RE: The Gap (Full Version)

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One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: The Gap (8/9/2011 17:23:31)

i have one thing to say and this is mainly focused at Cindy becuase she has to deal with it more then us but really its to everyone

The main reason the devs get scwered, if you dont mind me saying, is becuase a handful of influental users on these here forums feel F2P's should not beat or for that matter stand a fighting chance against Varium users and that becuase they pay they deserve an edge. Frankly that is some of the worst logic I have ever heard; first off yes you paid for an edge and you have it in your 15 levels over the best equip F2P i could think of. There is the edge that Variums paid for plain and simple but you did not pay to always win you only paid for an edge and that edge is getting to the point that the edge is the blade of a katana and F2P's are standing on it.(if you don't get the reference a well made katana can cleave two or three people in half with one slice now you can continue readin with that lovely image in your mind)

Secondly if the edge is allowed to expand, to say a Masamune to contunie my wonderful sword analogy, then F2P's will become a rare breed in this game meaning Varium users will pay to be on par with everyone else and not have an edge at all becuase most everyone will use the same cookie cutter build the same gear and the same enhancements so lessening that gap would actully be benifical to everyone in ED



Sipping Cider -> RE: The Gap (8/9/2011 17:42:47)

If the gap were to close up varium players would feel that they are losing power. The power from being able to get free wins every time they fight a non-varium.

If the gap were to close something would need to replace this feeling.

One thing that might gives varium players that power feeling could be defeating NPCs. This has already been introduced through brainwash, but you can only use it 5 times per day and it costs varium so eventually you run out. Another great thing that could give you a power feeling is firing cannons, as in numbers it kills tons but it does nothing to your record, it gives you none of the rewards gained from battle, and you also run out of varium eventually. Plus, all of these alternatives to dominating PvP battle are not as good as beating real players, but there will be less real players to beat if they have no chance at winning.

Hopefully with the release of tournaments, where you want every extra stat you can get, a closing gap will not discourage players to upgrade and winning tournaments could be a great source of that power feeling.



xxomegafaustxx -> RE: The Gap (8/9/2011 17:59:25)

@One Winged Angel1357

I totally agree with your rational thinking. And if I were in Cinderalla's situation, I would feel the same way too.

I liked your analogy on the "Katana blade" reference to nonvarium players. If you haven't already, you may also read my analogies on the horse-cart-man analogy and the worm-bird analogy if you haven't done so already. Other than that, I would like to extend your analogy if you don't mind and nicely blend it in my arguments.

Imagine this: It is the dawn and day of the samurai. The samurai in this story fight with courage, daunting bravery, skill and above all, honour. Japan is at peace when suddenly, the emperor challenges all the samurai to enter a dueling tournament to see which samurai is the best in the land. The samurai of Japan accept the challenge and they journey across many lands to fight and win the respect and deference of the Emperor. These samuarai are a greater analogy to the players of ED as the Emperor is the mere developer of the game who has inaugurated the challenge.

But in the story, there are many different samurai. They have different ways of fighting, builds and also expertise to win sword battles as many were brought up or were taught their specific ways. However, the main difference lies in the fact of the weapon the samurai each carry as it varies amongst different samurai. There are those who wield the simple katana and fight with a single blade which is the least expensive, low grade in material and affordable if it breaks for the average Japan warrior. And there are those also who wield a single blade like the simple samurai but there blades have been sharpened by only the finest of wielders in Japan as granted by the Emperor making the duel favour their side as their blade is much more sharper than the simple samarai. No matter the weapon, each samurai upon battling each other uses their weapon, their skills and expertise to prove victor in the battle. The simple samurai who wields the least expensive sword can also compete healthily, with honour and equality with the samurai who has a sharper blade. This is the analogy for how the competition of nonvarium and varium users should be.

But the samurai with the sharper blade finds that the battles are too long and competitive with the average samurai warrior. He wants to find an easy-way out to get the attention of the Emperor. It is this moment, instead of using his sharper blade, he finds a gun and uses it in battle. He decides to discard his traditional virtues of the sword and honours the gun as his weapon to make him a much more formidable foe. When the simple samurai challenges him to a fair and honourable duel, he is beaten greatly by the gun's unfair advantage over his sword. And as now, the formal samurai who has adopted the gun, cremates the whole population of sword users in the country of Japan. This analogy is what is happening currently.

As the samurai of the sword faces this problem, he can only pray that the situation get better by holding his sword or adopting the gun. As the amount of honoured users of the sword diminish, the battle to win the Emperor's bet is only enlarged . The balance between each battle are highly imbalanced due to more using the gun as a quicker and effective alternative and more users to abuse it's powers. And slowly, the way of the samurai becomes another long forgotten history of the Japan culture. And for those who still find hope, it is found by the man carrying the sword. He is among a rare breed of honoured warriors who believe that honour, skill and equality should be valued in battle.

And of course, the warrior with the gun won't admit this because it has given him a far greater advantage in the effort to win the Emperor's praise. But the flaw in the story exists the very challenging notion that the samurai who has adopted the gun has ultimately given up it's honorary virtues before. He has disowned his sword and disembarked and a journey that only causes destruction to his identity as a former samurai. And when he approaches the Emperor, he will find that he does not recognize him. He, after all the battles against the noble samurai, is regarded to be no longer a samurai but a western gunner. The Emperor can not give him the title of "being the best samurai of Japan" because no longer is he a samurai. The "Gunner", weeps and enraged, continues to abuse wielders of the sword only hoping to garner the attention of the Emperor.

But that won't happen because no matter how hard he tries, he will still be regarded as a gunner. The only way he can change his identity to the Emperor is if he disowns his gun and brings his blade he threw a long time ago and faithfully use it to honor the battle between his foes.

And is only then, will those who adopt the gun see the very flaw that stands in believing their is a definite end to short-cuts. They will see that ultimately, the option of adopting the gun was a grave one and and has led them to their shortcoming and doom. Whilst, the samurai with the sword may flee away from Japan, scared of the GUN, and never return back ever to see the Emperor or even have the confidence to win his praise. New samurai who take up the journey from lands away from Japan are discouraged because they themselves can't compete in the Atmosphere making the Emperor's challenge empty and the population of samurai to decrease over time. This is an analogy of the future of ED if we continue to embrace the GAP>

So to cut to the chase, we to should NOT follow the samurai in the story. We must become the samurai before who used to compete healthily and see eachother's differences as a way to improve ourselves as players.

I challenge you to become a samurai player in ED: Fight fairly, honestly and with integrity. Don't approve the GAP but lessen it. Take up the SWORD and fight with honour!



Fatal Impact -> RE: The Gap (8/9/2011 18:06:36)

You type like theres no tomorrow.



xxomegafaustxx -> RE: The Gap (8/9/2011 18:11:58)

@Fatal Impact

Haha, I like writing and reading. And of course, there is a tomorrow: I write for a "tomorrow".



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: The Gap (8/9/2011 18:13:32)

@Faust that is a lovely story that sum things up pretty well right here when you see that black powder sidearm on the guys hip you got two options be really lucky and have the guy miss at point blank range or deflect the bullet with your blade(both of which are possible and can be done in real life.) or you can get shot and hope for a quick death instead of years of suffering

now to bring it back to ED
the luck of them missing or you deflecting is just that in ED you crit and block like its your job and beat a Varium user.
the instant kill of the gun wound is you quiting or buying varium thus ending your time as a F2P either way
the prolonged suffering is you sticking it out as a F2P in current conditions or worsening conditions

also rational thinking is something i pride myself becuase i have no emotional attactment to this or any game so i can discuss them from all points of view



Shadronica -> RE: The Gap (8/9/2011 18:21:46)

Just let me throw something into the melting pot here ....

I feel that the opportunity to obtain a great armor for both varium and non varium should be dropped as a rare in a 2v1 NPC battle. Its about time that EpicDuel considered other ways to reward players for mighty efforts other than making them have to pay money for everything.

This way at least both varium and non varium players would at least be able to obtain a rare armor to be proud of. Also it would be an interesting and challenging element of the game.

If a mod wants to delete this post and tell me that it belongs in the suggestion area then it will be to ED's detriment as nothing gets read in the myriad of posts there.

Its about time EpicDuel stopped trying to lever every bit of money out of its varium players and brought back some challenging, interesting and fun aspects back to the game.




Angels Holocaust -> RE: The Gap (8/9/2011 18:30:06)

@ Shadronica

What about my battle tokens idea? That's way better than a random drop.



ArtixRadinGod -> RE: The Gap (8/9/2011 18:31:06)

^ Totally agree



Sipping Cider -> RE: The Gap (8/9/2011 18:31:55)

quote:

I feel that the opportunity to obtain a great armor for both varium and non varium should be dropped as a rare in a 2v1 NPC battle. Its about time that EpicDuel considered other ways to reward players for mighty efforts other than making them have to pay money for everything.


This is an interesting idea, but I would suggest against it. For one, the people that usually win those battles are varium players, so the armor would be going to the varium players. Plus, an idea like this was already implemented through the arcade, which turned out to not help the majority of non-varium players.

quote:

If a mod wants to delete this post and tell me that it belongs in the suggestion area then it will be to ED's detriment as nothing gets read in the myriad of posts there.


Hehe, I read the suggestions. Sometimes there are some really good ones and it gives me good ideas or sometimes I like to discuss the ideas through PMs.



xxomegafaustxx -> RE: The Gap (8/9/2011 18:37:44)

Battle tokens are irrelevant to this forum unless you can tie that in as a succinct argument supporting your views on enlarging or lessening the GAP.

Please, focus on this issue and divert your attention to the forum's standing question:
quote:

The Gap between var and non-var players. Do you think its too big or too small?



Shadronica -> RE: The Gap (8/9/2011 18:40:45)

Sunguardian the whole point of obtaining a rare armor is from the effort that is made to get it. Whether you are a varium or a non varium player the opportunity for it to drop remains the same for everyone. Yes it would be harder for a non varium to win but certainly not impossible! Especially if you have a good partner that you can both implement a battle plan to beat the 2v1 NPC.

Plus I did say it would be a rare drop so that does not necessarily mean that varium players are going to get it.

Rewards for efforts is by far more fun.

If your a lazy player then be prepared to reap what you sow.

Yes the gap is too large between varium and non varium players and yes it is a fine balance to still give the paying customers the advantage they pay for but I do think that ideas like the one I have presented are ways to help counteract some of the damage that has been done.



xxomegafaustxx -> RE: The Gap (8/9/2011 18:45:13)

@Shadronica

I think the first step is decreasing the marginalization of stats from the nonvarium and varium tier. And saying that:

quote:

it is a fine balance


is not going to resolve the issue. Yes, players who purchase varium should be getting what they deserve but the advantage should not convey unfair dueling! Please read to what I have conscientiously made regard to in my last posts. I've been ferevish in trying to get the very same message across, it's just that many don't see it. Varium users are the victims of this impending GAP which gets larger and larger and in due time, creates an unfair ecology to compete.

And if you haven't be
quote:

prepared to reap what you sow.
because you may gain an enlightened perspective from my posts. Because if you were a nonvarium player, I would believe you would feel just how I am feeling as of right now.



Shadronica -> RE: The Gap (8/9/2011 18:58:49)

I totally agree xxomegafaustxx but it won't happen sorry. The enhancements are the "golden egg" by which EpicDuel is making their bucket loads of money. I was fine with enhancements on our primary weapons and perhaps even on our armor BUT the enhancements on our guns and zookas where the real killers causing a most unstable platform with the stat stacking.

The stat stacking effects everyone in every battle but Titan and Nightwraith will not retrace their steps plus there is far too many varium players who will squeal if you took any of their enhancements now.

No the only way I can see around this is to give all players an equal opportunity by their own efforts to obtain items to help them.

Then we will see a far more interesting platform which will make it more interesting and challenging. It would be so much better if we had more diversity from the items that we could obtain.

Perhaps even get rare drops that will allow you to use it just once to stun an opponent or to do a dot attack just once in a battle. All these things would make our battles more interesting.

I also feel that we need more life (HP) so that when we get crits it won't affect the whole outcome of the battle. We should be able to recover from a critical without it destroying us for the match.

I really feel its about time Titan and Nightwraith looked outside the bubble to fix these unfair matches.



demonred1 -> RE: The Gap (8/9/2011 19:02:03)

The gap does need to be reduced a bit more. The bot nerf for one has reduced the Varium-Non Varium Gap. If you get Max enhancements as a non varium player which is rare you would reduce the chance of yourself losing to a varium player.



xxomegafaustxx -> RE: The Gap (8/9/2011 19:12:25)

@Shadronica

The fact of the matter is it will happen. Why, because it is within our grasp as a community to make changes!

Think about it this way: When a new feature was ever implemented and many people disliked it, we bickered because we find strength and resolve in our numbers. And if there were those who wanted to introduce new features, it was because we as a community wanted those changes to be implemented within the interface! And example is agility: People wanted the change and the Devs granted it! So yes, it can work, it just that we need the support and approval of everyone single member of the community.

Yes enhancements were the "golden egg", but whatever happened to the "golden chicken'? I ask you which of the two do you value more?

I would say the golden chicken because it can produce the golden eggs. Because the golden chicken can sustain itself, producing more and more golden eggs that bring "bucketloads to the ED devs". And why is this the case? Because the golden chicken is of equal value to the egg. But lets say for fun that there was no such thing as a golden chicken. Let's say it was just a regular chicken which had the ability to poop out these eggs. What many people are overlooking is that the regular chicken is as important as the golden egg.

Which brings me to challenge your statement: The golden eggs should not be the aim for the DEVS, it should be the chickens! And what are the chickens? The folk that play the game that ultimately market interest and in due time, produce the success of the ED platform. More users and the game becomes way more sucessful than just one feature itself. What ED needs is more chickens and not "golden eggs" to evolve and develop as a game.

What ED doesn't need is not the golden egg itself but the primary monetary incentive to do so. It means that the chicken must be equated along the sucess factors of ED as a game and not just the money it recieves. Because the chicken yields the golden egg for sucess and it is not the egg that does so alone.

I agree that every player should have an equal opportunity. But if that opportunity is compromised by unfair levels for a player to compete,



Sipping Cider -> RE: The Gap (8/9/2011 19:16:43)

@Shadronica

All though your ideas might be really good, they do not belong here. We are not discussing whether changes will happen or not, but rather what the changes should be and whether there should be change. I do not see dropping armor or having more health in battles helping non-variums.

If anything, less health helps them since if they critical they have a better chance of winning the battle against a varium. This brings up my idea I had on criticals:


One good thing about critical is that they give hope to a player that would otherwise for surely lose. They make a battle unpredictable and uncontrollable. This is good for those fights were a far more experienced player fights a beginner player or a non-varium fights a varium.

For those battles that are fairly equal and both players are hoping to play a strategic game, it is unwanted.

I would like to see critical improve with the win percentage difference between the players and the base chance become 0.

Win percentage difference--------------Chance of critical
0-----------------------------------------0
10----------------------------------------1
20----------------------------------------3
30----------------------------------------5
40----------------------------------------7
50----------------------------------------9
60----------------------------------------11
70----------------------------------------13
80----------------------------------------15
90----------------------------------------17
100---------------------------------------19

*Note that this chance is only for the player who has less win percentage. Also, Azreal's Bane still effects whoever has its chance to critical.

This would nerf support, still give inexperienced players a chance, and make people happy for those battles that players want to be strategically based.



@Below
Yes it is flawed, but please post about that in a different thread or start a new thread. I want this thread to stay on topic and get the attention it deserves.



Shadronica -> RE: The Gap (8/9/2011 19:31:18)

The point is this Sunguardian. The pvp system itself is not just a problem for varium vs non varium. The pvp system is flawed ... full stop.

Titan, Nightwraith, Cinderella and the balance team are more than aware that we all have problems with the system as it stands.

@ above. You are not the OP so don't troll or mini mod please.



xxomegafaustxx -> RE: The Gap (8/9/2011 19:53:59)

@Shadronica

Or course, any PvP system is flawed. It is flawed at the very start when there exist creation of the upper tier users as such users preside as a advantage over the f2p's. But it's not so much as a flaw but a problem that has discontinued the games overall success to evolve and grow. In terms of evolving, it hasn't inhibited the growth of players that come in and the players that continue to stay. It has inflamed the nonvarium community so greatly that we as users feel neglected from the ED platform interface.






Shadronica -> RE: The Gap (8/9/2011 20:09:12)

Its called Elitism xxomegafaustxx. This game has cultivated Elitism. It has been posted in many many many posts.



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: The Gap (8/9/2011 20:11:37)

@demonred1 even with full enhancments on teh best F2P gear i could find the Variums still have 29 points on a F2P which is 7 levels then 2 more from the defence so thats a 9 level gap which is better then the much more common 15 level gap but still a tab bit higher then i would like to see



Infinity Everlasting -> RE: The Gap (8/9/2011 20:31:48)

The current gap is fine, though only for completely dedicated players who can switch to tactical merc. Though the staff have been releasing better and better weapons for non-var players and is gap is gradually getting smaller, if varium weapons maintain their current state in terms of stats and enhancement slots.



xxomegafaustxx -> RE: The Gap (8/9/2011 21:06:26)

@Shadronica

Every game cultivates Elitism so I'm not surprised of it or because of it. But Elitism can also exist in the nonvarium crowd likewise the varium tier. And I am not arguing for or against Elitism, that has nothing to do with this forum. Elitism is natural because it's only natural for all users to feel that they deserve special treatment or attention. I'm not going to school you; I know you already know what it means but I'll post it up for people who don't know:

Elitism is one's (as quoted on an online dictionary)

quote:

belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue


Elitism has occurred on both sides of the spectrum: The nonvarium and varium, morseso the varium one. This is because the devs must have an obligation to value the opinion of those who purchase in the game. But all I'm asking as a nonvarium is that they value our opinions as well and that it may be weighed equally to a varium one's. But sometimes that isn't the case because "money speaks for itself".

WIth that reasoning, I'm fine as it stands. But there are varium users who abuse this "elitist" privilege and continue to undermine updates that focus on nonvariums that may be detrimental to them in the game. Because they want to obtain the HIGHEST ADVANTAGE known possible and KNOW THAT it has created a competition of UNFAIRNESS. What they don't know is that it is hurtful to the community because with less and less nonvariums, the ED game can't continue. Free players provide the reason for varium as a voluntary incentive to the game's interface. And with our opinions constantly ignored or given a cold shoulder by varium user and supporters who continue to "enjoy the luxury of the GAP", it is hard to reach consensus with the varium folk. The devs have held this for as long as the game started, even Cinderalla voiced this in her post:

quote:

So, keep in mind that there's a challenge for us on how to close this gap while not alienating our premium players.

So yea, varium users may win this shortcoming, but in the long run, they'll feel obliged to also commit to the nonvarium crowd and listen to what they say. That is because they need them to: like the worm and bird analogy.post #44 @rej




igfod13 -> RE: The Gap (8/9/2011 21:12:00)

I'm going to quickly share my opinion on this and be as objective as I can.

First of all, I think its entirely up to Titan and Nightwraith to decide whether or not to make non-variums "competitive".

If you want non-variums to be able to win, then the enhancement gap must be reduced. The easiest way is to yet again, reduce enhancement prices. Over 100k for a fully enhanced carrierzooka or celtic clover staff, for example, just ain't gonna cut it. Enhancements have become so important to this game that they should pretty much be dirt cheap now. If this happens, varium enhancement prices should be lowered too, reducing costs(and anger) for players, yet reducing profit for the company. Many players would probably want a "refund" (credit and varium), which I feel should be given xD. Another option instead of reducing enhancement prices is to install a credit sellback for enhancements. This allows non-variums to retain more credits and be able to change weapons more easily.

If you do not want non-variums to win, then keep things the way they are. Right now, most non-variums will not win against full varium players unless they get very lucky, or the opponent does moves that are not optimal.

Basically, this is not something we should be arguing about, but something for the developers to decide. We players should not decide on how the developers decide to run this game financially and how they want to market the game. Do they want varium to be a necessity or a decent advantage? It's up to them to decide, not us.

As for this, I think the devs/Cinderella should come out and let us know about how "competitive" non-variums should be. Then, we can start suggesting ways to implement their ideas.

-okdude, proud non-var.

BTW the stat gap between varium and non varium is like 30-50 stats. That's like 10 levels=80 health or 8 more damage(str).



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: The Gap (8/9/2011 21:25:21)

@above its 15 levels we did the math a page or two back
but besides that you are right to an extent the idealism behind ED at one point and possibly still is to have the players create the bulk of the ideas behind the game once the Devs got the ground work laided and we are starting to see more and more player suggested ideas cropping up so it is completely possible the fate of the Gap could be in our hands

other then teh possilbity that the fate of the Gap could fall into our hands, well minds, you are correct



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