RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 5:20:04)

How about this:

Weapons being released from this moment forth have less and less Enhancement Slots, until we end up with a maximum of 3-4 slots per Weapon*?

This would let players be able to choose between Damage and Stats.

*Including Perma-Rare, Perma-Super-Ultra rare, and whatever else.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 5:20:46)

@ Ashari,

I really apreciate the fact you guys have an interest to this issue.

And I like the progress with the ideas you have come up with,
In particular I like the set enhaments idea.

But Even still I think the problem is too much stats in total,
Even if power builds arent able to spam one partiucar stat to the degree they wish, because there is soo many stats they can still achieve great power.


For example.

Some power builds often have reletively even stats such as reasonably high defences and great attack power because there class has an energy regain and high defences (often through passives) then can get the power build status while having all the requiments you can toss at them.

In the end I dont think they will ever fully budge unless you some how lower the total amout of stats players have to use.


@ Drinde

I agree with that idea!



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 5:24:15)

I left this thread 8hrs ago on page #9 and it's already on 12.. o.o
Anyway, Ashari would you be able to comment on this idea of CHs and possibly TLMs? http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=20131221

You cannot deny that these nerfs to Static Charge were due to Plasma which had to balance it out just so they keep it, and IIRC, there were 2 nerfs to it or maybe one, I'm really not sure.
Merc and TLM should be only classes with passive Armor, and making them both have Hybrid Armor (up to +6 Res and +6 Def) would make it more balanced. Now you can have Mineral, average Dex, and spam Tech while having E Armor to make it a good Tank. Mercs cannot do it although with current HA, you can actually play with E or P Armor as both can work with it.

@drinde
Honestly like it as well! :D But what would be with older weapons? They could still be stronger even compared to higher Lvl weapons, 6-7 slots is like 2 Levels advantage so you could keep them even for longer than you should. Although, if that's not a problem, it'd be good!



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 5:26:54)

^I still think only mercs should have passive armour.


This way they wont have to make a new skill for them because if merc were the only class with a passive armour they would becomed more balanced with the rest persides the killer Power build no one can kill without starting or luck.



drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 5:28:34)

I agree with Trans though. Give them TtMs Hybrid Armor.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 5:28:44)

But we want TLMs to have the Hybrid Armor, which is a bit more balanced than Mineral or Plasma. Without Smoke but with Reroute, it's still a good thing and suits Merc's theme. CH would lose Plasma as that makes no sense for Hunter to be defensive while SC works based on Str (Hunter).



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 5:38:19)

quote:

^I still think only mercs should have passive armour.


This way they wont have to make a new skill for them because if merc were the only class with a passive armour they would becomed more balanced with the rest persides the killer Power build no one can kill without starting or luck.


yeah, merc was the only one with a passive armor.
now 3 classes have them. its no wondering the original merc is considered obsolete.

a no passive armor CH and tlm (with smoke, and the old static charge) would still outclass merc. but merc would be at a better situation than it is now.

with that said, if u removed the passive armor of CH, and TLM, a new passive skill for merc wouldn't be needed. (unless rage comes every other turn or every second turn. its not gonna be worth it considering the amount of skill points needed for that, and for hybrid. leaving less options for other skills)

u can replace plasma armor with technician like it had before.
and mineral armor for smokescreen.
and restore CH's static charge how it was before the plasma armor buff.

then the str builds would be more balanced because of lack of defenses.



AQWPlayer -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 5:41:51)

Lol wouldn't decreasing enhancement prices/increasing battle rewards solve the problem more easily? Oh and I think varium weapons should be given less base stats and more enhancement slots so balance can be improved and devs don't lose money. Ex: NonVar wep has +10 dex and +6 tech with 5 enhancement slots; Var wep can have +12 dex and +5 tech with 7-8 enhancement slots.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 5:42:21)

@goldslayer1
That new passive for Mercs is to replace Blood Shield as they find it useless (no HP nor EP regen). Passive will be out for Mercs and will be unique for their class, making BS unique for TLMs.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 5:46:44)

^ Yeh merc should still get the new passive but I think instead of increasing rage I think it should reduce how quicly there oppoenent gets rage.

Why?
Mercs would no longer have any sheilds aprat from hybrid which is hardly enough these days so something that defens agaisnt constant rage attacks would give them the extra defensive help they need.
But to make sure it wasnt abused by tanks perhaps the rage reduction would only occur if the merc sheilded LESS then 70% of the attack.
for example:
A merc had 40 defence and the oppoenent hit 10 ( 50 damage) 40/50=80% therfore the opponent wont have any rage reduction due to the passive because the merc defended 80%(more then 70%) of the attack.

@ Gold,

I dont think it would end well if TLMs had both feild comander and smoke..... so I think for mineral they should get defence matrix and for feild comander they get back smoke.



AQWPlayer -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 5:47:22)

quote:

Passive will be out for Mercs and will be unique for their class, making BS unique for TLMs.

BS? o.o...does that stand for....O_O ******** is unique to TLMs o.O



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 5:50:23)

Blood Shield.. o.o



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 5:51:20)

quote:

BS? o.o...does that stand for....O_O ******** is unique to TLMs o.O

/facebrick
lol



Prime Assassin -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 6:40:17)

i'm actually quite happy with this update. it hasn't destroyed tlms. i persoanlly think its a buff, got a epic build i wanna try as them.
ch still incredably annoying but this update has helped. however i personally think their plasma armour is the problem and not the static.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 7:39:52)

I like the progress I see in Balance Discussion, not too interrogating right now, and not too sketchy.



vincentlucca -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 7:50:43)

hi guys,
I'm with an issue right now.
Since the latest balance update, mercs. don't have smoke anymore.
i think thats unfair because mercs are the only class (and i mean tactical as normal mercs) without any ability to reduce defenses.
i had a robot build, with max smoke, but now with the update ,the whole idea of being a merc robot build, is worthless.
also i think they should give mercs something more again, because lots like me have bought (varium) armor, weps etc. that are useless now.
is it fair, that we paid for this, and it is worth nothing anymore?

greets vincentlucca (aka noble spartan 1)



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 8:09:22)

^

So should should I argue to you that I have bought at least $500 in EpicDuel products, therefor my balance requests to Cyber Hunters be met?



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 8:11:09)

@vincentlucca
BM has no skill to reduce defences, so does Merc. Give up Mineral Armor or Reroute and you can get Smoke back.

Anyway, Void and I though of another suggestions how to buff up BMs a little. Solution: take out Energy Shield for Blood Shield. Please continue reading before you judge it wrongly, as it's different..

[image]http://epicduelwiki.com/images/4/49/Skill_blood_shield_0.png[/image]
Blood Shield: Sacrifice your health to activate an energy shield for you or an ally.

Energy Required: 0 (No Cost)
Conversion ( Progression depends on character level ):

Level 1: 4 / 5 / 6 Health transfered to x2 Resistance
Level 2: 5 / 6 / 7 Health transfered to x2 Resistance
Level 3: 6 / 7 / 8 Health transfered to x2 Resistance
Level 4: 7 / 8 / 9 Health transfered to x2 Resistance
Level 5: 8 / 9 / 10 Health transfered to x2 Resistance
Level 6: 9 / 10 / 11 Health transfered to x2 Resistance
Level 7: 10 / 11 / 12 Health transfered to x2 Resistance
Level 8: 11 / 12 / 13 Health transfered to x2 Resistance
Level 9: 12 / 13 / 14 Health transfered to x2 Resistance
Level 10: 13 / 14 / 15 Health transfered to x2 Resistance

Warm Up: 0
Cool Down: 2

So goign by that, 1 HP = 2 Res simply. We want to keep same HP cost as it is because BMs can get HP back via BloodLust which provides great synergy. Seeing as Energy Shield costs Energy, it's hard for BMs to play defensively with limited Energy, and also Reflex costs Energy too which makes it even harder in some situations.
At Lvl 10, you could get up to 30 Resistance (depends on your Lvl) by spending 15 HP for 3 turns only. If you look at EShield/DMatrix, they can do that as well at high Lvl or with high Support but you have to pay Energy instead which is not possible to regenerate for BMs. Cooldown is also lowered to 2 turns because it lasts just 3 turns - before it lasted 5 turns and cooldown was 4.
Main reason this is stronger is lower duration of the Shield, therefore we could increase power significantly and it could work for BMs quite well. This could perhaps open possibility for other builds than just Str because BL works with every weapon, not just Primary so you could go for a Tank and use Tech for Plasma, or SC build with BL and BS. Dex improves SC so your weakness would be whichever was lower and you could fix it by using BS.

Feedback anyone? :3



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 8:12:01)

I have ninja'd you.



Prime Assassin -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 8:15:13)

guys are u seriously agueing about a class without a debuff? 70% of players probelly have assult bot now (including rusted assult) i personally think tlms got a buff and i'm thinking of becoming one soon.



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 10:23:28)

Woah I been gone for like what 10-12 hours? 4 more pages already! Anyway I agree with Remorse in this discussion. If you removed Mineral Armor and Plasma Armor. And replace them with Def Matrix and Energy Shield. And gave us our smoke back and buffed CHs static charge back to what it use to be. Then everything would be fine.
@Remorse This is what I was saying the devs would never remove any enhancements because they would lose money. So I assume Ashari's idea of not allowing you to enhance in a certain stat if that already has a lot of that stat. For example Rusted Runeblade you should not be allowed to enhance it with strength. But only other stats. I believe if this was done and enhancements didn't cost nearly as much (credits and var) the problem would not be as much of an issue. As all pure spam builds would lose a lot of power. These STR BMs surpass even us STR TLMs.

quote:

There have also been many suggestions that are trying to solve problems that aren't there. An EP drain for Blood Mage is a common suggestion, but Blood Mages are actually quite balanced with their current skill tree so that suggests that every class doesn't need to share the same general setup of mechanics (stun, EP drain, debuffs, buffs) to be balanced. That's not to say we won't make changes unless there's a balance problem, but it's usually something to avoid.

Ugh their is a problem. Their STR builds are completely OP. They can 2-3 turn K.O. We TLMs can't even do that anymore. I'm talking 29-35 + 34 primary and sidearm damage. Their fireball can deplete 1/3 - 1/2 of your HP in one hit. Then their is beseker that can deplete 1/3 - 1/2 of your HP. And then their is their gun with deadly aim. Therefore if the fireball and beseker didn't kill you this certainly will as another 1/3 of your HP will be gone. You have to hope that you block their attacks and deflect their gun otherwise you are dead. That isn't balance.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 10:42:59)

Isaiah, yes there are 4 more pages which is suprising but did you read 'Shari's posts? Mainly dimnishing stats, putting another limit at about 110-115 to make them weaker. I think it'd also apply to skills but not sure. Berzerker for sure would be affected as their Str wouldn't give as much bonus as it does now so that's a positive thing.
About TLMs, yes we have separate opinion about it but I'd not like to see Smoke returning in any form at all. Reasons for it were already given - Frenzy, Double Strike, and other skills that went together with the Smoke and made them quite OP'ed. Until we know data from Balance Tracker and until FC buff, we can't do anything but see if they need a buff. If so, then 'Shari said that she'll gladly give one if needed.
Currently TLMs are still doing a bit too good, most STR went for Poison like me but I went for more of a Tank build instead with Poison which works great as non-Varium at Lvl 29. There's SS build and Multi, as well as custom ones involving Atom Smasher - trust me, high Atom is deadly for most of builds, I tried fighting Digital X and his build which is also a Tank was a bit deadly with Atom but no Poison, Multi, SS or anything. Did great.
That's why I suggested HA in place of Mineral, why make special skill for TLMs that gives them even bigger advantage? And Blood Shield might be useless but I made suggestion above, it could only apply to BMs but for TLMs it'd also be good idea as it'd make the skill a lot more useful.

For CHs I suggested simply their old skill tree with new Malf. Yes, that means CHs will not have Plasma as it should be Merc-only perk, in form of current Hybrid Armor not P and E version. Reason why CH's were "UPed" has OP'ness of TLMs at the time. Now with Plasma Armor, see CHs? They are still OP'ed after SC nerf and SC is much less useful, it has good use but everyone would like old tree back and no OP'ness.



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 10:50:31)

@Trans I still find def matrix much more useful then HA. I'll agree with Remorse that it can be a merc exclusive skill. But if we had smoke and lose mineral armor our STR builds wouldn't be nearly as strong as we would have to change our builds and get a lot more dex or an armor. And def matrix cost energy it would be hard to use def matrix for def then use smoke screen then use double strike or frenzy. Especially since one EMP can be fatal.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 11:02:08)

@Isaiah
Sure it's much more useful, bigger boost, but it lasts just 3 turns + costs Energy + wastes a turn for increased rage for enemy. You know what that means? You get killed quicker in the end, I know it from my TM who uses Matrix and usually either gets crushed because of it or wins.
Your posts a bit confuses me - you're for Matrix and bringing back Smoke but without HA/Mineral, it'd be hard to maintain Str build? With Hybrid, you still need 42 Dex for requirements just like now so that's a bit less points into Str while HA is for Res and Def. Reroute gives you an edge over Mercs, you're evolved so you can Regen EP and have no debuff, just like them. Reroute is more of a Tank skill which goes great with HA really, that's why I'd like to keep it. Frenzy is alternative to Heal for Str builds that works with Reroute if you're not Tank but main point is to slowly start crushing Str-abusers which are a problem. Dimnishing stats is the good way, especially adding another range.
If you look at it in different way - Str build: Poison, mid-Frenzy, HA, and whatever else you want -> Poison always hits for low damage but gives you 39 damage at maxed Lvl that is static (13 per turn) while Smoke might affect their skills but if you miss or they debuff it then you wasted a turn - you cannot debuff Poison. Frenzy used with high Str gives you HP back, yes would be more effective with Smoke but you have HA which allows you to defend still and maintain high damage.



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 11:15:49)

@Trans I'm not sure. I would have to acually use both skills in order to see which one is more effective. I just don't think +6 def and res would help me much.



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