RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 13:09:17)

quote:

@zman Probably not because Ultimates aren't supposed to be a skill you only need at lvl 1 to be good with. A lvl 1 Massacre should not be better than any other lvl Ultimate yet it often is. Since the change in it, people have been investing more points into it which was supposed to be the case all along.

Well a lv 1 massacre is almost 1/3 of max (in terms of percent), while a lv 1 supercharge is more than half of the max AND it also ignores resistance and gives more health regeneration than bloodlust and that's just 1 skill which seems to be superior to a combination of 2.
Also bezerker at lv 1 is 45% when massacre at lv 1 is 50%, bezerker cost less but is blockable.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 13:19:28)

Well Isaiah, (reply to post on page 14) I just went with defences you gave me and tried to match it as close as possible. They could be stronger, especially PB which had a buff and I might be using outdated version of the sheet; one before TMs got adjusted. But PR should match what it is otherwise as PB is stronger by about 10 damage than before (same with Fireball).



JohnMenzies -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 13:19:50)

@Ashari, Please Read

Do you think that Making Blood lust from 23% at max to 25% is OP?

I don't I think it would make Blood Mages and Bounty Hunters Overpowered. It would give them that few points they need right when they lose by maybe 2 or 3 points of health.



Baron Dante -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 14:27:35)

zman: What, you are comparing the healing from SC to Bloodlust? Okay, SC may heal more. However... you know... SC isn't a passive.

Let's compare... you can use SC exactly once in a fight. It get's that 30% in. This takes place in turn 4. So, in 4 turns, you heal 1/4 of the damage of a single attack. Meanwhile, you get 4 turns of healing via Bloodlust (3 if you went first). Every turn it's 23%.

Let's say BH and SC can deal equal damage for the first 4 turns, with both max SC and BL. For all damage that BH deals, you heal 23%. However, TM has 3 turns where it doesn't heal at all. Let's say they deal 20ish damage a turn, and 60 on their SC/Massacre turn. That's a total of 120 damage. Out of this, BH heals 27,6 HP. TM heals... 18. That's... incredibly lackluster compared to the BL. The difference will keep growing after that turn.

So, really. Comparing BL (a passive) and SC (Not passive) doesn't work. At all.



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 14:32:43)

note: if ur a caster mage, u can also loose easily if u get critted 5 times in a row like i was.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 14:35:25)

@above Note: If you're any class, you can lose easily by getting critted 5 times in a row. Note: If every of your attacks get blocked in a battle and you don't block any of their attacks you can lose easily in a battle. Does anyone read the "No Luck Complaints" in the first post or do they decide to ignore and post about it anyways?



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 14:46:58)

►Cyber Hunter Suggestions◄

Post Reserve

*adding Trans nerfer skill in a short while*



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 14:52:09)

quote:

If you're any class, you can lose easily by getting critted 5 times in a row. Note: If every of your attacks get blocked in a battle and you don't block any of their attacks you can lose easily in a battle. Does anyone read the "No Luck Complaints" in the first post or do they decide to ignore and post about it anyways?

i never complained. i simply noted that u can loose by getting critted 5 times in a row.
even if u have the higher support over ur enemy.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 14:54:11)

@gold It's best to leave luck out of this thread altogether. Balance cannot be based upon luck and this is the Balance thread. With luck you can beat or be beaten by anyone. It proves nothing about balance.



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 14:55:45)

quote:

It's best to leave luck out of this thread altogether. Balance cannot be based upon luck and this is the Balance thread. With luck you can beat or be beaten by anyone. It proves nothing about balance.

balanced. right....

luck is balanced. ur right.
*gets triple critted by lower support yet again*



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 14:59:33)

Luck is not to be discussed in this thread, there's a rule on 1st page. Unless you're trying to be cool and break it, then carry on. ;)

Void, I might need to speak to you about Conduction; its scaling. :3



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 15:02:30)

@gold Did I ever say luck was balanced? No. I just said it has no place here in a thread about balance.



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 15:02:54)

quote:

Luck is not to be discussed in this thread, there's a rule on 1st page. Unless you're trying to be cool and break it, then carry on. ;)

it says no complaints about luck. it never says discussion about it.
i have talked about luck in a discussion manner and it was fine. as long as it wasn't a complaint.

quote:

Did I ever say luck was balanced? No. I just said it has no place here in a thread about balance.

so ur saying luck isn't deemed worthy of being discussed?
complaints aren't allowed. discussions are. people seem to be confusing discussion for complain. which isn't what was intended of my post.



Prime Assassin -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 15:08:46)

gold wasn't complaining about luck he clearly stated note: if ur a caster mage, u can also loose easily if u get critted 5 times in a row like i was



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 15:10:37)

@gold Instead of talking about how you lose all the time to lower levels with lower stats than you(which is pretty much complaining) how about you post numbers and record data instead? And I don't mean record the data of only one fight. I mean record the data from hundreds of battles.



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 15:16:16)

@ND Mallet Please explain how someone can record data and numbers from hundreds of fights?



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 15:17:24)

Pen and paper? ;D



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 15:17:45)

@mallet
first, i dont have anyone to help me do a massive test which i have been trying to do since challenges started to not count towards record.

secondly, even if i did give proof, and luck factors turned out to be happening to much when it wasn't needed, whos to say the devs will actually do something?

they get all these complains about luck, yet the testing team cant test it?
if the testing team dont test them. what makes u think the devs will do squat, if a player tested it?

quote:

Please explain how someone can record data and numbers from hundreds of fights?

i was thinking of finding a partner, someone who can stay here for countless hours testing 10,000 strikes. for blocks and crits.
aswell as gun in between to find out deflects.

and then just challenge each other all day, recording results.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 15:19:29)

@isaiah It's not complicated. Write down each time you use a blockable attack and compare the difference between your stats and calculate their chances of getting lucky compared to you. Example: I have 40 more dex than this person. I used 3 blockable moves in the battle. He blocked one of them. Repeat this over hundreds of battles and include criticals and deflections into the data.

@gold The Admins are less likely to do squat if you don't have any numbers to back up your arguments. I know one merc who got Atom Smasher buffed immediately after he posted a thread comparing a Str Build Merc against a tech EMP and proved Atom Smasher was severely UPd.



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 15:35:09)

quote:

The Admins are less likely to do squat if you don't have any numbers to back up your arguments. I know one merc who got Atom Smasher buffed immediately after he posted a thread comparing a Str Build Merc against a tech EMP and proved Atom Smasher was severely UPd.

right, except that comparison of EMP to atom, can be easier explain alot faster with just numbers.

i cant explain luck factors with just numbers. because i actually need to test it long term to see results.
and secondly, luck factor REAL info is something we have no access to.
just because they said 4% is the default doesn't exactly mean its always 4%. (by this, i mean we dont have access to real facts of the game, only whats posted on the wiki)

ill give u an example, when i played as SC TM using 117 dex, and fought str BMs, i never blocked a single BMs berserker (who all mostly used 62-66 dex) since using sc tm.
(and got hit by many of those causing me losses)

now when i use my tech tech mage for PB and PR, and uses 66 dex, i blocked 12 berserkers today by BMs with 62-66 dex.
how that makes sense for me to be blocking more with less dex, idk. but hopefully ill get enough help to test.



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 15:45:43)

quote:

@isaiah It's not complicated. Write down each time you use a blockable attack and compare the difference between your stats and calculate their chances of getting lucky compared to you. Example: I have 40 more dex than this person. I used 3 blockable moves in the battle. He blocked one of them. Repeat this over hundreds of battles and include criticals and deflections into the data.


So basically I need 50 sheets of paper. And need to have countless hours of constantly taking data from each and every battle that can take 2-5 minutes. I see....



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 15:50:25)

@isaiah Yep. You'll need to put time and effort into this.

@gold You can just do random 1vs1 battles as well. Just more work since you'll have to write down multiple stats instead of using the same ones against one person all the time.



Baron Dante -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 15:50:47)

@Is: No. No need for a single paper. That's what spreadsheets are for.

And really, if you have the time to fight, you have time to add the numbers during the fight as well. After which a spreadsheet will calculate everything for you.



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 16:37:07)

@Baron Dante Spreadsheets?



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/4/2012 16:56:29)

^ Excel or OpenOffice Spreadsheets, they contain grids and terminals to map out your information in a very organized fashion.



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