RE: The Gap (Full Version)

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xxomegafaustxx -> RE: The Gap (8/9/2011 21:30:39)

@igfod13

You've stated excellent ways to combat the GAP. As already "echoed" in my feverish posts involving this matter, I too believe that lessening the GAP starts off by decreasing the terms of stats between the free and premium player.

However, the decision of the developers should also correlate to the decision from the community of ED. This is because the devs must also be entitled to ask for our opinions on certain features in the game. They just don't do something out of spontaneity; they must also garner the support of those who play the platform. If they had less and less support from the platform users, how than can the game evolve if people bicker in dissent and leave the game?

So yes, is in their decision but ours to support or disagree with it. And it's not like we're going to be punished by being so self-outspoken. Because if I were a dev or a business man or anyone along the financial avenue of commerce or trade, I would always feel the need to value the opinion of my customers.

If you owned a restaurant and people complained because the food was too soggy do you just ignore them or give them another dish to eat? This is what is happening right now, angry patrons in a restaurant starving and waiting in line for food. And as patrons of the restaurant, we have the right to argue! The client has the right to voice their opinons about the service, it's not like we're all under red-tape or something.

So again a firm yes, we should not be arguing about this too heavily but it'll help the developers in the long run. Why? Because like a restaurant, if you understand the client's misfortune or grieve and eventually earn to respect of the client by respecting their opinions about the service, then both parties can be sucessful! The patron will enjoy eating the food, returning again and again to the restaurant because they VALUE customer service and the owner of the restaurant will establish credibility of the service. More and more people will come in the restaurant because of this.

I am also a nonvarium user and I feel exactly drawn into your line of thinking. But what we're doing right now is not arguing: merely offering constructive criticism to the devs. And this constructive criticism is what will help ED become more successful in the future.



igfod13 -> RE: The Gap (8/9/2011 21:47:19)

@omegafraust You're looking at it from a non varium standpoint. Many varium players want their money to be well spent and want us to be "free" wins. (i.e. Angels Holocaust)
Of course there are many varium players who want us non variums to be competitive, and of course we want to too, but a lot of people spend quite a bit of money on this game and want it to be well worth the price. After all, they are the people that are paying for this game and the company that owns it.

I'm going to compare this to software products. The company can choose to make the software totally free(Firefox), or limited free features(some antivirus software), or mostly paid, but freely accessable(Microsoft Office if it doesn't come with your computer). Of course people want these products to be free, but the customers don't really decide if it is. As for satisfying the customers, its definitely a must. These companies will do bug fixing and comply with feature suggestions, but the customers don't decide how "free" it is.

But looking around AE games, it seems like ED should lean towards the "free" side. Most AE games are very playable for free players. but paying players do get a nice advantage.
Enhancements are pretty much the issue for the gap right now, and lower cost and adding sellback should be good enough(hopefully).

-okdude

But yeah, I'm actually quite surprised at the civility of this thread.



Joy -> RE: The Gap (8/9/2011 22:39:52)

na i dont think so..



xxomegafaustxx -> RE: The Gap (8/9/2011 22:57:10)

@igfod13

I'm actually quite surprised by the civility in your post. You express your thoughts clearly and quite succinct. Let me add towards your argument:

But first to reach some ample understanding and to clarify my rationale: Yes, I am mores so adopting a nonvarium standpoint because I myself am one but this is similar to what varium users may feel as well. Analogically, both clients want to feel valued by the enterprise that provides the needy service to themselves as consumers. Free customers want to feel as valued as much as the person who has purchased the service because both have benefited from it through past and present experience. The purchaser however will do in personal effort to maximize their advantage and heighten their distinction over a free customers creating a image of "being above the average". They want to feel rewarded because they have paid for something that a free person didn't. This fits in accord with my understanding as of now.

But this separation should not breed any form of hatred or greater difference. This separation should reinforce the the incentive to "maximize enjoyment" rather than in ED, "maximize one's chances to survive" in the platform. Varium is brought for the very wrong reason: It should provide more enjoyment and should not be a forced option to take to continue competing. The experience of enjoyment should not created by the user but created by itself within the PvP interface.

Yes, many varium players want their money to be well spent, that their purchase should "not go in vain", but it should not indicatively manifest into sheer "free wins" against the nonvarium user. The purpose of such a purchase of varium initially was to convey an "advantage" and granted users an incentive to compete better in the ED platform. But as we are seeing now is that the GAP the competitive margin has been soo enlarged that it has almost excluded the nonvarium tier. And the funny thing is varium users know of this but are abusing the privileges of being clients to the ED community. We are socially contracted and because of this, a *community likewise in ED can exist. This does not fit accord with my understanding as of now. *Horse and Man analogy

And of course the customers don't decide how "free it is" rather, it is their continual interest and support that is also equated into the mix along the value and price of the software. We as free customers may not have direct control on the price or marketing of the software but indirectly, we have the ability to influence the decision by the developers who must feel the urge to supply our needs and I greater obligation to provide versatile service.

Because successful antivirus software like AVAST have garnered an increasing amount of users to adopt the program in their computer interface, it has gained them the respect and credibility to be the most trusted antimalware program in the world. OF course we as consumers don't have the capacity to engineer "changes" within the software or fix bugs and so forth. That is up to the provider or the developer of the software. But to resolve your understanding, I believe that the "value of software" is dependent upon "the amount of support" it receives. Without any support, how can the software continue to be successful? And success does not necessarily have to be how much money one gains. It could be how much support it receives which translates into more people adopting the software and increasing the likelyhood to purchase more features as a personal incentive and choice. Of course, not everyone is gonna buy all the features, but if there are way way way more people who like it, chances are there going to by more people buying it.

Because the support derives from the foundation of the software itself; likewise the ED community. You must listen to both sides of the spectrum both varium and nonvarium not just one.

For programs like AntiVirus, one does not necessarily need to unlock a plethora of features and pay it all in order to rival the features obtained from that of a purchaser. That's what made it so enticing for so many people in the world; they don't need to pay for fancy "Norton Security" or "Viper AntiMalware" to rival its premium features. Like AVAST, you don't need to feel obligated to pay because you need to; it is because you want to. Varium should not be a choice to survive; it should be a choice to enjoy the game at a much more greater level. For the average nonvarium user, he needs to survive the platform and is pressure because the competition around him is so great, enlarged and unfair. Even if you purchase varium, you'll still won't find yourself thoroughly satisfied because the circumstances around you have forced you to pay. It should be the client controlling the circumstances that allow oneself to be interested in paying or not paying.

If one downloads AntiVirus, one has the ability to purchase one or many features. The other features are provided as voluntary incentives. OF course for the purchaser who purchases such a software will have some distinct advantage over the free user. But that's up to the free user whether he or she want's to have such features. And such additional features should not convey a LARGE LARGE difference.

And yes, steps by lessening the GAP would be to lower down the stat enhancements. Other than that, I completely agree with you.




Sipping Cider -> RE: The Gap (8/9/2011 23:46:01)

quote:

separation should not breed any form of hatred or greater difference


Very good point. Right now as a Varium player I get put down all the time by non-varium players. Even being called a varium player is a put down in the community right now. I would like for the gap to close just so varium and non-varium players can relate and intermingle with each other more often.






@Shadronica

Sorry if I seem to be mini moding or trolling you, I just do not want a mod or AK to come here and see that the discussion is getting off topic and then lock this thread. Your ideas deserve attention too, just please put ones that do not relate to this thread elsewhere.



Shadronica -> RE: The Gap (8/9/2011 23:57:03)

Sunguardian I would quit while your behind. My post directly related to the gap with different ideas as to how it may be fixed ... but more than that it related directly to the game as a whole so lets not puff up with self importance about different ideas we have that might help the gap.



Sipping Cider -> RE: The Gap (8/10/2011 0:04:44)

Sorry if I am a little slow or have not been around as long as you in the forums. Could you please explain how your idea helps close the gap? I think you are saying that if non-variums have a chance to get armor than it will close the gap, but I thought you were just suggesting that into the thread. As you put it, stirring the pot.

I do not want to turn this into a flame war between me and you (no one actually reads those flame war posts anyways), so I want to clarify that I am not being sarcastic in anyway. I just do not understand your idea as well as you do.



xxomegafaustxx -> RE: The Gap (8/10/2011 0:38:23)

quote:

Right now as a Varium player I get put down all the time by non-varium players. Even being called a varium player is a put down in the community right now. I would like for the gap to close just so varium and non-varium players can relate and intermingle with each other more often.


I also find this quite accurate. The funny thing is it also happens to nonvarium users on the same scale. I was being mocked at when I won a fair victory against a varium TLM user who accused me of cheating and hacking, saying that I somehow cheated and that there was no "way I could beat him". I was also accused of stockpiling health boosters and packs to maintain my wining ratio (I've never used a health pack in a real battle, only NPCing) and was called a NOOB several times after winning and losing them. I don't say anything to provoke them, sometimes its just a "Hi, Gl and GG" kinda thing. But you certainly brought up a great point here.

No one should feel mistreated in this way. Of course, you're gonna get your overconfident and immature adolescent teen crowd who play this game; badmouthing and slandering their opponents just to tick em' off. But if shouldn't happen on this kind of scale but it is because the difference in the GAP, it has created this tense feeling of hatred. The GAP has segregated and more so created two races of users who regard each other as enemies rather than rivals or friends; members of the community. We should as a community, resolve the issue by fixing the gap and create a healthy competitive relationship among the two.

A healthy community stands by the relationship that exist amongst its members. It starts by not one but many members that also feel this way.



igfod13 -> RE: The Gap (8/10/2011 2:19:46)

I totally agree with omegafaust. I have seen the "hate" go both ways. I hate it when some of my non var friends start talking badly about varium players. This "hate", I believe, is coming from the people themselves. It's inconsiderate people who think that they should always get what they want and that they should be the best. The problem lies within the community themselves.

I don't think fixing the gap will solve this problem. There will always be a gap, and no matter how large it is, it is enough to cause this slandering. You're still going to have players that are trying to troll or are venting their anger in ways that may offend others. I know why each of both sides despises the other, and lowering the gap won't really help.



Shadronica -> RE: The Gap (8/10/2011 3:28:35)

I totally agree xxomegafaustxx. It should not be segragated with so much hatred. This culture has evolved more since the game has gone along.

I created a faction of my own in January 2010. It was a home for non varium players even though I was a varium player. I tried to help as much as I could with their builds as well ... kinda like a mom. I wasn't the only person doing good deeds back then. Yes there were the more self indulgent ones back then but the whole atmosphere was so much better. Lots of different players helped other players back then even if they were just strangers that asked for help.

Most of those wonderful, helpful players became disenchanted with ED and have retired for various reasons.

What you are seeing now is not a product of the alpha or beta era.

I am ashamed and annoyed by the attitude that we are currently seeing.

The only difference between varium and non varium players is that varium players pay huge amounts to play and try to keep a competitive edge on their peers.

The PvP system needs an overhaul so that tempers are not constantly tested. I believe that Titan has stated that he will be able to make big changes very soon so I am hoping that things will improve.

Meanwhile, I personally would love to see a change in attitude to the community as a whole but it probably will not happen until things do improve with ED.



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: The Gap (8/10/2011 10:45:41)

First off im going to agree with Shad becuase im am still a guy who runs a newbie friendly faction which today are rare to say the least becuase most Varium leaders either want a Chill faction for them and their buddies or a mega competitive faction which F2P's are hard pressed to get into.

Dont let that fool you im still 100% F2P and if i was Varium in some persons eyes im still pulling for lessening the Gap.

Now onto my real issue ive seen afew shots at enhancments for making the Gap what it is today so im goin gto pull up that same gear i used before in this post(which i just had to correct a number in so its different)
F2P gear total stat value minus Enhancements is 59 Stat modifers
Varium gear stat total value minus Enhancements is 80 Stat modifers

So that means
80-59=21

So variums have 5.25 levels on a F2P from stat value then you add in the two levels from defencive buffs and teh gap dropped from 15.25 levels to 7.25 levels that's a 52.5% decrease in the gap just from removing enhancements from the equation so the statments about Enhancements being a huge factor in the gap are correct becuase they almost double a Variums power over us



tigura -> RE: The Gap (8/10/2011 13:09:50)

IMHO, the gap is a little too big. a good way to solve this is by making more things other than armours and weapons available to those with varium only. For example, make a new NPC who gives an achievement available to varium users only. Or something like that



EDReborned -> RE: The Gap (8/10/2011 14:05:54)

IMO the gap was horrible ever since enhancements came out. The fact is many non-varium players such as myself can't afford 50k just to fully enhance 1 item.



frogbones -> RE: The Gap (8/10/2011 14:43:50)

While I am a firm believer that our environment can influence our behaviors, at the end of the day WE, as individuals, are responsible for our words and actions.

To blame the broken aspects of the game (there are many) for people's behavior is wrong. However, to say that it has nothing to do with it is also untrue.

The fact is, each flamer/troller is 100% responsible for their words. Does this game drive us to our wits' end? Absolutely. We've all been there; it's unavoidable. So while it's understandable why there is so much animosity, it's up to you to decide for yourself how you'll respond to a "bad beat."

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

One thing I'd suggest that each Varium 33 do is to start a new Non-Varium character and level him/her all the way to 32 or 33. I guarantee doing so will give you a new perspective and appreciation for how difficult this game is for NVs.

Maybe that will rid us of some of the arrogance and condescension that currently describes much of ED's Varium population.




Callisto -> RE: The Gap (8/10/2011 16:14:13)

I have been non var player for 6 months and I am full varium now so I can say I've seen both sides.Arrogance does exist,I think the main problem is lack of non varium players.There used to many more,and people were much more respected.Idk exactly when this new rude generation came but I can say right now I only know 4-5 active non varium players above lvl 30.And I'm not surprised...this game isn't so kind to them.

In my honest opinion,I think the gap is in fact too big.Difference between varium and non var player is huge.It's true we pay to have some kind of advantage,but what is the point of having advantage when in the end no f2p players will be left?Game might be f2p but it's pay to win.

One of the main problems are enhancements.While varium players can easily buy them with varium,non variums have to struggle to get enough credits.It shouldn't be this way.Varium should have slight advantage but this game itself should be enjoyable for all players.



xxomegafaustxx -> RE: The Gap (8/10/2011 16:29:16)

The environment can change one's attitude and personal beliefs as correlated by one's opinions regarding a matter or issue. It is because the circumstances evolve with the individual, the individual may be compelled to follow a certain course of action that has externally propagated the conditions to satisfy such an action. Simply, it could be seen as two individuals: one wealthy and one poor. Both have the ability and opportunity to grow as both have the potential to maximize their resources around them as also, both have the potential to be invaluable members in society.

However, the individual has the choice to enact behaviors that may or may not correlate to the environment one is super-imposed in. The wealthy boy may choose not to utilize his advantage; spending it all on entertainment and not maximize the benefits of the money given to him whereas the poor boy may. even though deprived of money, utilizes his resources to achieve the best possible results which in term, engineers him in to a bright future. Even if the situation is frail to one's situation, the individual has the utmost authority to exercise his belief given the scenario. The actions of the individual are what defines one's character, not the environment around him or her.

Also, what remains also as a condescending problem to the ED community is that we don't have a full grip of understanding for each other. Even I as a nonvarium player am victim to this problem because I would have probably argued against decreasing the GAP if I was a varium user. And maybe, this is perhaps true because if I were ever granted such a large advantage, I would hold it as long as possible.

But the truth of the matter is I am also empathetic to varium users who spends imaginable sums of money on this game. And reaching such a conclusion, I have gained an enlightened perspective on the suffering created by over spending. WE must understand the both of the victims to this ordeal: both varium and nonvarium users and the fine balance that exist in the relationship between the Horse and the Man. This is because, together they achieve something far greater than either one alone.




Shadronica -> RE: The Gap (8/10/2011 18:51:00)

I would also like to add to this discussion that we have had some absolutely outstanding and wonderful non varium players in this game and they get my utmost respect. Not once did I ever hear B9000 or New Hope complain about anything. However, since the enhancements have boosted the gap even further I wonder what their thoughts would be now? There have been many wonderful non varium players so I am sorry if I have omitted but spending time with B9000 was most refreshing and New Hope's actions spoke louder than her words.

One can only hope that this game can be healed.




Lord Barrius -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 15:20:46)

Discussions between varium and non-varium users tend to devolve into flaming, so they will not be permitted from this point onwards.

EDIT: Provided this discussion remains completely civil, I'm willing to allow this thread as an experiment in constructive, thoughtful posting.



TurkishIncubus -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 15:28:30)

There is no gap , with a good strategy + some luck non variums can defeat varium players.If gap become less most varium players will stop buying varium , this game is 100 % luck if the gap be like in beta + this luck , sry but i dont see any reason to buy varium.

quote:

Non varium with fully enhanced best varium gear + Luck factor = Average Varium player
this is my equation



Sipping Cider -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 15:31:42)

quote:

Non varium with fully enhanced best varium gear + Luck factor = Average Varium player


I agree, there is not much difference between a varium player going against a non-varium player when the non-varium player has fully enhanced gear. However, since this game is based off of PvP, and that is pretty much the only free way to get credits, it is very difficult for non-varium players to get fully enhanced gear. Any varium player that upgrades gets credits and varium that he/she can use to get enhancements.

Also, luck factor can be on either side of that equation, since it is luck.



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 15:35:13)

turk not many of us F2P's have fully enahnced gear but if we got back to my math work on page four lets find the gap between fully enahcned F2p and full enhanced Vairum

Fully enhanced Varium has 114 stat modifers
Fully enhanced F2P has 85 stat modifers

114-85=29

that is 7.25 levels different then add in the two levels from Defencive buffs you have a 9.25 level lead which is an improvement over the norm but without enhancements at all its a 7.25 level difference so no matter how you slice it Enhancements still give to the Gap



TurkishIncubus -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 15:35:15)

@theSunguardian

you cant remove the luck from equation , what if we balanced the gap ignoring the luck , Nonvariums can do 2 blocks than defeat full varium players that spent hundreds of dolars to this game.

If you ask me the gap should be bigger cause we pay alot of money for a 2D flash game with many problems , on the other hand non variums doesnt spent a single coin :/



Sipping Cider -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 15:38:47)

True, someone who has paid money for this game should get more benefits, but I would rather see those benefits elsewhere besides in the PvP arena. That way, there is more happy non-variums to fight and less hate on both sides.

Other places that variums could get rewards could be in cooler looks, factions, special areas, and exclusive features.



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 15:41:23)

@Sun titan did say some factions would be more meaningful which is something 99.99999% of F2P's dont have im that 0.00001% but besides me Factions and most NPC bosses is a Varium only game so decimating us in PvP isnt exactly needed crushing will be just fine though



Sipping Cider -> RE: The Gap (8/11/2011 15:42:32)

Haha and whats your definition of Crushing vs decimating?



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