RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 1:44:24)

@Remorse

Agreed, 1 class i have most trouble with - Blood Mage. It's totally OP with it's over amount of STR. Imagine yourself in battle against a lv34 BM with 120+hp, 27-33 damage, high str, enough energy for 2 devastating attacks, MAX fireball, 4 or 5 bezerk, 6 or 7 deadly aim, plus Azazel bot, and they go first. Even regardless of who goes first, your win chance would still be incredibly low. I calculate my chance of win against BMs like that are about 15-20%. I'm not being dramatic btw, i have lost about 70 battles to BMs like that, and instead of nerfing the CH and TLMs, BM stays intact and its OPness flows through every battle.

We should at least nerf BM, or if not nerf STR builds so it would at least give us a higher % win chance. One fireball hit me, then boom, 59hp gone, before i even got my turn, more than 50% of my hp is lost. O.o

Sorry BMs but this issue should be dealt with, it's Overpowered-ness might even top the OP days of TLM. Then if u survive fireball, well done, because next desert is on, you guessed it:Berzerker. and if u survived that, then congratz, you still need to live through sidearm+deadly aim+STR.

So 3 'Devastating' attacks all onto you, along with their bloodlust, they mightn't even lose 1 hp in battle. Balance Team should immediately deal with this issue if not now.
Because sooner or later, BM will possibly dominate and take away all means of 'fairness', 'chance' and game balance throughout each battle. Please do not despise me for my persist-ency, but this is a serious issue concerning battle chances today. Thank you for your time :)



Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 1:47:16)

^
So a STR BH with DA instead of smoke?
They have low defenses TLM have frenzy and FC, FC+Frenzy will do the trick, or DS with FC.
Also you have reroute so you will be getting energy faster than you can use it so try healing whenever possible.



Luna_moonraider -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 1:48:14)

@ remorse

then what other builds do u want every1 to use 5 focus i dont want ed to be epic 5 focus duel pls power builds are fast but they purely depend on luck.

Back to topic;

ok basically i retrained like 5 times yesterday XD. most tlm/ch retrained tons of times yesterday and i found out the only build which is reasonable is a stat spaming build 5 focus= leaves non varium with holes here and there as they dont have enuf stat 5 focus support build works ok but yeah rusty assault bot is not worth using as a dmg tool. yes the non var and varium gap is closing up but well i would say it is kinda hard to play as a tlm right now but it is still manageable. as for ch tank/5 focus ch cant win much now and most of the ch build are slow(excluding str build)

also a support nerf should be made in game the support nerf. since support nerf from delta weps are well random i rather there be a support nerf skill an i do not think a support buff skill is a good idea but a support nerf skill is certainly good.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 2:02:31)

@ Rayman,

Giving focus/balanced builds more damage IS NOT the solution.

But your thinking is right.

Except too much power is the problem so giving those with LESS power more power, will not work.

What needs to be done is the power abusers need there available power minimised by removing gun and aux enhaments for example.(plus add a enhaments sell back so player can get refunded.)

@ Luna

No I dont want everyone to go 5 focus, But people only go 5 focus if there not a power build because thats practically the only way they have a chance of matching there power.
5 focus arnt that strong anymore with being limted to 1 robot move every 3 turns.

But power build constantly restrict build, so by reducing power you actuly INCREASE variety by alot.

Similar back to times in beta when many people had diffrent style builds etc and they could be effective because they wouldnt get wiped out in 2 secs by a power build.

By saying you support effortles wining build you actuly support variety constrictions, teriable luck, and staretgy killing game.



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 2:08:16)

Another problem with what i have come across is enhancing my items, it costs a load for non var, and quite a lot of var as well, so taking away gun+aux ENH isn't a bad idea.



Luna_moonraider -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 2:11:41)

@ remorse

dont think the devs would do such a stuff but we could use golds idea of making side arm improve with support and str. and a support debuff skill can stop support power build str power build can be stopped by intimidate and having high dex. yes azreal bot/assault bot and many other bot can stop these counters the problem here is the bots are oped and not factored into the balance of each class.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 2:19:44)

^ Power builds will always be a problem and will never end so long as there are far too many stats for players to use.

If the balance team manage to slow these build without taking there power but a diffrent way such as a requirment or switching sidearm to support.

It will only ever be a temporary solution with often just as bad side effects.


Power needs to be reduced for everyone!
That way it doesnt lead to other build becoming oped or uderpowered as a side effect.
Because there will always be often time lagging side effects if its done anyother way.


If everyone had power reduced, tanks wont be so defensive, attakers wont be so strong.
But the one thing that doesnt egt effected as much is staretgy in which it should become more influecning agian aswell as luck based battles reduced as turns are not as vitale to attack in to win.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 2:23:01)

@arevero Stats for BM
Health: 46
Energy: 44
Strength: 22
Dexterity: 19
Technology: 21
Support: 18

At level 34 you have 132 points to spend. To get 120 health, you have to spend 37 points(37*2=74. 74+46=120) To use Max Fireball and lvl 4 Zerk you need 66 energy and 33 dexterity(11 energy points and 14 dex points). To get 27-33 damage you need 129 strength. I have +63 strength bonus but to make this as likely as possible I shall find the greatest strength buffs in the game.

Spectral Reaper
Str: 14 +9 enhancements=23
Dark Star
Str: 10 +7 enhancements=17
Bunnyzooka
Str: 9 +6 enhancements=15
Founder Armor
Str: 5 +10 enhancements=15
Total strength boost is 70. 129-70=59 base strength. That's 37 points into strength. Let's total all the stats used up until now(before item requirements). 37+25+37=99. 33 points left to spend and we still have the weapon reqs and the other skill req. Spectral Reaper requires 38 str and 35 tech. Darkstar requires 41 str and 32 dex. Bunnyzooka requires no stat points nor does armor. So 14 points for tech and you have 19 points left to spend. A lvl 6 DA requires 34 support or 16 points invested in it. That leaves only 3 stat points left. This is the best situation for the build that you say you fight so very often when it requires 3 rare pieces of gear. 2 of which are amongst the rarest of items in the game.

23 dex from weapons
18 tech from weapons

Defense(56+2 left over stat points of dex):
19-23-1
Resistance(53+1 left over stat point of tech):
20-24+7-1

The obvious flaws are that the defense is low and accuracy is going to be terrible.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 2:29:22)

^ Does not matter if gear is rare or not,

If people have it then it should be considered a problem.

The balance team should not think less of builds with too much power just because you need certain rares to use the full potential especially when simialr version acheive almsot the same standard.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 2:32:37)

@remorse My point was that a build like he describes is going to be really rare to fight, not something you'll be fighting 70+ times each day.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 2:39:26)

^But because there are some,

Players feel forced to go similar just slightly less powerful version so they can attmept to beat them.

Some people have to go weaker version of these builds so they stand a chance....

How sad is that.

You may not fight 70 full powered version with rares but you likely fight 70 similar builds with the same effortless strategy.




goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 2:55:11)

remove plasma armor.

this game went from 1 class having a passive armor, to 3 classes having a passive armor.
and like i said before, ontop of that the 2 newer ones with the passive, outclass the original one if they didn't have a passive armor.

TLM and Ch both without passives outclasses Merc.
put a passive on that, and u dont expect imbalance?



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 3:00:50)

^ I agree gold,

Thats why I have been pushing for TLMs and CHs passive armour to be swtiched.

If it does happen then i support TLMs getting Smoke back, and CHs getting a decent static back.
Plus as a bonus mercs will become automatically balanced agian because they will be unique and the only class to have a passive armour rather then oped versions with an energy regain.

But the overall power of builds also need to be reduced to get proper balance on top of even out classes there needs to be no dominate style build.



Ashari -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 3:09:30)

quote:

In that case then the nerf would not be as dramatic as it seems, if the case was to add classes to increase more variety to the game, then i wouldn't argue against that, but it's still a problem if these classes which need varium/50k creds, aren't as good as your original class, unless everyone used different classes for the experience, not the all-time winning OPness that many still love by

I don't think the removal of Smoke Screen was unwarranted. Tactical Mercenaries were doing far better than any other class (even Cyber Hunter) at all levels of combat. Cyber Hunters were overpowered only near the max level where they could stat abuse for a very specific high dex Multi-Shot build. They could use Multi-Shot at liberty due to the high EP regen of Static Charge.

Tactical Mercenaries benefitted in their Stun Grenade, Double Strike, Artillery Strike and Frenzy from Smoke Screen. It was very unbalanced for a class to benefit in so many powerful skills from Smoke Screen when it has the tanking capabilities it does. There were two options on handling Tactical Mercenaries. Other than removing Smoke Screen, the other was removing Reroute to take away the sustainability of TLMs. However that change would mean a much more drastic shift in the playstyle of Tactical Mercenaries and finding an appropriate replacement skill would also have been difficult.

I've already seen some very creative Tactical Mercenary builds that gave me quite a challenge in battle. Toxic Grenade seems to be a favorite now that Tactical Mercenaries can't bypass defense completely and I've also seen some frightening Field Commander Strength builds that easily rivaled even the most offensive Blood Mages. The class certainly isn't dead, but I'll be sure to check on the balance numbers next week to see how it is holding up. If it needs a bit of boost to compensate for the nerfs, it will get it.


As for power builds, adding another tier of diminishing returns to stats may be the simplest approach. Right now, the top tier is at 85+ stats. Following past progression, there should be another tier around 115+ stats, which isn't too out of place in some builds nowadays. Removing enhancements isn't a realistic approach, and changing the way they work would require quite a major engine change.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 3:16:27)

^
Why is it removing some enhaments not a realistic approach??

I found the game most enjoyable at the time when guns and auxs didnt have enahments.

It was fine when only primary and armour had enhaments why can it not be changed back to that time??


If your wondering about supporters of this change?

Well almost every single person I ask about wat they think about gun/aux enhaments they all think it should be removed. (providing there was a sell back to be refunded)

And I also asked ALOT of people if they knew that adding enhaments on gun and aux ehancemnts in easter last year (yes I rmeber the exact date when I felt the game died.)
Would not be good for the game at that time and they all agreed.

Encumberance is only a fall back to the extra stats but the diffrence is encumberance restircits creativity were as having less enahments keeps the creativity but lowers the power of the overly strong builds.
Also It will give players a much apreciated freedom if they were able to have flexiablity in guns and auxs they could use.
Most players are restricted to one set of wepons simply because its FAR to much to afford. But why lower the cost if you can fix balance at the same time?

Thanks for responding on this issue :)



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 3:43:58)

quote:

Why is it removing some enhaments not a realistic approach??

because they would loose money.

for every gun/aux/weapon/armor that people buy, its almost $15-$20 per item if u want to enhance them.

this is an issue i brought up with ashari and got no reply what so ever from her. or any other staff.

in fact none of the staff have been replying to PMs.

one of the main questions im asking is, what are the limitation to balancing. what can u do and what can u not do?

for example, removing enhancements is a can not do. because they would loose money.

so this is why i have been trying to ask the staff what they can and cant do so that i may make a proper suggestion to balance on something that they can actually do. i been here posting in this forum for the past year, and that question just came to my mind now.

im tired of posting suggestions for balance without knowing if they can even do it. how are players who are actually experienced (u know, the ones who knew plasma armor would make CH OP before it even was released) suppose to make balance suggestions when we dont know what the devs want, what they can do and what they cant do regarding balance.


so Ashari, i would really appreciate a response on this matter.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 3:56:02)

^ But removing gun/aux enhaments wouldnt lose them that much money,

Afer all if they do this then players will be able to buy more guns and auxs or repair the ones they find because thye wont have to enhance them,
Players arnt gonna wanna repair things if they have to enahnce them....

And players arnt gonna buy new things as much either.

So there is an upside money factor,plus this way it is alot more ethical and less drain the addicted players of money.


Another excuse I also see is, "Enhamnets are used to sustain rares"

Well if that was the point why did they go through so much effort to anounce that rares will never get buffed agian???

Alot of questions, we dont know the answer to.

I also agree with you gold.

If they simply said they wont do things then we could base our sugestion around not doing that etc.




goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 4:00:55)

quote:

So there is an upside money factor,plus this way it is alot more ethical and less drain the addicted players of money.

yeah well, sometimes when its business (and not gaming) ethics dont matter.

quote:

Alot of questions, we dont know the answer to.

yup, just the regular day of the general population here in ED.
where we get insect facts instead of game facts.

quote:

If they simply said they wont do things then we could base our sugestion around not doing that etc.

yup.
my guess is the staff is trying to dodge bullets by not answering questions.

but with all the heat they get from these balance updates. who could blame them.



RageSoul -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 4:18:30)

I have an idea ....
How about instead of people force to play 24/7 just for a weapon and its enhancements , there will be a system called "Upgrading" , whereas i need to do stuff to get my current weapon to become stronger and used for next levels? There are a few ways to do it :
1) Through "Farming" :
Example : Mjolnir --> Mjolnir 2
Objective : Collect 355 Energy Cores from Shadow Guards ( 100% drop rate ) and 10 Energy Boosters .
*Can only be done once . If you every sell the upgraded Mjolnir , this mission is replayable . Oh , BTW , you get no Varium from selling the upgraded weapon even though it is buyable with Varium .
2) Through Direct Purchase :
Example # 1 : Caden's Curse --> Caden's Wrath
Upgrade Requirements : Character Level 28 and 1500 Credits .

Example # 2 : Toxic Chompers --> whatever strong weapon you might think if in the future that fits into its design
Upgrade Requirements : 2 Bio Blades , Character Level ( insert any level above 34 ) and 3500 Credits .

Some questions that might be in your mind ( i hope ) that needs answers :
Q : What if i upgraded a weapon with enhancements already ?
A: Then you get a free "re-enhance" . The amount of points you've enhanced will the amount that is free . If you enhance more points , then it will charge you the same price ( as of current )

Q: Wait , how would i know if a weapon is uprgraded?
A: There will be a sign that will tell you that it's upgraded .
Q: What's the sign?
A: If you go to Inventory and selected the upgraded weapon , it will show that it has a "symbol" that represents the upgrade level .

Q: What's the purpose of this ?
A: It was stated in the first place that people are forced to do 24/7 just for one item's optimal power . Plus , to save money at low levels by preserving with this system and to give the game a new twist .

Q: Is it for only Non-Vars and for Non-Var gear?
A: No , it's for everybody and every equipment.



Ashari -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 4:35:26)

@goldslayer1: Sorry about the PMs. I've gotten quite a ton about the balance changes over the weekend, and I'm taking my time to address each one of them individually. I'll try and answer you tomorrow about your suggestion. :)

As for limitations to what can be done for balance, there are quite a few depending on the situation. For new skills I need collaboration of both Titan or RabbleFroth for coding and Nightwraith for art, so they are very time intensive. That means making a new skill is usually the last option considered when we do balance. For example, we're set on giving Mercenaries a new rage increasing passive, the time constraints the team has means it won't be possible for another week at the latest.

I see a lot of balance suggestions which start out with 2 or 3 new skill ideas. Completely reshaping a class' skill tree in order to solve a balance problem isn't the way to go. Making huge changes at once is unlikely to happen because of limited development time and equally unlikely to go through without creating a new balance problem.

There have also been many suggestions that are trying to solve problems that aren't there. An EP drain for Blood Mage is a common suggestion, but Blood Mages are actually quite balanced with their current skill tree so that suggests that every class doesn't need to share the same general setup of mechanics (stun, EP drain, debuffs, buffs) to be balanced. That's not to say we won't make changes unless there's a balance problem, but it's usually something to avoid.

There are plans to eventually give each of the evolved classes a new ultimate skill to replace Super Charge, Massacre and Surgical Strike for example -- that's to make the classes feel more unique, so the evolved and original classes aren't so similar. However, we can't usually make changes just for the sake of making changes, especially when it risks knocking the classes back off balance.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 4:56:11)

^

What is your stance on power builds??

Do you think they are even a problem???


Because today I have lost to around 7/10 blood mages with there very powerful STR builds with absolutely nothing I could do excpet hope for luck...

How come this is not a balance focus?

I have considered this a problem ever since enhaments were made, some times its not so bad but other times its extremely bad. (such as now 95% of maxed level players are forced to go power builds)


Am I the one thinking that the reason why Variety is tiny is because of power builds???

And if you do think it is a problem needing to be dealt with high how priority is it?
Because if its not high then I dont see why I should play these battles of luck and power.



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 5:03:27)

quote:

Making huge changes at once is unlikely to happen because of limited development time and equally unlikely to go through without creating a new balance problem.

less development time = more testing time.

but i am curious tho, why did u take the static charge nerf aproach to CH instead of removing plasma armor?
which would have been more balanced how the class was set up before the plasma armor buff.

for example, the massacre build before plasma armor came never had as much defense as today.
now the mass builds can come 93 str, 125 hp, and 33-35 defense and energy.
if u removed plasma armor, it would be -11 on one of those. making it balance because it sacrifices defense for offense.

and if u removed mineral armor from tlm instead of smokescreen, merc would have been more balanced due to it being the only one with a passive armor.

and its good to know what how limited the suggestions can be.
when i make a suggestion i consider every angle for the suggestions.
this means how such a change would affect when battling another class/build. i try to see how such class would do against all other types of build for every class and then base my suggestion on that. however written/thought of simulations can only go so far as opposed to actual tested simulations.



Ashari -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 5:10:41)

quote:

What is your stance on power builds??

Do you think they are even a problem???

I do see a problem, and the liberty of enhancement stats is definitely one of the contributing causes of it. I've thought of a few ways to redo the enhancement system without removing it outright, but any one of them would require a big coding project.

On option would be to limit enhancements to the stats already present on the weapon. A weapon without any Dex could not be enhanced with Dex for example. Weapons with all 4 stats would still let you enhance however you want though.

A more complex solution would have the enhancement stats predetermined based on the weapons starting stats. A weapon that has 16 strength and 4 Dex and 10 enhance slots for example, would be enhancable to +8 Strength and +2 Dex. The stat it gains each time you enhance it would already be predetermined, and it would reflect the starting stats. This way, you'd be much more limited to which stats you could improve. You could no longer put every single enhancement point into Dexterity for example.

The second option would be the ideal one and you'd actually be improving weapons & armors, instead of changing their stat makeup completely, but it's not an easy system to implement.



drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 5:11:45)

^
Um. Wouldn't allowing weapons with STR NOT bring able to enhance STR seem more logical?



Ashari -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 5:17:31)

^ I did also think of the reverse, but once again, that creates a problem with weapons that have all 4 stats. It also creates the problems of enhancements being unfavorable on weapons designed for a type of build, like for strength builds (the Rusted Runeblade).



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