RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (Full Version)

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frosty123 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/12/2011 14:39:45)

Once again try not to nerf because if you nerf Hybred them mercs will have the same effect. replace Hybred Armor with the a new skill that adds % of damage to energy.

So the oringal atk is 100% but the new skill changes it to 90% and the 10% takes 10% of the energy. It would nerf reroute alot ONLY for Tlm and they wont seem so overpowering.

You can also make it like BLD Shield but you do not need a turn to activate it. just make it take 5 energy per turn



PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/12/2011 14:49:17)

Frosty, their is no such thing as a nerf really, only balance adjustments.

if something is so imbalanced then why shouldn't it be changed, removed or some other solution applied ?
if you look at the epicduelwiki class section, many skills were removed because they didn't work out like a support debuff.



edwardvulture -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/12/2011 17:12:55)

@psibertus, your leaving out the part that hybrid armor isn't very useful if you keep getting attacked on the res side and are vulnerable to builds where both physical and energy attacks are abundant every turn.
Hybrid itself isn't that Oped, but they add reroute to it, so now it is.



PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/12/2011 17:24:57)

@Edward: ok, lets say its a 1v1 duel between 2 mercs who have identical stats, one has hybrid armour and the other doesn't. who is likely to take more damage?

the player who has hybrid armour is able to put 50+ stat points into something else, while the player without has 10 free skill points to use. in a fight I would put
my money on the guy with hybrid armour everytime. if it ISN'T true then why does every single decent merc have hybrid armour maxed ?



od -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/12/2011 18:52:00)

Concerning ultimate skills all are fairly even right now except for supercharge on bloodmage since it doesn't stack with bludlust turning the 30% life steal into more of a 7 %. It should stack to make it on par with techmage supercharge.



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/12/2011 19:08:57)

Silver Sky Magician, You were the one comparing the Blood Mage to just the Bounty Hunters and mercs no other and if you did not know a new class, not an old class, the Blood mage skills should only be compared to the other new classes. Actually balance is in the context of each individual class compared to one another between defense, resistance and power but you can’t see that can you. “Reflex Boost would negate Smokescreen” only on strikes not on weapons, I have seen a bounty with max reflex boost on in 2vs2 get hit with a support abusing Artillery strike and get destroyed. I don’t exaggerate damage or lack of damage but either is part of putting balance in the game whether it is a bug or not, which I found three bugs and put it on the bug forum why don’t you look it up. You surely don’t know the skills too well because you wrote , “Berserker don’t have a stat requirement.” And you stated that it does not use that much energy, To make this response, “You say Berzerker has no stat requirements an last time I did level 1 Berzerker I used up all my energy,” much clear to you since you did not understand: You say Berzerker has no stat requirements, well it does and last time I did level 1 Berzerker I used up all my energy so it does have a high energy requirement as well. You say Berzerker and massacre is similar let us compare, one can be blocked, one can’t, one only has three strikes, one has too many to count, wait the only similarity is high energy requirement just one thing makes them similar, and you call them being similar because of one thing. This is what would make them similar, both unblockable, both have the same amount of strikes, both have the same amount of damage at all levels, both have high energy requirement, and both have the same stat requirement, all of that would make them similar not just one thing. Yes, I can hit 35 without Intimidation and one time I was Intimidated and hit 45. Intimidation is a useless skill why because there is less players abusing support, dex or tech, can you actually grasp that.

Just here I made massive rebuttals to you statements and truly showed that you are ignorant about the skills, the classes and the fact that no matter how you calculate something on paper the program will come up with different results.

andy123
Assimilation needs to be improved in the amount of energy it takes to balance it out with EMP and Atom Smasher sine the Tact mercs have reroute now because just ten points with the damage it inflicts you are just wasting a turn. Taz or whatever they want to call it will get rid of one of many link skills, so that they could nerf it or buff it without affecting any other class like what happened to bezerker. So what is wrong with the HELO idea it is combining two skills into one and giving a better rate of return, and with and evolved Assimilation many Blood Mages will not have HELO on max because they know that getting the opponents energy down is more important and if both have points on it then all what Assimilation does is take away energy. Last, don’t you get tide of having to waste two turns boosting DEX and tech how about make a new shield that does that in one turn and with that improved shield then less damage so what happens with less damage less energy return. Unless you can actually implement and prove my ideas will make the Blood mage Over Powered then you can’t make false assumptions.

So you and others that do not do programming for ED thinks my ideas will make the Blood Mage over powered which you and others are making assumptions without seeing them implemented and seeing the results but if you take a look none of my ideas will increase the power of the sidearm, the Aux, and only thing that will increase if we had the new shield would be skills that improves with DEX and Tech but at the same rate as reflex boost and Technician and if it improves too much then Titan could go in and adjust it without affecting any other class.

I have used max Intimidation on different high level NPCs as George Lowe, Charfade, Nightwraith, Big Tuna, and the new bosses, they got the same damage or more on strikes and side arms, and on top of that they used other attacks, that does not use the strength stat and it does not increase damage. That is why I say it is a useless skill and I don’t know why the merc class put up with it so long and demanded a better debuffing skill.

With so many things the Blood Mage is lacking the road to balance is a very long journey and we have to let the programmers take everyone’s ideas into consideration an let them decide which to use to go around attacking one player or their ideas shows that you are truly closed minded and maybe that one players ideas will bring the needed balance into the game without nerfing or buffing another class and if you think a player should just take insults and not fight back think again, no player should back down.

For balance to happen it has to happen between Power, Defense, and Resistance in this game.



drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/13/2011 5:54:01)

I believe BM's have another problem: the lack of Shields.

By Shields I mean E. Shield and Defense matrix.

To play defensively, they have to have about 5 points in both Reflex Boost and Technician. So why not remove Techician, and enter Energy Shield?



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/13/2011 6:02:51)

@Hun Kingq

I didn't say Berserker doesn't use much energy, I said that it doesn't use as much energy. There is a difference, if you were not aware. FYI energy cost is not considered a stat requirement; something like Massacre's support requirement is.

And number of hits doesn't matter at all. Massacre has greater minimum damage because it is an ultimate skill; its minimum damage is the same or lower than that of Surgical Strike and Super Charge. Nothing to do with amount of hits at all.

They are similar, especially at level 1 since most users only use level 1 Massacre or Berserker. Similar energy cost, similar damage. The main thing that differentiates them is blockability. And just because of that one thing, you tell me they are completely different.

Balance is of course in terms of other classes; when you say a class is 'overpowered' or 'underpowered', it is in terms of their capabilities in relation to other classes. Balance doesn't mean a class has incredible offense, defense and other characteristics. For your information, in context of EpicDuel that would be imbalance. And of course Balance is in terms of all 6 classes; if the 3 new classes were balanced among themselves but way more powerful than the original 3, would that be balance? Nonsense.

'Reflex Boost would negate Smokescreen' was in context of why Blood Mages wouldn't get blocked more; quit twisting my words out of context. And so what if that bounty hunter got destroyed? I've seen lots get destroyed; because their defense after their 'Max Reflex Boost' was lower than my base defense; their dexterity and support were horrible. And Artillery Strike doing so much damage is normal; a typical support merc would have an Artillery Strike capable of doing 60+ damage, which would easily do ~30+ to typical Max Reflex Boosters.

Evidently when you hit 45 with Intimidate it was because the opponent had really, really bad defenses. That doesn't prove anything. And can you actually think rationally before you type? 'There are less players abusing dexterity, technology or support' - shouldn't that make Intimidate more useful, not useless? And do you see what I mean by exaggeration? It is completely impossible -improbable at best- that NPCs do not have less damage on their strikes before and after your Max Intimidate. Unless the damage happened to be 3, of course.

And I don't know whether to laugh with sheer amusement or cry in exasperation at your claim that you have made 'massive rebuttals' and that 'I am ignorant'. Is your definition of 'massive' 'a huge chunk of words which is essentially nonsense'? Your entire notion of skills, classes and balance is unbelievably inaccurate. And for your information, mathematical calculations are as accurate on paper as in the program, assuming that your calculations are accurate. Builds are the ones which don't necessarily work on paper as compared to actual utilisation in-game.

And finally, the 'bugs' that you reported had absolutely nothing to do with the damage bugs that you have been consistently rambling on about.

@drinde

That can both be a disadvantage and an advantage to Blood Mages. The disadvantage is of course the need to invest more skill points and the comparatively less defense/resistance gained. The advantage is that increasing Dexterity increasing blocking and the damage of skills like Overload and Super Charge, as well as Technician's effectiveness. Increasing technology increases the power of robots and skills like Plasma Cannon.

Note that Technician increases with Dexterity rather than Support as well - in general, the strength builds that the blood mage was designed for has much more dexterity than support.

It is a double-edged sword, essentially.

@od

Would that make the skill a little overpowered? 53% recovery is beyond formidable...yet it is logical for the skills to stack. I'm on the fence for this one.

@Luna moonfang

High-levelled players can still utilise reroute and hybrid armour to a great extent; putting them in Tier 4 would only significantly affect low to mid-levelled players.



drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/13/2011 6:26:41)

On another note: STR.

Frenzy's effectiveness I would attribute to High Regain and Low Cost.

Maybe the highest % should be 45% Regain, and the cost 14 EP, going up at 2 per LV up.



Luna_moonraider -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/13/2011 7:56:51)

quote:

@Luna moonfang

High-leveled players can still utilize reroute and hybrid armor to a great extent; putting them in Tier 4 would only significantly affect low to mid-leveled players.


true but they will be forced to put skill that then do not need every skill point is important in many build.

example of a tier 4 passive is deadly aim. before the update sword mages had to waste 2 point to just get deadly aim and they cant use overload and plasma rain. the dev could link hybrid or reroute to maul,frenzy,atom smash making it hard to use a sword build as sword gives more stat.

a skill tree which would make it harder to abuse hybrid would make tlc merc think. here is the so called tier 4 passive skill tree:

Tier 1: heal,double strike, blood shield
Tier 2:maul,poison grenade,frenzy
Tier 3:atom smash,smoke,artillery strike
Tier 4: hybrid armor, reroute, surgical

Links: heal-maul-atom-hybrid, double-pg-smoke,bs-frenzy-arty,arty- ss, smoke- reroute

note: putting hybrid at tier 4 would make peopl wast 2 extra points and making reroute at tier 4 will make them waste an extra 1 point. in total the will have to was 3 more point in order to have hybrid and reroute at the same time. 3 points is a lot. 32-3=29 u will just have 29 points left. if u wanna max hybrid and reroute.29-20=9. 9 point left u cant do much with 9 points. basically support abusing build cant have max hybrid,max reroute and max arty. str build cant have max hybrid,max reroute,decent frenzy/maul/ds, and lvl 7 smoke. shifting the passive will nerf tlc merc significantly.




drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/13/2011 8:57:52)

Back to Support:

Support Abuser:"Oh noes, only 1 HP! No matter, I'll crit my problems away!"

Sadly, this works most of the time.

How about we give everyone a 10% Critical Chance, and more Support than your enemy reduces his/her Critical Chance?



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/13/2011 10:22:19)

@drinde

No. Imagine the horrors opponents of strength-spammers will face.

@Luna

*shrugs* It does nerf them significantly, but the actual effect (to me) doesn't seem that great. I personally think it's a band aid in the same way agility was to heal looping.



PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/13/2011 15:57:52)

Great post further up Silver Sky. I didn't see what Hun Kingq said cause I blocked him but I have no doubt it was as equally ridiculous as all his others in this thread.
I like your ideas too Luna, but even if you make them spend extra skill points your still left with the same problem, they have too many skills that work great together.

if the players who play tactical merc are so great and can create a build to counter any other [the argument levelled at anyone who complains about tac mercs] then
they don't need Hybrid armour, blood mages dont have it, cyber hunters dont have it, so whats the problem with tac mercs not having it ? plus they get 10 skill points :)



Dendavex -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/13/2011 16:00:58)

@Psibertus I've tried a build with level 1 hybrid just high defense to be honest we dont need hybrid maybe some new time of matrix that improves with dexterity or technology



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/13/2011 18:08:23)

For the record I have created sucessful builds, over 50% win rate, without Reroute and DA for mages(in fact my current build does not use DA) I have made an NPC build without Hybrid on my Merc(beat Caden, Overlord Guard, and hank then switched to a new build) and I made a BH build without Bloodlust



frosty123 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/13/2011 18:29:12)

Luna it may slow them down but what happens when they have extra points to place. If they did it would hardly do anything. My idea(I have no idea how to quote so i copyed and pasted it)

My opinion replace Hybred with Bld Shield then have reroute on fourth tier 3rd row. Like this

Medic, Double strike, Bld Shield

Maul,Technicain,Aton SMasher

Artillary,Toxic Gernade,Frenzy

Smoke, R-route, Surg Strike

Medic Connects to Maul, Maul connects Artillary and Toxic Gernade. Toxik gernade connects to Smoke and R-route
Double Strike connects to Technician
Bld SHield connects to Atom Smasher, then frenzy. Frenzy connects to surg strike



PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/13/2011 18:31:13)

@OWA and Dendavex: exactly, so theirs no problem with removing hybrid right. no way any merc can have over 130 support without hybrid
and still be the beast that they are now. ive seen a few mages with it but then they have a good setup for slow defensive builds regardless.


@OWA: is deadly aim really seen as the "cannot do without" skill ? I don't use it in an assimilation build and only use it on
my 5 focus high tech build so that I have a big physical attack to go with gamma bot. [I use charfades blaster]

the way I see it is, if most 33 are support tac mercs with max hybrid, then something is wrong with at least 1 of those things. support is clearly
a major issue, seeing as tac mercs are dominating with any build, I'd say thats a major issue too and having a debuff like smoke screen, reroute,
hybrid armour and 50+ extra stat points than any other class in the same position seems like a major issue to me too.

but hey, lets do this the other way around. remove hybrid armour from tac mercs and give them reflex boost, then give blood mages and cyber
hunters hybrid armour. oh wait, that's right, whenever that is mentioned people say it would make them too OP. lol gotta love tac merc logic.



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/13/2011 18:31:26)

frosty i dont think the lines on the skill tree can cross so how about switching surg and reroute so teh lines no longer cross


At above alot of people tell me i should have Deadly aim on my build but that is wasting 2 points just to put four into it which is a waste of time for minimal damage increase



frosty123 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/13/2011 18:34:38)

OWA your idea is very much appreciated. I messed up a bit but dont the special moves have to be in the second row 4 tier? Ill edited it anyways



PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/13/2011 18:36:22)

frosty, blood shield and technician ?



frosty123 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/13/2011 18:39:50)

psibertus What exactly do you mean by that?



PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/13/2011 19:09:01)

@frost: this is your suggested skill tree. has both blood shield and technician, you gonna add energy shield too ? :)

Medic, Double strike, Bld Shield

Maul,Technicain,Aton SMasher

Artillary,Toxic Gernade,Frenzy

Smoke, R-route, Surg Strike




frosty123 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/13/2011 20:52:27)

O i see. HOw about a draining shield. Not sure how it works but uhh costs 2-3 energy each turn its activated?



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/13/2011 20:58:38)

Hybrid armour aesthetically fits better with mercenary than rather compared to tactical mercenaries. Why? Mercenaries don't regenerate energy, they need bulk. Tactical mercenaries are slim and energized, no need to make them into destructive war-craft machines.



PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/13/2011 21:11:11)

@Greenraid: I agree. regular mercs are fine with Hybrid because they do not have smoke screen or malfunction. but If I had my own way I would at least
consider ditching Hybrid altogether and designing a new debuff for mercs. maybe one that reduces defence or resistance instead of dexterity or technology,
similar to the difference between defence matrix/energy shield and technician/reflex boost. you could even give a similar debuff to blood mages like if mercs
get the defence version, then blood mages get the resistance version, or vice versa.

now that all classes have a way to increase defence and resistance, all classes really could do with a debuff, and hybrid armour doesn't fit at all.



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