RE: What do you think about the balance changes? (Full Version)

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ngshuyi94 -> RE: What do you think about the balance changes? (10/8/2011 21:13:09)

@ psibertus

Dex and tech improves ur defence and resistance and enhance certain skills too, come on, dont be lame. Support is merely a luck factor, dex and tech are more reliable, u should open up ur eyes and take a look b4 even opening ur mouth and start scolding people.




Lord Nub -> RE: What do you think about the balance changes? (10/8/2011 22:23:26)

There once were two powerful build choices for TaM and soon only one will prevail...

Expect to see many more str TaM's after this update...




nico0las -> RE: What do you think about the balance changes? (10/8/2011 22:50:54)

On the bright side, Str TLM are far easier to kill.




FrostHS -> RE: What do you think about the balance changes? (10/8/2011 22:54:12)

^ yes true, Oh, and don't you love how almost all of the people hating are TaM's? XD




Stabilis -> RE: What do you think about the balance changes? (10/8/2011 23:02:23)

I think the game would be balanced if we had 11-15 classes to work with.




FrostHS -> RE: What do you think about the balance changes? (10/9/2011 0:08:04)

Yea but i can garuntee atleast 3 of those can sucessfully heal loop and not get nerfed for a long time




PD -> A More Holistic Approach to Balance (10/9/2011 1:36:31)

I'll try to be simple yet thorough with my language on this.

Holistic does not mean Holy, or anything religious. Below is the definition of holistic:

quote:

1. Characterized by comprehension of the parts of something as intimately interconnected and explicable only by reference to the whole

2. Characterized by the treatment of the whole person, taking into account mental and social factors, rather than just the physical symptoms of a disease


So you see, Holistic is the accounting of not just the simple rudimentary, but rather accounting not anything, but everything. I stress this because it seems that the every Poster fails to account for every factor. Balance can't be seen as separates. It must be taken on wholly and attacked and analyzed by looking into multiple factors. In short terms, our understanding of game balance is not correct. It hasn't been, and unless we take account for all factors, then we will fail. We must account for everything that goes into a build; The Stats, the weapons, the equipment, the skills, the math behind them, and the opponent's specs as well. Trying to say that classes are not balanced because they always win is not holistic approaching the problem. It is the exact opposite. You fail to account for the reason they are winning. Is it because of the numbers? Is it because of you? Is it because of luck factors? The problem of making the classes balanced cannot be done by only focusing on one part and slapping that as a way to get things done.

Now let me go over something. Balance in a game by itself means a state of conditions when the numbers line up and agree with the standards of the game in every single aspect. You cannot achieve that without taking into account of everything.

Now if you are told that Overpowered is when a build wins 95% of the time... they have no clue what they are talking about. They do not know what balance is, nor do they know how to fix it, and what the definition of significant balance terms are. A win rate does not reflect your skill. It does not reflect your build's power nor does it reflect how much money you spend on the game. It does not indicate yourself and/or your build being overpowered nor underpowered. It tells you nothing about balance logistics.

Overpowered is when you look at something, put it side-by-side to it's respective standard of it's level and reference, and see that the specific thing in question goes above said standard. Here is a more clear example of what I talk about...

If a standard in ED were that level 33 Varium primaries on average will get 33 Base damage with 26 Base stats and 8 enhancements, then you have 3 things to take care of...

1. Damage; If a level 33 varium weapon had less than 33 base damage, then it would be underpowered because it is under standard. If it has more than 33 base damage, then it is overpowered because it defies and exceeds standards of that level and reference.
2. Base Stats: If a weapon had less than 26 Base stats, it is underpowered because it's stats are not up with standards. If it has more than 26 base stats, then it is overpowered.
3. Enhancements: If it has more than 8 enhancements, then it is overpowered. If it is not, then it has less enhancements than the standard.

To solve a problem holistically... allow me to share an example... Let's say we're to test if a certain build is overpowered. We would first evaluate it's most basic makings: It's stats. How to the stats work with the skills? If the standards of skill power do not agree with a skill's power when put in play, then based on our conclusion, we know something is wrong. And then we look at how the stats work with their passives, as well as their moves such as strike. If we see that it too defies what should be the normal (again, a standard), then we know something is wrong. If it wins a lot, that does not give us a conclusion as the result of a battle is purely in the air due to multiple factors with first strike, damage rolls, defense rolls, luck factors, split-second decisions, and more. We must also consider any factors that the opponent's specs as well as actions did to affect the battle result as well. What one expects is not what they are to experience.

To analyze a build holistically, you do the same. You ask yourself these questions: What are the numbers behind the build? What are the stats behind it, and what is the relation between the Skills and stats and back, and forth. What stats must be allocated to gain such numbers? What number of skill points and stats must the user allocate to a certain area to get a certain degree of power? How does it fare against other kinds of builds, and other kinds of classes? How do luck factors account into it? What are the equipment pieces used, and how are they used? Asking those questions is a start to finding more universal and permanent answers.

The true way to balance ED is to establish a standard over all aspects. And the correct standards are not to be decided, but arrived at. The decisions should not be chosen. Rather, they too should be arrived at. There should not be "choices" of what to do or how to do something. Because ED lacks standards, all balance is left up to interpretations to seek what is and is not overpowered. People try to use stories and win rates to try to make a balance point... That is a dangerous way to do things. Balance based on faith and experience becomes subjective and backfires. It is not the universal and permanent solution, so therefore it will fail because it is based on nothing and had no agreed universal meaning nor authority. The story of what faith does is quite the trite one; We argue with each other and refuse to even try to come with a consensus of what to do.

Balance is meant to be a universal and non-subjective language that has no arguments nor deviating interpretations. True balance should not take decisions beyond evaluating it to standards and getting a conclusion from that. And even those are not subjective, as they are based off of a standard. They are as simple as can be. Like Chemistry, Physics, Calculus, Geometry and Mathematics, they are based on real hard evidence and proof, as well as complex series of formulas and numbers that go into a simple move. The true correct answer and is not chosen but rather arrived to, because there only is one true answer set (Unless the question itself has an error). analyzing a balance problem through any other means than with mathematical holistic methods do not give us an agreeable reference point and are up for interpretation and debate.


And because balance is the holistic approach to solving the game's problems through evaluating the numbers, so too should the balance follow the laws of math. Not on conjecture. Not on faith. Not on experience. Not on greed. Not on selfishness. Not on economic "rights" and "not haves". With numbers. The way it's supposed to be done.

Merged into the Balance Discussions thread. Anything related to balance belongs here. Please do not make additional threads about balance. ~Mecha




One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: What do you think about the balance changes? (10/9/2011 9:28:03)

Green that is a bit extreme and would actully make balance harder as you would have to look at 11-15 classes to see how a nerf affects them thus prolonging how long the OP'ed class stays in power




Stabilis -> RE: What do you think about the balance changes? (10/9/2011 10:18:43)

^ If people were to choose which class they want, would you prefer a majority of one class everyone uses, or minority with more classes divided up?

New idea: What if classes were meant in circle of disadvantage/advantage? Such as Pokemon where fire beats grass, grass beats water, etc.

.........Mercenary.........
........./...........^.........
......../..............\.......
.......V................\......
.....Bounty ------>Tech

*Note classes of different evolutions are not comparable

.............Tactical..........
........../............^........
......../................\.......
......V...................\.....
....Blood ---------->Cyber

The advantage could be a boost to rage accumulation and damage reduction (10%).



Edit: That did not answer my question [8|]
...|
...V




One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: What do you think about the balance changes? (10/9/2011 10:22:00)

I would pick the class that i enjoy the most but everyone else would pick the class that gets them the highest ratio of wins in the shortest amount of time




zion -> RE: A More Holistic Approach to Balance (10/9/2011 10:49:46)

I think I understand what you are getting at...

The only solution that makes sense in a PVP game is standardization.

I suggested a few months ago that weapon standardization was vital for ending the endless bickering about weapon power/value/rarity etc. and what should get buffed etc.

Well... they released a weapon standardization and now everyone "gets it" and knows what to expect from any weapon at a given level/varium/rarity etc. (The only thing that is unclear is the variation of aux power vs. fewer stat points)

I think armor stats/def need to get a standardization as well... But they seem pretty fair at the moment.

And now, we are up to builds - namely stat abuse, stat requirements and class skills - which require a standardization.

Some ideas:
"Stat Abuse"
1) Why do people have such a problem with stat "abuse"? Have you ever seen a class-based fighting game where everyone is supposed to have the same balanced stats? You might as well not have stats. Its usually called a "noob build."
2) Having balanced stats should be the weakest build. Generally, the objective of stats, is to maximize your stats for the strengths of your class.
For example: Mercs should have crazy str, BH should have crzy dex, TM should have crazy... oh tech!
As long as each class can play offensively for faster battles and defensively for longer battles, this is balanced.
3) I think that health and energy should be removed as stats, should be based on class and level (just like when we start the game) and healing should be a percentage of your total health (you can train for better percentage).
4) I think focus and agility were silly stop-gaps and should be removed completely.
5) This could open up space for at least one more stat (something for bot/guest/pet damage)
6) Maybe new stats or a combination of the others can help raise health/energy a bit.

"Stat requirements and class skills"
1) Stat requirements are clearly constant patches for a broken system.
2) According to my stat standardization, they would be unnecessary.
3) Make it that skills are only really useful when fully trained, but can be somewhat helpful at low levels.
4) The fact that you only get one point per level would then mean something.
5) If there must be stat requirements - why not have some standardization (like no 42 support requirements for passive skills).
6) The new-class skill trees are still problematic and need to be addressed (Quick Mash-ups of random skills are probably going to be under-powered - don't you think???) ( Yes I am talking mostly about Blood Mage - Ugh).

One final note to ponder-

How does this game get away with such an open-ended and limitless payment system?
Shouldn't there be a one-time upgrade status just to differentiate yourself from the masses, have access to stronger items, and different out-of battle perks? Shouldn't the insane Varium pricing scale be limited to just the most uber weapons and a way to pay for some perks that you normally have to play the game a lot to earn?
I say bring back elite and Varium should be premium items only.
If you spend money for a class or for a hairstyle, shouldn't you be able to store that and use it whenever you want?
This way someone can spend 4500 Varium and have access to any class!
"Balanced" is just another way of saying that everyone wants to know what they are getting in to before they decide to do something. Before selecting a class they want to know what are the strengths and weaknesses. Before spending money on the game, they want to know that it wont be rendered useless every update.




PivotalDisorder -> RE: What do you think about the balance changes? (10/9/2011 11:21:23)

most players would say the class that gets them the highest ratio of wins in the shortest amount of time is the one they enjoy the most ^^




Stabilis -> RE: What do you think about the balance changes? (10/9/2011 21:59:39)

Minor news: Cyber Hunter, 50% Technology, 50% Dexterity, no Focus, is useless. After spending 2.5k credits on retraining I can say in experience that it has no hope.

Perhaps technology and dexterity need an upgrade. Besides robots, a weapon slot that increases with technology and a weapon slot that increases with dexterity is a possibility in the near future. Cool-downs are welcome.

You can abuse your power (strength), you can abuse your friends (support), but you can't abuse your electronics (technology) nor your reflexes (dexterity).




AQWPlayer -> RE: What do you think about the balance changes? (10/9/2011 22:14:24)

@greenrain
In real life, I could abuse my reflexes for a quick counter attack :)




Midnightsoul -> RE: What do you think about the balance changes? (10/9/2011 22:18:07)

quote:

Reversion - Passive - Cyber Hunters - Replaces Shadow Arts - 18-36 Support Requirement

Description: A % of damage recieved is returned to the Attacker
Effect: 5-15% of damage taken is returned to the attacker.



@drinde
to me, the name should be static shield so like when someone touches ur shield, it electrifies them. just like the shield from mage in dragonfable. the move should instead have a pic with a dark blue bubble with purple aura flowing around it. ive actually thought of a move like this so im giving u a suggestion. also, i do not think it should replace SA, i think it should be another new move. the shadow arts CH's should possess is one that increases connect chance by 10% instead of block. also, for the static shield, it would be too OP'ed. it should have a tech requirement plus it needs to be first toggled on ( lasts for the rest of the fight, cant give to ally)




Stabilis -> RE: What do you think about the balance changes? (10/9/2011 22:25:50)

@AQWPlayer, I know. [;)]

Except its not true here in EpicDuel where technology is only defensive really and dexterity the same. Sigh. [&o]




romanu -> RE: What do you think about the balance changes? (10/10/2011 4:16:04)

going back to beta.....TM,TLM,CH will heal loop thx to reroute and other energy skils. normal mercenary.....killed. more strength builds...




goldslayer1 -> RE: What do you think about the balance changes? (10/10/2011 4:22:07)

quote:

Expect to see many more str TaM's after this update...

maybe. but those who will be successful are only the ones can make the good builds.
all these reqs are stopping are the newbs who cant make builds
but eventually those who can make good builds, will be copied by the newbs who cant
so its only going to last a while.




comicalbike -> RE: What do you think about the balance changes? (10/10/2011 5:28:59)

goldslayer 1 i entirely agree




PivotalDisorder -> RE: What do you think about the balance changes? (10/10/2011 14:26:08)

@Bloodknight997: I posted that idea over a month ago at least, just I called it Static Shock.

@Greenrain: High Dex with energy armour works just fine, my 33 multi-massacre build is in the BSI section under cyber hunters.




Stabilis -> RE: What do you think about the balance changes? (10/10/2011 18:44:47)

^ Technology? What if situation: Pure technology? Tried that, not even plasma grenade is trustworthy.




FrostHS -> RE: What do you think about the balance changes? (10/10/2011 20:34:12)

You guys are using Cyber wrong if it is failing. I win over 95% of the time with my build against TaM and other full var classes, and never lost to a f2p player yet.




Stabilis -> RE: What do you think about the balance changes? (10/10/2011 21:04:42)

^ I have a good 21 energy gorging static shock build AND a 24 energy gorging static shock build. They work great but only have 80% green marks. I KNOW how to use cyber, to let you join this conversation we are talking about retraining into dex and tech abuse builds and analyzing their success rates. If you want to share your remarks on pure dex or tech go ahead Frost. We are not in a pickle even more so not complaining either.




plasma devastator -> RE: What do you think about the balance changes? (10/10/2011 22:15:28)

i'd think it's good to buff Blood Lust to at least 25% at max

Level 5 Reroute = 23%

MAX Blood Lust = 23%

I don't know why the % of blood lust is lower then the % of Reroute. I'd either Nerf reroute down to 23% or buff Blood Lust to 30%





ND Mallet -> RE: What do you think about the balance changes? (10/10/2011 22:53:05)

@plasma Bloodlust is lower down on the skill tree than Reroute is. Not to mention that you need to be hit for Reroute to take effect whereas Bloodlust needs to hit to take effect.




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