RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/10/2012 8:58:22)

I just wanna say I support enhancements 100%.

their are ways to balance the game without removing the biggest earner.



Oba -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/10/2012 9:04:09)

As this new bot will most likely kill, or destory the STR abusers, I really want to see more and new tactical skills on BM's. Now cant people say that we are OP becuase of our STR, so I dont see anything wrong with a new skill tree for them..



PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/10/2012 9:19:09)

just curious why you think that? the ability will work against any skill or attack, so all builds are effected.

and everyone knows BM's have one power build and need a skill tree change, just gotta wait for CHs to finish their 8 month reign.



Oba -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/10/2012 9:24:15)

^
quote:

This potent buff reflects a large portion of damage dealt by a melee attack back at the attacker. This will make high damage dealers think twice before trying to deliver that knockout punch!


"This will make high damage dealers think twice" - It will effect STR abusers most of all (atleast what I think) and BM's not have much else to bring other then STR.
And I have always, since I changed to BM, said that they need other more tactical skills. But everytime have someone said that they already are OP with their STR builds. As this PROBABLY will change now due this bot, BM's need other possibilities.
I also think this will destroy BH's. As STR is pretty much only the "good" build for them aswell.

I think this bot really will kill the game, as people not will have any strong attacks. Only very high defence's.
As I said, this is only what I think is gonna happen, as the bot not yet have been released.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/10/2012 9:24:33)

@Pivotal

It affects Melee skills, so when you hit with your primary or skill that uses is. So technically, not all builds.
I could agree about BMs skill tree change as long as it's for better and perhaps add new skills to make it less Str-based only. And CHs and 8 month reign? You meant TLMs and 8 months? As TLMs were for 8 months, CHs are for past 2 months IIRC.



Oba -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/10/2012 9:27:20)

quote:

I could agree about BMs skill tree change as long as it's for better and perhaps add new skills to make it less Str-based only.


And thats what I said. More tactical skills!



PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/10/2012 9:56:20)

@Trans: You didn't read my post properly.

I said "finish their 8 month reign"....I never said TLM or finished. I know what I meant, just you had issue with interpretation.


the robot special covers all melee skills, so that means

Strike
Double Strike
Intimidate
Berzerker
Maul
Cheap Shot
Venom Strike
Massacre [?]
Bludgeon
Malfunction
Assimilation
Frenzy
Static Charge

that's too many skills to really say that only strength builds are effected. also the new weapons promote strength builds.



Oba -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/10/2012 10:59:14)

I never said it will only effect STR users either. But it effect them more then, lets say tank users. As I dont know how much % of the dmg you deal is countered back on you, but lets say its 50%.

STR player - I use berserk, 40 dmg. I lose 20 hp.
Non-str player - I use berserk, 20 dmg. I lose 10 hp.

Yes. I think we can say that STR players will get effected most by this (which is good, really good, in one way..) but BM's dosent really have much else to use. I also think most players will use a tank build now because of this, and how much fun is it when everyone uses the same build...?



AQWPlayer -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/10/2012 11:20:40)

Lol I wonder if they're gonna bring back the fries and burgers thread :P



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/10/2012 11:40:23)

Some people have BMs skill tree confused.

I think there tree is GREAT and tactical the only thing they lack is a mana drain for it to be a perfect tactical class.


It is not that they have a lack of non STR skills, its just POWER BUILDS>BALANCED/STRATEGICAL BUILDS So you cant say the Balanced BM build doesnt work cuase they lack skills, It doesnt work because power builds destroy them so in a sence its there OWN str build is a large contributer for stopping the effectiveness of anything else they use.

You might argue that in some cases balanced builds are stronger BUT this is only the case IF the class has both a passive armour and an energy regain plus drain which both CHs and TLMs have allwoing them to used balanced builds in the form of tanks but even then they only JUST manage agianst the wrath of a powerbuild.

To say the BMs lacks skills to be a tactical class is like saying BHs do, BUT if you take your minds back to before the new classes and enahments so before extreme tank balanced builds and extreme powerbuilds, Focus BHs were actuly one of the best classes to go and IMO the focus BH and focus BM would be very similar, so if you FIX THE games roblem by reducing powerbuilds power and oped tank combinations by CHs and TLMs then what you will get is a massive amout of vairety and ALL classes being able to choose between watever build style they like.

I bet that if you took the blood mages class back in time to when focus Hunters rules BMs would have a GREAT tactical build that worked perfectly fine.
Il prove it, BH Blood lust=BMs Blood lust, BH relfex=BM relfex BH energy sheild=BMs Energy sheuld, BH shadow arts= BMs deadly aim, Intim would actuly be better then smoke for balanced tactical builds(most focus Hunters back then didnt even use smoke...), beserk rage possibilties, reflex and Supercharge combos. ETC.



Oba -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/10/2012 11:51:10)

In one way it is quite... "fine". Yet compared with CH and TLM I get slaughtered if I use a.. "tactical/balanced" build. Only way for me to survive against them is abusing STR, just as many other BM's do. BUT. As you say, if BM get a energy regain or drain skill it would be very much more effective, and alot of more creative builds would pop-up. This I have suggested ever since they took assimilation from BM. Yet people keep saying the same thing. "BM is OP". "Use STR". "BM with energy regain is OPPPP"... and so on. Surely it would be a pretty OP class with a energy regain and the current STR skills. And this is why I want the whole skill tree redone..



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/10/2012 12:30:38)

^Yes TLMs and CH dominate the focus/tactical build options forcing other classses to go STR build I completely agree with that whihc is why CH and TLMs need to have there passive armour removed AND STR/Powerbuilds need power reduced preferably released at the same time to avoid complaints of a diffrent set of oped builds.

But ultimately it would be the best thing the game could do for balance, I dont think STR builds should be destroyed I just think that when you have a STR build and a balanced build fight it should be smarts and staretgy that wins. If the game changes like this I will never complain on the forums again!!!

Plus Im sure many old great past players would return :)



Oba -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/10/2012 13:48:58)

So the new bots special DID reflect 50% dmg. LOL. I didnt they it was gonna be that high... yea, this is probably good for balance XD



Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/10/2012 13:57:32)

Just tested bot with a friend, if you have 1 HP and attack on a guy who has Thorns up, it WILL NOT kill you.



Oba -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/10/2012 14:05:52)

^ Thats good atleast... I think xD Imagine if both died, lol :P



AQWPlayer -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/10/2012 14:56:21)

^
No need to imagine. You can just go to AQW and apply super taster to a near-dead player.



Oba -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/10/2012 15:45:22)

^ Btw, the PvP on AQW is BS :P

As BM is a rather useless class have I now changed class to Merc and see if I can figure out some suggestions to improve it [:D]



TurkishIncubus -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/10/2012 16:00:40)

BH keeps getting more weaker every update [:D] If you still think BH dont need any buff just leave the balance thread cause you dont understand anything.

If Merc needs buff BH needs it more, You shouldnt count Shadow arts a Passive its Luck. BH and Merc are the only classes with 1 passive.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/10/2012 16:06:20)

@turkish You shouldn't count Reroute, Bloodlust or Mineral/Plasma armor as passives either because you may never hit the Mage or the BH may never hit or the opponent may not have any energy or physical attacks. All the passives are effected by luck. A critical or block will effect them all in some way or another. A crit on a mage may give him the energy to heal and beat you when you normally would've killed him with your next strong move.



TurkishIncubus -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/10/2012 17:42:32)

@ ND mallet

i will not read your posts again you steal my 30 sec everytime for nothing logical. Cause the way rerote effect from luck is equal to Shadow right?, I think you should copy some Developer's quote cause when you write your own opinion you always say something absurd.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/10/2012 17:45:30)

@turkish I'm just saying that everything in the game is affected by luck. You may have battles where you don't get any benefit from Bloodlust just like there will be battles where you don't get anything from Shadow Arts. Just because a skill isn't useful in any and all situations doesn't mean it is useless.



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/10/2012 17:54:49)

Just had a test on the new BioBorg on some BMs and STR builds. It works pretty well, and i dare say STR builds aren't that bad now, even if BioBorg comes. Especially to those who have bloodlust and frenzy. So i thought this was a great balance change and works for me, and hopefully for everyone else out there.

Now about BH and Merc being UP. Compared to other classes, yes their are quite weak, butt when you think about Bounties, their skill tree is very unique, they are not hindered in their skill tree, unlike tech mages. For example, for tech mage, you will need every skill to unlock the ones you need, so it is a tight skill tree. However bounties require BL and RB to make their skill tree come to life. I am actually glad, cause it makes retraining much easier. You could have max BL, SA and Smoke, and if that's not enough, you still have skill points left over. It just makes Bounty extremely unique, and I suggest the only problem is a lack of reliable/diverse builds. BH skill tree is based on STR, so we could try and make their BL improve with tech?

Then they could try out TECHNOLOGY build and have a PHY armor along with RB to compensate for their Dex. OR as many suggest, make SA a real passive, not by luck or chance.
And by improve with tech, i mean this:
Lv (%)
1. 3
2. 5
3. 7
4. 9
5. 11
6. 13
7. 16
8. 18
9. 19
M.21

Along with that, It will improve with tech in this way; 8 pts = add another 1% on. This is only a suggestion, so I could take some advice :)



Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/10/2012 17:55:34)

The new bot shouldn't do damage when massacre is used, Surgical Strike and Supercharge are ultimate moves and they aren't affected. So why should massacre be?
Also nearly every hunter skill is affected by it.
Not affected offensive skills:
Merc: Artillery strike, bunker buster, surgical strike (3)
TLM: toxic grenade, stun grenade, surgical strike, artillery strike (4)
TM: Plasma bolt, overload, plasma rain, supercharge (4)
BM: fireball, plasma cannon, supercharge, plasma rain, overload (5)
CH: multi shot, plasma grenade (2)
BH: multi shot, stun grenade (2)
See how unfair it is for hunters?

To fix it: Make massacre and cheapshot be exempt from it so they have 4, also allow mercenaries to use maul without penalty so all so the have 4 also. All classes excluding BM (which have 5) will have 4 skills that can be used without penalty.

Also BM have BL so when they are affected by it they don't lose as much health when compared to CH. You really can't say the same thing about BH because most of their skills are penalized by the bot.



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/10/2012 18:00:14)

Is that what happened? :O

That's quite unfair, oh wait no, it's because it only affects you if it's melee, but then again that is kinda not fair for hunters. I think this should be reported immediately to the staff to be dealt with.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/10/2012 18:23:38)

Possibility is making Massacre based on other Ultimate moves, so number based not %s. That means it'd be a skill, not an attack thus not affected by the Bot. They plan on brand new Ultimate moves for Evolved classes so BHs could get new one as well.
It'd be easy to make it good for BHs as well - Mercs rely on Tech, TMs rely on Dex so BHs could rely on Str to increase damage. Yes Str which can be abused quite a lot, but Ashari mentioned adding another dimnishing range at 110+ so perhaps this would balance it out to be able to use Str as a power-stat for Massacre. Also that means new Massacre could get 2 effects, just like SS and SC do - so perhaps along of EP regen based on damage, or ignoring defence, lowering rage, anything really! :D
I do realise it might have consequences but what threat would BHs prove with that? They don't have passive Armor, just BL and nerfer so nerfer + Ultimate could work just like for TMs which is fair.



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