RE: The Gap (Full Version)

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One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 15:43:50)

decimation is 0% chance of winning in a fair fight
Crushing is 25% chance of winning in a fair fight


and to make things clear a Fair fight is no blocks crits or deflections




TurkishIncubus -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 15:46:00)

@OWA

quote:

turk not many of us F2P's have fully enahnced gear but if we got back to my math work on page four lets find the gap between fully enahcned F2p and full enhanced Vairum


Thats not my problem , if a F2P player can do than everybody can.

quote:

Fully enhanced Varium has 114 stat modifers
Fully enhanced F2P has 85 stat modifers

114-85=29


do you see ? i spent +700 $ to this game and i have only 29 stat advantage , also you cant add skills(defensive buffs) because they are completely about strategy some varium players dont use shields.

And like i said 114 stat is the best varium player can have now image that a varium player doesnt have eggzooka + stun gun + Limited rare armor , the stat difference will be much lower.
@ theSunguardian

quote:

but I would rather see those benefits elsewhere besides in the PvP arena


What?! , sry but i dont think anybody will give 700$ just to have good looking.This will cause nobody get varium and this game will be closed




Callisto -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 15:48:31)

@Turkish it's nice to see your opinion as well although talking from experience here,the gap is in fact too big.
For example as a non var mage I was hardly able to have 200 more wins than losses in 2vs2.From the point I got varium until now my record has increased to 3000 more wins than losses.
As a non var I was hardly able to compete with others while now,non variums don't stand a chance against me.

Also,enhancements require large amount of credits.Hardly any non varium player can afford full enhancements.And even if they do,7 lvls is big disadvantage.

As I said before,varium should give you slight advantage,not make you superior.Not make non variums free wins,not taking every chance of competing from non variums.
Game should be fair and enjoyable for everybody,you shouldn't have to pay to enjoy the game.




Sipping Cider -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 15:48:35)

Well, I would prefer crushing vs decimation too if that is the definition.

quote:

and to make things clear a Fair fight is no blocks crits or deflections


I would like to point out that if no crits or blocks or deflections happen then it is not a fair fight for the person who had more dexterity or support.





One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 15:50:45)

you paid $700+ on a 2D flash game to have 9.25 levels on a F2P on a best case event from my persepective on a more realistic event its 15.25 Levels

also by not many i mean i havent seen a single one ever above lv 15 which means 3-5 slots not 20+ slots

if using luck to win is part of your tactics you fight dirty i use Support to improve my heal and Aux damage and Defence to make sure a physical attack doesnt level me




TurkishIncubus -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 15:54:50)

@Calli

quote:

@Turkish it's nice to see your opinion as well although talking from experience here,the gap is in fact too big.
For example as a non var mage I was hardly able to have 200 more wins than losses in 2vs2.From the point I got varium until now my record has increased to 3000 more wins than losses.
As a non var I was hardly able to compete with others while now,non variums don't stand a chance against me.


Dont get me wrong but New Hope is a non varium player and she is 1st in alltime.And she has higher % than full varium Morrigan (2nd one in the list)




One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 15:56:25)

@Turk every rule has exceptions and picking the exception instead of the average to prove your point only works some times




Sipping Cider -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 15:57:36)

quote:

Dont get me wrong but New Hope is a non varium player and she is 1st in alltime.And she has higher % than full varium Morrigan (2nd one in the list)



Once again, good point. I think that the possibilities for non-varium players are good enough, the problem is getting to that point. If there were more ways to get credits, or enhancements cost was lowered, or if enhancements were not such a big factor in battles than I would feel the gap would be successively placed.




xxomegafaustxx -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 16:00:09)

I like you and all users who are browsing this forum to first read this before you continue to posts. This is to answer your question on terms of the GAP:

Analogy Summary @rej : The ecological competition between both nonvarium (the worm) and the bird (varium) must be intact in order for the ecology to sustain itself. Revoke the opportunity of the worm and you also revoke the chance of the bird's natural ability to grow. This is because they both indirectly and directly need each other to sustain themselves within the ecosystem.

Analogy Summary: Horse-Man-Cart Analogy. To work together and achieve maximum success, both the horse and the man need each other. In order to do so, both must understanding the suffering induced by each party: The horse's suffering by the whip and the capacity for the dog to understand he/her owners commands. WE must understand each other on the SAME LEVEL. Comments regarding what one should do and so forth won't help a community in generally. Sure it may help one individual, but it won't help the community's ability to grow. This is because "Actions speak louder than words". Proactively, we must mend the GAP and not school those who are victims of it.

A good teacher does not scold the student if he/she is wrong. A good teacher helps the student understand the problem. A good teacher takes action and not verbally. Sure, some bright kids may understand the problem from the teacher's instructions but most of them don't. The teacher must understand the student's level of knowledge so that he/she may enact teaching plans that conform to the student's grasp on the subject.

Analogy Summary: To work together and achieve maximum success, both the horse and the man need each other. In order to do so, both must understanding the suffering induced by each party: The horse's suffering by the whip and also the dog's capicity to learn as an animal. WE must understand each other to evolve by our differences and not against.

Analogy Summary: Samurai. In a PvP atmosphere, we must duel and resolve unfair playing into fairness for both competitors. That means dueling with integrity and above all honour. As a samurai, we should stand against inequality not fight for equality.

Post Summary @DeathSpawn : The proposed stat marginalization for the GAP

Post Summary: This is my equation for ED

Post Summary: Answers the question of and yours: How to close the gap, while still getting the same amount of varium purchasers or getting even more varium purchasers?


Turkish, the reality of the matter is there is a GAP. You may argue that there is always going to be a GAP in any game the moment there exists a monetary group of users that wishes to "purchase" an advantage. But such an advantage should not undermine nor impede the healthy ecological competition that of the nonvarium user!

I am a commander nonvarium mage with fully enhanced slots on all my weaponry. I may be able to compete but against the average varium user, they scale 20 or 30 more stat points. The average nonvarium player well have a tremendous difficulty to rival such stats. And to think about it, most nonvarium users are not within the "veteran" nonvarium level. Even as a nonvarium mage, I find it very hard. If you were a nonvarium currently, you would feel the pronounced gravity of this matter much more.

[EDIT]

quote:

Dont get me wrong but New Hope is a non varium player and she is 1st in alltime.And she has higher % than full varium Morrigan (2nd one in the list)


She is just one player. Please don't make the generalization that all nonvarium player's likewise have her status.




TurkishIncubus -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 16:01:26)

@OWA

if she can do than any non varium can do same. My logic works like this.

She is a non varium and she has higher win and ratio than varium player , is it only me in here thinking there is no gap. :/




One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 16:01:36)

@Turk you also forgot to factor in the affectivenes of a class in an area New Hope is a TLM former Merc in 2v2 the area best suited for them now if you asked me to do what New Hope is doing it would be impossible becuase TM's are not best suited or 2v2 and as for 1v1 TM's are also not best suited for that as STR Support and Most 5 focus builds will destroy us quickly as well




TurkishIncubus -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 16:03:41)

^

:D this is class balance not about the Gap also class change is 50,000 credits :)




Sipping Cider -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 16:06:43)

@TurkishIncubus

I think it is only you who thinks there is no gap, but do not give up your opinion so easily. You have already pointed out some things that we (the people who think there is a gap) have not brought up like New Hope. Your opinions give us more to think about and to adjust our opinions too.




One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 16:07:24)

your arguement about New Hope had two sides and you were just sharing the side which suited you so i had to share the counter story


also Faust welcome back to the party




Ubear -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 16:08:19)

quote:

and to make things clear a Fair fight is no blocks crits or deflections
What?? How is a 'fair fight' classed as no blocks, crits or deflections.... A fair fight in my opinion would be that each player gets their stat bonuses in each fight. A support build expects to deflect and critical, it would actually be unfair if they didn't. It would also be unfair for someone who uses Reflex Boost to not block. I hope you can see where I'm coming from




OmilliYo -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 16:09:27)

Its not that big a gap... i think

Varium Commandos and above Level 33 are my only problem

I have a slight chance of winning with my non-varium character against a level 33 varium hero or warlord




xxomegafaustxx -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 16:10:04)

@Turkish

You are comparing one user to many. That is an overstated generalization. Can the average nonvarium player achieve such a status? My answer is yes but in this context no. Why? Because it takes years and months of commitment not every nonvarium player can do. And we're not talking about "THE POTENTIAL OF AN INDIVIDUAL", we are talking about "THE COMMUNITY's POTENTIAL TO GROW", and in a more specific sense, the underpowered nonvarium tier.

Sure you can say that yes, everyone can be like him or her. But here, we're talking about the stat marginalization that has created a unfair atmospher for competing. Yes, you can say to every one out there "Be like New Hope" but it isn't going to help a community of nonvariums in generally. Would it help to say that "Everyone can be as rich as Bill Gates". Yes and no because most can't achieve that sort of potential. And if that were true, how many can be as successful as Bill Gates? Only a minority and not a majority. You are stating that everyone "can be", not everyone "will be".

If I was a motivational speaker, that would be the case. But this isn't one.

@OWA

Thank you, it's glad to see this topic revived.




One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 16:11:14)

@Ubear if i had a Dex based build as a F2P and fought a Varium and i blocked once and won the Varium would claim i won by luck same goes for if i deflected or critted the Varium in all three events say that i won by luck so in a fight which neither side can say the other won by luck you would have to have a fight with no blocks deflects or crits

now i hope you understand why a fair fight is such an odd thing




Callisto -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 16:12:54)

If you want to compare New Hope and Morrigan,New Hope was merc from the very start and tac merc right now.She has always been the best class for 2vs2.As for Morrigan,she has spent a lot of time as a bh,class least suited for 2vs2 at that time.Their lifestyle is also very different,they don't have same amount of free time.
quote:

if she can do than any non varium can do same.

This is incorrect.Not everybody is the same,not everybody has same amount of free time,same class,same skills...Just because one player is on top of leaderboard,you cannot expect everybody to able to get there as well.It isn't logical.For making logical statements you should use an average player,not the best.
quote:

is it only me in here thinking there is no gap

There is a gap for sure.You don't see it cause you expect it.Just cause few non varium players have managed to prove themselves as one of the best it doesn't mean there's no gap.




TurkishIncubus -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 16:13:19)

@OWA

quote:

your arguement about New Hope had two sides and you were just sharing the side which suited you so i had to share the counter story


i like to learn the other story , i really dont know the other side :/ , is she hacked - dummied(i thought this is imposible in 2vs2) ?




One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 16:16:00)

@Turk your side of the story she is the best in 2v2 and she is F2P
my side of the story both of her classes are best suited for what she is doing which allows her to be what she is but that does not mean every F2P merc to be TLM can pull off what New Hope has done like Faust said only a slim percentile will pull it off




Ubear -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 16:18:36)

quote:

if i had a Dex based build as a F2P and fought a Varium and i blocked once and won the Varium would claim i won by luck same goes for if i deflected or critted the Varium in all three events say that i won by luck so in a fight which neither side can say the other won by luck you would have to have a fight with no blocks deflects or crits

now i hope you understand why a fair fight is such an odd thing

Thankd for the explanation, I get where you are coming from but luck is only one of the main factors in a fight. A varium player could of had a crappy build. If your opponent was a high STR varium bounty hunter with low dex, and you had a non-varium blood mage high dex build, it's obvious you would block him. His reliable damage comes from something that can be blocked. So stat bonuses will play a part there and not luck.




One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 16:22:29)

@Ubear true but for teh sake of this arguement lets just you and I are both TLM's using the exact same skills and the stats are only slightly different as to not have wasted points




IsaiahtheMage -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 16:23:22)

@Turkish You have to look at the view of a average Non-Varuim player. New Hope is one Pro Non-Varuim player. Just because she can does not mean all the others can. On top of that she is 1 class their is 6. Which are all different. You cant possibly say just because she can they all can. Only a fully enhanced Level 33 Non-Varuim could possibly have nearly 85 stats. How many level 33 fully equipped and enhanced Non-Varuims have you seen? Because their numbers are very very slim. In order to be fully enhanced that would take a insane amount of credits. Most high level Non-Varuim weapons have 6 slots. 6 slots cost 50,000. So 4 x 50,000 = 200,000. Lets be realistic. How many level 33 Non-Varuims have 200,000 credits to use on enhancements? On top of that who has even a fraction of that? That is the price excluding the amount to buy the weapons themselves.

Wait forget how many level 33 Non-varuims can get 200,000 credits. How many level 33 Non-Varuims do you see in PvP? I see barely none. If I am lucky I seen them in maybe 1 out of 20 battles. Their is clearly a GAP issue. Your entilted to your opinion and your belief. But I do not see what realistic view your coming from. Can you please clarify? Please make your view more clear. Because IMO. For the average Non-var to be level 33 fully equipped and enhanced and have a good ratio. It is not rationale to me. Most Non-Vars eitheir quit or become a Varuim player before they even reach that level. So I would appreciate if you would tell me what realistic view are you coming from?




xxomegafaustxx -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 16:25:45)

@Ubear

Luck is suppose to resolve from spontaneity. And such spontaneity resolves from a minuscule percentage for an event to occur. Paradoxically on a greater level, a strength abuser may have the % to critical even if his/her build has very low support. But the matter is that the event, even though unfavoured by the % of the event to occur has occurred. This is where I see my understanding with luck.

But to say that one has "won from luck" and if such was seen showcased in a nonvarium and varium battle shows disappreciation to the nature of sponteniuty. That is because the varium player can also achieve the same based on luck. Sure, if you pair up the two in 10 battles, the varium user would win most of the time. But please divert your attention to the GAP in terms of stats.




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