RE: Blood lust needs a buff? (Full Version)

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Stabilis -> RE: Blood lust needs a buff? (9/11/2011 15:27:49)

@Silver Sky Magician,

What the heck?? Cyber hunters are great with static charge we don't need to replace it -,-



Hun Kingq -> RE: Blood lust needs a buff? (9/11/2011 15:35:10)

Silver Sky Magician, which class is most likely to get blocked the Cyber Hunter or the Blood Mage? Which is likely to get more damage? You can talk about base damage all you want but hen it comes to actual strikes which will you get more damage from and less likely to be blocked.

Why there is not many Blood Mages reporting the same problems or the variant of damage look at how many players you see playing a Blood Mage, not many is there. You say Berzerker has no stat requirements an last time I did level 1 Berzerker I used up all my energy and guess what, it can be blocked where as massacre can't be blocked, Berzerker does only three strikes how many does massacre does so how can you compare two skills which shows true lack of fairness between the two, they nerfed berzerker because of the mercs and recently they buffed massacre to what I read in the other forums.

You keep telling me to provide screenshots as proof so it is quite clear you are the only one that wants to see them.

Now your comparing a new mage class (Blood Mage) to mercs and bounty hunters, you know they are totally different classes and should have total different skills and because the Blood Mage is a new class only comparison we should be making is to the Cyber Hunters and the Tact Mercs. Look at the skills Cyber Hunters and the Tact Mercs have that can take life over time, take 30 plus energy, debuff with increased damage, better energy regain, and their multiple strikes do improve with the stat they are to improve with. A tact merc as my partner in a 2vs2 battle gave me level 4 technician instead of attacking to help boost the Plasma Rain and on the Tact merc across from me had low resistance but the only damage I got on him was only 35 where as my defense is at 24-29 +9+1 he got over 50 damage with Artillery strike.

Show me in this quote, "Description: Blood Mage is the more aggressive and violent version of the Tech Mage." it says that the Blood Mage is Hunters or mercs.

Intimidation is a very useless skill I was intimidated with a level 3 Intimidation because the player thought that would lower my sidearm damage but I got 35 damage on them with the sidearm, it is useless because it only affects strength for one two it does not increase the damage you inflict.

So with you constantly coming after me why I have no idea but as you can see I can counter anything and everything that you put out there.

With two classes able to drain 30 plus energy the two mage classes should be able to drain the same percentage and all three should be blockable because in real life battle you either duck or pick up something to block it from hitting you instead of just standing there.

This will get your goat going:

Intimdation, Reflex boost, and berzerker will be replaced with better skills

Another new skill to replace the linked skills can be the
three strikes of Berzerker combined with the Bludgeon as the final strike
it can be called Taz, the punisher, or the quad strike. With these skills
for the Blood Mage it will break one link from the three classes.

HELO (Health Energy Life Overseer)
If blocked by opponent no health return
If you block opponent no energy return
Energy Required: 0 (passive)
Conversion:
Level 1: 12%
Level 2: 15%
Level 3: 18%
Level 4: 21%
Level 5: 23%
Level 6: 25%
Level 7: 27%
Level 8: 28%
Level 9: 29%
Level 10: 30%

Weapon Required: None
Stat Required: None
Level Required: 5
Improves With: None
Warm Up: None
Cool Down: 0

Return Assimilation back to the Blood Mage but with HELO selected you don't regain energy but it needs to cool down of 2 and take away as much energy as emp since it can still be blocked but when HELO is not selected then with Assimilation you get back either
multiple time the amount of energy or a percentage say 70% or lower.

Evolved Assimilation (no energy return if HELO is selected just energy drain)
HELO (evolved reroute/Blood Lust)

To added since the mage class can't have triple strike super charge as it should be then they should make it reduce the rage meter




PivotalDisorder -> RE: Blood lust needs a buff? (9/11/2011 15:47:53)

just block the guy above. he is completely clueless and just makes stuff up



Rayman -> RE: Blood lust needs a buff? (9/11/2011 15:48:56)

Why cant we make static 70% hit chance



od -> RE: Blood lust needs a buff? (9/11/2011 16:20:12)

The main problem with blood mages is that they are the only class that cannot drain or regain energy ( reflex boost does give a 15% conversion for 4 turns, however the vast majority of times it costs more to cast then you regain).

Why is that? Because blood mages are the only class that has 2 skills that deal out raw damage ( plasma cannon and fireball). Tec mages have plasma bolt ; bounty and cyber hunters have venom strike ; tac merc has toxic grenade and regular merc has bunker buster.

To solve this, We need to remove one of them in order to open up a space for an energy drainer, or modify it so that it can be, for example an AoE skill ( this will prevent blood mages from only having 1 new skill)



ansh0 -> RE: Blood lust needs a buff? (9/11/2011 16:27:27)

I agree with od as BM is the vulnerable class without an energy drainer skill,IMO intimidate should be replaced with atom smasher minus the weapon requirement in order for the BM to be a.....umm........successful class.






~black spidey



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: Blood lust needs a buff? (9/11/2011 16:28:09)

od define raw damage becuase alot of classes have unblockables which is raw damage in my mind



Calogero -> RE: Blood lust needs a buff? (9/11/2011 16:37:38)

problem with Reflex Boost really is that the specials cancel eachother out...

It boosts DEX meaning Block gets buffed but in order to get Energy back, you need to be hit.



od -> RE: Blood lust needs a buff? (9/11/2011 17:14:36)

@OWA
What i mean by a raw damage skill is, well a skill that deals straight out damage, and nothing but straight out damage. For example, overload is a raw damage skill but also has a 30% chance to stun so it goes under stunning skill. Same for artillery strike: it strikes 2 players, so it goes under AoE skill. The problem with blood mages is that because they have 2 skills that basically have the same function (stat improver aside) it makes an overlap which forces them to miss a skill.

Thats also why regular mecrenaries are the only class without 2 passives (counting static charge as a passive): they have 2 skills (double strike and bezerk) with the same function (to deal an enhanced attack), while all the other classes have only 1 (bounty/cyber hunters have cheapshot, tec mages have bludegon, blood mages have bezerk, tac mercs have double strike)



PivotalDisorder -> RE: Blood lust needs a buff? (9/11/2011 17:21:10)

I dont think most of those skills you list are direct equivalents. they have different warmup times, cooldown times etc, and massively different energy costs



od -> RE: Blood lust needs a buff? (9/11/2011 17:27:11)

^ that's true, but they still have the same function, kind of like how human and monkeys are different but they are both mammals



Wraith -> RE: Blood lust needs a buff? (9/11/2011 17:33:49)

Od you forgot Plasma Bolt...




od -> RE: Blood lust needs a buff? (9/11/2011 17:50:02)

@ lord sinastr
quote:

Tec mages have plasma bolt

Im not sure what exactly your point is about plasma bolt, could you clarify?



frosty123 -> RE: Blood lust needs a buff? (9/11/2011 18:05:55)

^i think thats their deal out damage thingie.

Give thema skill that gives 30% of the damage you do to your enenrgy.



Wraith -> RE: Blood lust needs a buff? (9/11/2011 18:28:46)

Uhh Plasma Bolt is "raw damage"

Bunker Buster?



od -> RE: Blood lust needs a buff? (9/11/2011 18:46:08)

@ lord sinastr
My point isnt that blood mages are the only class with a raw damage but that they are the only class with 2 raw damage skills ( all the other classes only have 1)



nico0las -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/11/2011 19:50:48)

I've seen some nice Ideas here, so I'll just summarize my favorites here:

1: enhancement price drop
1 enhancement: 5000
2 enhancements: 10 000
3 enhancements: 15 000
all the way to 10, at 50 000 credits,
varium:
1: 100
2:200
:3: 300
all the way to 10 and 1000 varium

Debuff Hybrid armor to 10 defense at maximum.
Either leave Reroute at 30% and buff bloodlust to 27 again, or nerf reroute to 25 at maximum.

BAG SLOTS FOR CREDITS. This I have been waiting for for AGES. I fail to understand why it has not been implemented yet.

Rebuff massacre. It's ridiculous how useless it is now.

Malfunction should not affect smokescreen. It's impossibly frustrating facing a mage and having your smokescreen debuffed to around 20.

make static charge passive. Cyber hunter needs a buff, and this seems to be just what they need.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/12/2011 0:08:34)

@nico0las 1. If massacre becomes useful at level 1 again then both Surgical Strike and Supercharge need a serious buff. Before it was nerfed, Massacre could easily give you an extra 30 damage to the already 25-35 damage at level 1. To get that much damage with the other skills you would need to pretty well max them out in points or fight a low level who decided to pour everything into strength to beat up lower levels. An ultimate skill or any skill for that matter should not be the trump card of your build if it's only lvl 1.
2. Without malf then mages stand little chance against Str Hunters. Every class has an advantage over just about any build by any class if you have the right skills. But with a str hunter, mages only could lower Smokescreen. If a merc used intimidate then it affected every attack from a Str Hunter unless they used a bot or aux. But Malf only lowered Smokescreen by 10 points near the top. It is 4 tech for 1 point of Smoke I assume. Those 10 dex the mage didn't lose would only be worth 3 defense. Hunters aren't losing out on much with malf lowering tech. The only other skill that Hunters use for tech is EMP Grenade.



edwardvulture -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/12/2011 0:19:59)

A lot of people might not understand this. But Initimidate is needed in the BL class, it is one of their few ways to lower an opponents damage.



Luna_moonraider -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/12/2011 3:21:03)

@nico0las

quote:

BAG SLOTS FOR CREDITS. This I have been waiting for for AGES. I fail to understand why it has not been implemented yet.


not possible because quote from wiseman

quote:

Sorry but they cannot make bag space free/credits, simply because each slot takes up bandwidth so they need it to be varium to help pay for the extra strain on the servers (that's the same reason why getting bank/bag slots on the other AE games cost money as well).


quote:

1: enhancement price drop
1 enhancement: 5000
2 enhancements: 10 000
3 enhancements: 15 000
all the way to 10, at 50 000 credits,
varium:
1: 100
2:200
:3: 300
all the way to 10 and 1000 varium


yes the varium prices should drop but i dun see y the credit prices should as credit players did not pay anything y should they get a price reduction. varium= advantage.



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/12/2011 8:11:12)

@greenrain and psibertus

I just realised that too; BTW I'm not a cyber hunter. My rationale is that replacing Static Charge would make cyber hunters overly similar to tech mages and would in fact cause an overall decrease in the strategy needed for the class. *shrugs* it seemed like a good idea at the time, since I was thinking of a more useful passive for the class and concluded that hybrid armour or bloodlust with Static Charge would be too formidable, so I agreed with Reroute or a variant of it replacing Static Charge. I didn't agree with that any longer though, starting from 2mins after I posted that comment and shut the computer down :P

@Hun Kingq
Hun Kingq, don't be silly. What on earth are you going to compare Blood Mages to? Just tech mages, while conveniently ignoring the fact that four other classes exist, some of which face the exact same problems as you? Balance isn't in context of two classes, but six. And don't be ridiculous; given the same dexterity, Blood Mages would hit at the same rate as all other classes; Reflex Boost would negate Smokescreen, and the only reason why Blood Mages would hit less often is because of Shadow Arts; that problem exists for all classes.

Don't bother giving me some random fallacious inductive statement about your own experiences, because those are far-fetched and ludicrous. And I'm telling you to just make a bug report and stop confusing those issues with balance. Do you know why I'm calling for screenshot evidence? Because your claims sounds far too much like really, really bad fabrications and exaggerations.

And obviously Intimidate lowers damage; what on earth do you think strength is for? You hit 35 - so? Would you have only hit 35 without that Intimidate? As for Berserker 'having stat requirements'; since when was energy a stat requirement? And of course Massacre is unblockable; it is an ultimate skill, whereas Berserker is just a third-tier skill. Naturally it is weaker than Massacre; its damage at level 1, however, is extremely similar.

You claim that you can 'rebut' anything I throw at you. Utter nonsense. Do you call your irrational statements 'rebuttals'? You have no evidence at all to back up any of your claims. Your suggestions are completely unfeasible and you demonstrate a shocking lack of knowledge of not only other EpicDuel classes, but your own. I cannot believe that your posts are typical of a 'well-educated adult skilled in programming', as you claim; quite bluntly, their level falls far below even that of a child's.

I'm bothering to reply to you to let you become aware that if you continue living in pretentious ignorance, you are only wasting others' time and making this thread a joke. Get your facts right, fix that pseudo-logic, and then come back here.


Regarding balance: Seriously, I always thought that there were only two things hindering the balance of EpicDuel. The varium-non varium gap, and robots; the latter is a subset of the former. There are other problems, of course, like the power of support, but I consider that manageable; support builds have been and can be countered by a multitude of other builds.

There has now arisen a third thing: the tactical mercenary. I personally don't see much problem with any other class (other than blood mages lacking assimilation). There are three major passive skills: Bloodlust, Reroute and Hybrid Armour. There are two minor passive skills: Deadly Aim and Shadow Arts. Any combination of the minor and major passive skills are relatively fine, as long as they don't exceed the number of one each. More than one major passive skill in a skill tree, however, can only result in havoc; the result is the tactical merc.

I personally believe that this is the greatest problem with the tactical merc; either reroute or hybrid armour must thus be removed. Another major problem revolves around the sheer versatility of Smokescreen; it can be used to a most formidable effect in both the builds utilising either one of the offensive stats; Strength or Support. Strength TLMs have Smokescreen, Maul, Double Strike and Frenzy. Support TLMs have Smokescreen, Artillery Strike, their auxillaries -and for defensive purposes, their Field Medic.

Clearly, then, Smokescreen has unprecedented synergy with the tactical merc skill tree. And while I hesitate in going so far as to suggest that it should be replaced, that synergy should be reduced.

Tank TLMs would be significantly -though not completely- nerfed with the removal of one of their major passives. Thus the two proposed solutions would essentially greatly affect these three common TLM builds. Nerf them -perhaps too much? I thus seek feedback on this matter.



Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/12/2011 8:16:21)

quote:

Intimdation, Reflex boost, and berzerker will be replaced with better skills


Read this very closely ok... BloodMage is NOT Underpowered, It needs some tweeking and that's it.
Remove Intimidate for Reflex Boost and put Assimilate Back at Tier 4 and that's it...
that's all that needs to be done.

No TaZ, no HELO, no Evolved Assimilate
We are trying to BALANCE the class, not Overpower it.



Luna_moonraider -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/12/2011 10:00:31)

@Silver Sky Magician
quote:

I personally believe that this is the greatest problem with the tactical merc; either reroute or hybrid armor must thus be removed.


why remove when u can shift them both to tier 4. Tier 4= harder to abuse. it also means tlc merc are restricted if they want to use both passive.

also technician need to be changed as most tank make use of techni to buff up their smoke and bot.

Back to topic:

also blood mages skill tree needs to be rewired too.

1)intimidate should be removed and replaced with something useful like asim

2)super crap ops i mean super charge should either be buffed or changed to surgical strike or something better

3) the blood mage skill tree should be changed to this:

Tier 1: field medic,firebolt, technician
Tier 2:plasma cannon, bloodlust, plasma rain
Tier 3: zerk, overload, deadly aim
Tier 4:Reflex Boost, assimilate, sc(buffed)/ss/ something which helps blood mage



od -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/12/2011 10:21:49)

@Luna moonfang
As many others have said, bloodmages need intimidate, and its a very good skill especially against npcs. What we need removed is plasma cannon; we already have one pure raw damage skill ( fireball) and plasma rain costs less energy and improves every 4 instead of the 5 that PC oinproves by



PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/12/2011 12:10:02)

@OD: I love plasma cannon on blood mage, its one of the alternate builds, like bunker buster for mercs and far better than Fireball unless of course your using a strength build.

Hybrid Armour
for me the skill that makes no sense is Hybrid armour. your basically being allowed to use your skill points as free stat points which is a benefit no other class can get.
when was the last time you saw a decent merc without max hybrid armour ? thats 10 guaranteed points spent in every single merc/tac build which in some ways is
stifling creativity.

when it was just the 3 original classes, it didn't seem to bad, cause mercs didn't have a def/res debuff like mages and hunters but now tactical mercs have smoke.
I accept that mages and hunters have more uses for dex than mercs skill wise, but if your not using dex skills like overload, supercharge and multi then you basically
have as much use for dex as mercs do. It just seems unfair that everyone else has to invest in dex but mercs can just use skill points to compensate and stack all
those extra points onto whatever they want. so not only do they have equal defences, but they can either have greater offence or even greater defence too.

wiseman and Ashari [I think] both said they agree support is a major issue and is in big need of a proper fix, not a band aid fix like agility was for the heal loop era.
now most mercs are sitting behind their hybrid armour, with 21-25 base defence and then stacking the points onto support so that even non variums are able to stack
their support as high as 75+30. varium mercs are even crazier, with almost 150 support in the extreme builds. if any other class stacked a stat that high they would
be incredibly vulnerable. without hybrid armour, do you think 21-26 defence would really cut it ? I don't. 21-26 +13 is 34-39 and that would require 116 dex [32-39].
mercs usually have 45-60 dex, so 10 skill points is being used to cover at least 50 stat points. I would love 50 extra stat points on my characters and 34-39 defence.

does no one else see a massive imbalance here? [I know many do, I'm really addressing mercs with this question]

I can't see the ED Team being brave enough to remove hybrid and create some new skills to compensate, like a new debuff or physical defence shield so what about
just making it so you have to activate hybrid first. it would still apply for the entire fight, just you would have to use a turn like everyone else does.

Super Skills
if all 6 classes are going to have a super skill, then they need to tweaked for equal viability. I know how each skill is on paper but in actual fights you really get to see
how effective they are. I see far more damage out of supercharge than I do out of surgical strike. I saw one 40+ surgical strike, but usually its 22-26. supercharge on
the other hand is usually doing 35+. now I'm not sure how many points were invested in supercharge to make it like that, but it does seem like it doesn't need a major
buff, maybe just tweaking with surgical strike so that more players are encouraged to use it, without it being overpowered like massacre used to be.




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