RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (Full Version)

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PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/10/2011 14:27:07)

HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

ANYOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONEEEEEEEEEEEE HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMEEEEE

sorry but come on, FIX SUPPORT.

its as bad in 1v1 with support tac mercs now as it is in 2v2. neither mode is even slightly enjoyable when every fight you cannot use
gun or aux cause 99% chance to deflect, cant do any real physical damage cause of hybrid unless your a class with smoke, they crit
aux and artillery at least once per fight. they do 60+ heals every single chance they can and you never deflect them. plus to top it all
off, even if you can beat them down, they have reroute for an extra rage artillery or 5th heal in a stupidly long match you will eventually
lose cause support trumps all other stats and mercs have the best skills to use in a support build.

how many support mages do you see with 70+45 support that don't die b4 second heal is ready ?

im really getting bored of being the FAR superior player, basically beating them 7 or 8 times in a match but because they are support merc
I actually end up losing. i dont wanna hear counter build nonsense. im a good player, i have tons of working builds and even some that
do well against support mercs, but even then, they have all the odds stacked in their favour, and you have to be an experienced pro with
over 10k kills to have any chance against the majority of bad tactical support mercs.

time and again people complain about it, and rather than an actual fix, they actually nerfed strength builds and buffed support builds in that
same balance update, now its almost all support tmercs and isnt fun. im repeating myself but seriously, hasnt the community been repeating
themselves for almost a year ? 2v2 is worse now than before purely because tac mercs are so much better than regular mercs.

if anyone from the staff reads this, please reply. you dont have to comment on what Ive said, but id like to know that someone of note is
reading this topic, and then I'll come back and actually post my balance suggestions [even though I doubt id have a great solution]





Dendavex -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/10/2011 14:31:44)

Most Haters of TLM want TLM TO BE AS USELESS as Tech mage seriously wheres your sense of creativity/honesty
In my most honest opinion all class should be like tlm Cyber hunter should have a Energy lust and Static charge Blood mage should have a new passive along with blood lust





PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/10/2011 14:44:32)

mage is my main, they are awesome, far better than any other class p4p. but they dont have the odds stacked heavily in their favour with support
build that has hybrid, reroute, smoke and artillery. and cyber hunters are perfect as they are. the most versatile fun class of the 3 new ones IMO.
doing malf, static, multi and then massacre is awesome, plus all the other combinations you can pull off with heal, def matrix etc. but again, they
seemed pretty balanced, support is not, and mercs easily benefit the most. you think support mercs would be that awesome if they had the 25 def
you usually see them with [minus hybrid] ? you think they would be that good if artillery stacked with dex instead and multi and plasma rain stacked
with support? seriously, you wanna play the "im a tactical merc, we are balanced and you have an agenda" crap then go ahead. here are links to my
characters, got all the classes covered except a geared regular mercenary.

http://www.epicduel.com/charpage.asp?id=toadborg
http://www.epicduel.com/charpage.asp?id=mechanicus
http://www.epicduel.com/charpage.asp?id=strivance
http://www.epicduel.com/charpage.asp?id=rhinodog
http://www.epicduel.com/charpage.asp?id=blucka%20bloaow

edit: taken over 2 hrs to get 10 wins on my mage in 2v2. not sure how any class that isnt support merc can do 200 wins in a 24hr period.




Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/10/2011 15:06:34)

Silver Sky Magician, whether you like it or not the code is broken and you can do all the calculations in the world the outcome will be different then that of the servers. Just because I report it and no one else does does not report it does not mean it did not happen to other players or other players did not noticed the same things. For all we know the stat abusing could be the one that causing the miscalculations creating further lack of balance and if you have no balance discussions or suggestions then I guess you would have nothing further to post.

Since there is too much junk code to go through to bring balance into the game maybe it is time for Titan and the new Programmer to get a new server start with a clean slate and program the whole thing from scratch.




Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/10/2011 15:15:50)

quote:

mage is my main, they are awesome, far better than any other class p4p. but they dont have the odds stacked heavily in their favour with support
build that has hybrid, reroute, smoke and artillery. and cyber hunters are perfect as they are. the most versatile fun class of the 3 new ones IMO.
doing malf, static, multi and then massacre is awesome, plus all the other combinations you can pull off with heal, def matrix etc. but again, they
seemed pretty balanced, support is not, and mercs easily benefit the most. you think support mercs would be that awesome if they had the 25 def
you usually see them with [minus hybrid] ? you think they would be that good if artillery stacked with dex instead and multi and plasma rain stacked
with support? seriously, you wanna play the "im a tactical merc, we are balanced and you have an agenda" crap then go ahead. here are links to my


Here is my Cyber reply: Our class looks versatile and misleading because of our balance of skills. True enough, you would think we are passable. Our power will derive from support because the majority of our skills require or improve with... support. But don't be fooled, we are restricted from variety as far as that goes. The best bounty hunter weapons (we can use them as well) that associate themselves with a better cyber hunter build have crude requirements. Take the Dark Star for example, physical guns are good for majorly energy type hunters and Dark Star requires 41 strength. Because of the current set we have to balance our skills and meet the requirements... all causing even skill distribution. You would think that is good but, how can we use them effectively with our current skills? Most of the time we will have moderate malfunctions, moderate field medics, and our passive skill? We don't have many points to spend on dexterity to make shadow arts a thumbs up. We will always lack a critical wall, but holding a critical vulnerability. We are a class, the class, that will fail if we are under heavy fire because we don't have the skills that compensate incoming damage. Defense matrix and technician are charity skills, but they are not frank enough to address the ongoing assault from both attributes. One turn to heighten resistance one turn to heighten defense. No turns to attack and put them into defense and add to our rage. Quite distinctly, shadow arts doesn't make the cut.




Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/10/2011 15:17:35)

'Shari told me that Cyber would be getting a new passive...and that there will be a revamp or something sometime.




PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/10/2011 15:23:37)

I hadnt realised how bad it had really become cause i was casually playing a bit each day. now I have a great connection and its awful.
and I have no complaints about the lag. i have actually become one of those players I use to encourage to stick with Epciduel cause they
have made so much progress, but SUPPORT!!! has been left for far too long, no end is in sight, especially considering that the focus seems
to be making sure that strength builds suffer and support build prosper. so now crits do less damage, at least now you cant be 2 turn killed
by 2 opening aux attacks [2v2] or aux+artillery [1v1] but what does it really matter when they can follow through and double artillery etc.

im not really sure what unique arrangement of words I need to actually get my point across. but while support is the MAIN balance issue still
Im gonna keep rearranging my posts over and over day after day. Lord Barrius, please can you tell me what I am allowed to say or do ?

So much gets fixed, so much has changed, ED team has been amazing but why not actually fix support. one stat, its been OP long before
I even knew this game existed, is it really gonna be like this for another year? you had the general idea when you cut the damage but rather
than judging your fix on theory and the minimal testing from your team [minimal compared to 500+ online players] actually go play a few
hundred battles in 2v2 and 1v1. please. I used to see some staff play in 1v1, but was players like wiseman with a str bh etc. not exactly
setting an example or learning anything we couldn't tell you already.

I understand why support mercs and tac mercs in general are so popular. if their was a free item in game and it guaranteed a one hit win,
every fight a vast amount of the players would be using that item even though it would make the game completely pointless. there would
be tac mercs with that weapon playing all day long every day, racking up thousand of kills and boasting, its human nature [sad I know]

Please hear me and do something. I love this game, I love my blog, my builds, my characters, the excitement from the players when updates
are coming. all of that is great. the game on the other hand is playable, but its so frustrating and fixing support would make be monumental.


@GREENRAIN: Ill PM you about cyber hunters




Dendavex -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/10/2011 15:23:55)

@Joe In how long 1 year or what?




Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/10/2011 15:26:56)

Dunno...next couple of months? Which means maybe that long +1-2 months. But it's coming...




Wiseman -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/10/2011 16:03:10)

@psibertus: Support has once again become a problem, and in all honesty it should be nerfed. However before we start nerfing it we need to test the effects that would have on all classes, because something might make one class weaker but make another class stronger. For instance Bounties don't really need support to win, so moving a luck factor to a different stat could make that class stronger. Like I said though it's something we are working on, support is a problem and we do plan to do something about it as soon as possible.

Thanks for your concern.




One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/10/2011 16:04:48)

@Dendavex I would prefer to weaken TLM without crippling it, no repeat of HLTM fix it was bad for everyone.

Now the only reason people hate on TLM, even myself, is becuase of the way the skill tree is set up becuase in no other class can the OP'ed Build of its day be made by linked skills but in TLM its OP'ed build comes from the fact that Reroute and Frenzy are more or less linked, they both root to Technician so that is pretty much linked to me.




Illuminator -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/10/2011 17:06:15)

About Artillery Strike:
With straight numbers Artillery Strike, Plasma Rain, and MultiShot are all completely equal. 60 support gives the same damage for AS as 60 dex gives for MS and 60 tech gives for PR. None of them ignore any defense or resistance. AS does seem better though simply because it is more convenient. Support is an all around more useful stat than any of the others. Like Wiseman said, it should be weakened.

Also the fact that smokescreen is required to even use AS makes it much easier to boost AS damage. Unlike on TM where Malfunction and PR are on complete opposite sides of the tree. Not to mention that support mercs tend to go a bit heavier on the tech for resistance making smokescreen even stronger. The convenience of the TLM skill tree is just too high. And yes we are working on fixing that.


As for why we don't just nerf support now. Like Wiseman said we don't know for sure how it will effect all of the classes as a whole. In the past a sledgehammer was used to balance and that didn't go very well, it just killed the OPed class and often hurt other non problem builds (ex: Agility and 4 turn medic cooldown). We want to simply bring the OP down to normal not make it the weakest, the only way to do that is to slowly make small changes until it is balanced.

Yes there are ideas that work great on paper but often it doesn't work that way when actually implemented. That is why for the past month or so small balance changes have been implemented. Alone they don't do a lot, but it wasn't possible to know if they would cause some catastrophic power shift that wasn't predicted. Small changes over time are the best way to find the magical point at which everything is pretty much balanced.

Yes that means that in the interim things will be unbalanced and unfair, but in the long term it will be much more beneficial than just nerfing OPed stuff as soon as it comes up.




One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/10/2011 17:27:06)

On the support note i think the idea going around of making Heal a static number that will scale just like a handful of other skills it would reduce teh effectiveness of Support based builds because as we all can point out if you do high damage to a Support merc they heal it all away with lv 1 heal which gives like 70 HP




PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/10/2011 17:44:18)

@Wiseman and Illuminator: ty so much for taking the time to answer. you guys know its an issue and your gonna work out the
best solution. im content. Ill soldier on now happy in the knowledge that more fixes will be made to balance the classes and stats.

take your time ED Team ;) you just let the community know your aware of the major issues, something we were never sure about
in times past :) sorry if i blew a top too.




Algorithm -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/10/2011 17:49:43)

Mages rock.
Even before the slight buff.




PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/10/2011 18:40:31)

@OWA : great idea, field medic only improving if u put skill points into it




One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/10/2011 19:00:29)

It wasnt my idea i stole it from Celest or WM or both afew pages back.


Also if you make Medic static it will be just like Beta when no one really used Support becuase there were only Five auxs which were rarely used so if you wanted to heal you had high Field Medic which made you a target. Those were the days.




Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/10/2011 19:01:06)

If the Blood Mage has 60 tech then they have very little defense without energy return Plasma rain on max would basically kill our energy but look at the three multiple attacks where they start at:

This is from ed wiki

Artillery Strike
Improves With: Support (+1 damage at 22 Support; +1 damage per 4 Support after)

Multi-Shot
Improves With: Dexterity (+1 damage per 5 Dexterity)

Plasma Rain
Improves With: Technology (+1 damage at 28 Technology; +1 damage per 5 Technology after)

to make it fair then it should go like this

Artillery Strike
Improves With: Support (+1 damage at 28 Support; +1 damage per 4 Support after)

Multi-Shot
Improves With: Dexterity (+1 damage at 28 Dexterity; +1 damage per 4 Dexterity after)

Plasma Rain
Improves With: Technology (+1 damage at 28 Technology; +1 damage per 4 Technology after)

The next difference is that the Hybrid Armor gives them +13 on resistance they wear energy armor +9 then +1 so that is +23 extra points on resistance so they could be at 20 base resistance and still have 43 total resistance. The Blood Mage and Cyber hunter has nothing that don't take up energy to boost the defense I have seen a bounty with max reflex boost on still get demolished by the Artillery strike.

The Stats for support needs to be spanned further apart because ED staff made abusing support too easy. If you keep Intimidation with Blood Mage then make it where it debuffs strength and support and increases the damage. It is quite clear diminishing returns were done away with, thanks for not letting us know that.




Wraith -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/10/2011 19:15:22)

^Lawl...

You forgot about DEX BH. Stun Nade and M-Shot will get so OP...

Build possibilities.

On second thought, scrap anything negative I said.

TITAN HUN KING IS YOUR ULTIMATE BALANCER!




Illuminator -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/10/2011 19:18:17)

@Hun Kingq: It seems that the wiki has not been updated since a recent balance change. Not sure why, it's usually kept very up to date.
If you read these Design Notes, about halfway through where it says "Other balance changes" it says:
quote:

  • Multi-Shot increases damage per 4 Dexterity (down from per 5 Dex)
  • Plasma Rain increases damage per 4 Technology (down from per 5 Tech)


All of the multi skills should be scaling in the exact same way, so with equal dex, tech, and support they should all do the same exact damage.




Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/10/2011 19:33:47)

@Wiseman

Ever thought of making a new Stat?
example would be like remove Deflect chance and Rage from Support
and put it on that New stat?




Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/10/2011 19:34:12)

Lord Sinastr, I included all three multi strikes

Illuminator, but do they all start at the same base stat if not they all need to start high as Plasma Rain or Start low as Artillery strike to make them truly equal, do you see what I am getting at? One basically starts at 0 Dex, another starts at 22, then the third starts at 28 and with the added resistance the merc class can have it basically makes multi shot weak and Plasma Rain even weaker and because the Blood Mage has nothing to increase damage we don't get the added benefit of increase damage as the Tact mercs do.




edwardvulture -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/10/2011 20:33:13)

How come there is like no mod or staff feedback for drastically cutting down the number of enhancements available in all future weapons?




drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/10/2011 20:38:28)

Alright, since the Multis are equally powerful...

*chuckles*

Why don't we give Artillery to BloodMages and Plasma Rain to Tactical Mercenaries?

And we can buff it too!

Plasma Rain can be used with a club.




PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/10/2011 22:41:46)

@Edward: Ill go find the source, but they have a specific standard for enhancements now.




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