is much longer. With the wait time, these new players will get frustrated and leave. Hence, new players are lost.

Do be patient with how these servers are. As time moves forward, the developers will address our concerns.

But in regard to Strategic board, the game play is still the same. The difference these players will focus more on each match over speed of culmination of matches.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/13/2011 14:52:54)

@jzaanu
how about just a server that has a lvl requirement?
and make a training grounds/boot camp for the new recruits which gives credits and exp for completing the the boot camp will also teach them about the game, this way we dont have those issues.



Hun Kingq -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/13/2011 15:09:41)

I am glad bot damage will get adjusted because now too many players that have the physical bot is basically using that to fight their battles instead of there skills or weapons and only palyer I malfunctioned they still got 40 points of damage. I only use the bot to debuff or when all my other skills in cool down use it for attacks but I don't use either bot as my primary means of attack just to have a fair fight. Only reasons it seems like overpowering is happening is because the vast majority of skill attacks by mercs and bounties eithers ignores defense, resistance or both and that it takes more stat points now to have a good defense and resistance. I found that to block attacks of the strength merc maul you have to have at least 31 resistance I found this out when I experimented wth a level 1 technician but to have resistance that high, means that a mage will have low attack power because once the energy is used up and everything is in cool down only options is a stick beating, pistol whipping, or Aux hammering, but with low strength and support you are lucky to get more than 20 points of damage per round with any weapon.

We need to see true dimishing returns with stats above a certain level because I surely have not seen it and matter of fact I have seen the damge that attacks inflicts increases.



PD -> RE: Overpowered and Balanced (4/13/2011 15:27:11)

In my opinion, A win Rate % doesn't accurately reflect how good a build is, thanks to the existence of luck factors.

Perfect balance is when everything is not more powerful than anything else - Every build's total statistical (Which means Equalized Stat Values with Xendran's "Fair Gain for loss system" and Equalized Skill Ratios) power is equal within Level and power tier. That would be established by a standard - Which... Epicduel does not have... nor does it want to have one.

Overpowered would be anything above Standard, and Underpowered would be anything below standard.

But then again... Epicduel doesn't have a standard.

hm....



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