RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 16:59:44)

@JZ It's not that the classes become unplayable, it's that the classes that get nerfed now require more thought to get those high win ratios people want. If they had the choice between an intelligent build that would take weeks to perfect and a mindless str build that takes minutes to make, most people choose the strength build. People class change mainly for the easy wins of being an OPd class or using an OPd build. You still play a TM and you know it's not a terrible class. You played it before and after the Heal Loop nerf and you still enjoy playing it. You're willing to stick with a class even if a build does get difficult to make. Few people nowadays do that anymore.



Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 17:10:13)

I don't get the excuse of "the new classes should be better than the old cause they cost money excuse." I'm a BH with full varium and I can change whenever I want, but I just enjoy being a BH.



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 17:15:18)

It isn't a excuse. Why the heck would you pay 50,000 credits or 900 varium be at the same level you where before?! That makes no sense at all. The new classes should be stronger then the ones not massively stronger but strong enough to the point that if a Tac Merc fights a Merc the Tac Merc has a better chance at winning.



Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 17:22:47)

For a preference? Also a tlm does have a better chance than a merc... actually a MUCH better chance for the record. Same thing with CH and BH. Can't speak for BM and TM since I haven't seen two of them fight.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 17:26:11)

I've never heard from Staff that evolved classes were made to dominate basic ones. One reason I recall is for a variety of skills, evolved =/= better. Logically thinking yes, but it's a game.
If you see in future all evolved classes having totally different skills to basic, but balanced then you still paid for variety.

quote:

[22:18:48] <Trans> Ashari I have one question regarding evolved classes - are BM/TLM/CH classes supposed to be equal to basic classes or slightly stronger (because they are evolved)?
[22:27:17] <Ashari> Equal

From IRC, asked only to answer your question Isaiah. You cannot discuss that, it's variety not power.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 17:27:17)

@isaiah What if I change from one of the original classes to another original class? Do I get a buff that only applies to myself? The evolved classes are supposed to better than their counterpart at something but loses out in something. Example: Mages aren't good at being offensive, BMs are. Mercs aren't good with energy for skills, TLMs are. They aren't supposed to be better classes, just different variations that are better at somethings.



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 17:36:14)

@Trans Wow. Then I guess I wasted my varium. I'm never changing class again.



Ashari -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 17:42:29)

^ I didn't think that would come as a surprise. It's not the first time I've said that evolved classes are not meant to overpower the original classes. They were added for more variety in combat and to break the rock-paper-scissors balance triangle that had formed between Mercenaries, Bounty Hunters and Tech Mages.

They still are a bit too similar to their original classes in some respects, but making new skills is a time consuming process. Ideally, they would be sharing fewer of the original class' skills.



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 17:48:56)

^I don't recall ever hearing that otherwise I wouldn't have changed class. Besides when do you guys plan on fixing this issue? You destroyed us TLMs. I lose to every freaking TM,BM, and CH I run into. CH is still OP. And now TM and BM have created brand new OP tech spam builds that kills me in about 3 turns. Now those the classes are on top. With BH being the only balanced class and TLM and Merc being on the bottom. And I can't even freaking class change because not enough creds or var. I said I wouldn't class change again but I might have too I just keep losing battle after battle after battle. You killed us.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 17:51:43)

OPed Spam build for TMs? You mean Caster? That one is around since Alpha even, it was best setup until SC just like it is now.
And btw, Tech improves only Plasma Cannon for BMs, IIRC. How does that kill you? Think of other build, you knew TLM is OPed and changed anyway.



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 18:03:15)

@Trans Actually it improves Plasma Rain too. Their is no other build I can do. I'm a STR TLM and now we are dead. I'm just gonna have to stop playing soon and wait until we get buffed back to normal standard again. Because right now we are dead.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 18:08:21)

Str + Poison works, made 2 of these builds. Buffs? Like? If you hope for getting a debuff then keep dreaming.
Standard you say? That standard is already here, CHs and TLMs were doing above it.
Use creativity, build doesn't end on Smoke. There's Multi, Poison, SS or custom one of your choice.



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 18:16:27)

@Trans I meant to make us balanced. At least allowing us to compete now when we go into 1vs1 if we fight a CH,TM,BM, or BH(if they block) its instant K.O. We only stand a chance against BHs(If they don't block) or Mercs. If their one of those lvl 34 full var spamming CHs,TMs,or BMs we are so dead.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 18:19:17)

@isaiah The whole "My class is useless ever since the nerf" excuse has been heard every time a balance change rolls around. If that were true, then every class would be useless because they all have been nerfed in one way or another.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 18:24:18)

@Isaiah
Hmm, non-Varium player. See the problem there is not the class now but enhancements, you can't argue the class is crap if my Lvl 29 TLM (non-Varium, although managed to get Varium Armor) owned Lvl 33 non-Varium Merc with Poison build by simply using it twice during the battle, Strike/Gun/Aux and didn't heal even once. That's a non-Varium fight and I ended up raging twice but getting deflected twice as well, finished with about 10 HP left.
You can't say class is worse now because this was clearly non-Varium fight, maybe not fully but you should get my point. If I go by you saying full-Varium classes are OP'ed then I'll agree if I play on my alts, but problem will be with enhancements not class itself. You cannot blame class for that as if you did, it'd either cripple other classes so Varium players get most out of it or buff them up to standard where you get good damage and 'Variumers' even higher. Not fair right?

If you want Smoke back, it can be done but pick which skill is going to be taken out for it: Reroute or Mineral Armor? Either of them has to go so you can have Smoke back. Classes have 2 out of 3 of these skills - Debuff, Energy/Health Regen, passive Armor. TLMs have Reroute and Mineral, so no debuff. CHs have 2 as well but some kind of Energy regen so that's why we're suggesting old CH skill-tree and new type of Malf to make them unique. If you want, PM me, and I'll make you a build that could work so you don't waste Credits. Give me your prefered equipment, maybe Credits for new if needed and I can try to make you one that should suffice after Smoke loss. If my TLM being Lvl 29 and having to fight same range of players as you do can compete, although harder at higher Lvl but near mine (up to 2 above) I can compete quite well and sometimes win against Varium players. Tough luck but happens.



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 18:29:20)

@Trans I guess part of that is true. But before I was able to still compete and beat some varium players. Now its back to if you see a var player in battle (unless they are the same class,merc, or BH) you are instant K.O. CHs are in the same scenario as us therefore they should lose malfunction. Its definatly not fair.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 18:35:43)

That's why Isaiah, on previous page, I suggested with Void return of old CHs. No Plasma Armor but Technican and old SC as it was wine without Plasma. Then they can keep Malf (or Conduction, which in my opinion suits them better; consider not just -Res but what Tech does itself) and we suggested Mineral to be gone and replaced with current HA of Mercs to balance it out even further. At first I though change is wrong for my Merc but it's fine, you can use E or P Armor with it and go for Dex or Tech more depending on Armor.
HA might weaken you but FC will be getting a buff when they get to balancing of Mercs, don't forget that. People suggested to make it passive similar to DA but not Guns but peraps Aux instead, or bonus given from it wouldn't be just Str but perhaps Support too so you get something out of it even not as Str build, and you can suggest yourself as they haven't got it all finalised yet.



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 18:41:51)

Loving this too much know players know how the players playing the Blood Mage feels that they don't have a debuff to help increase damage, you now have to rely on stats and enhancements to get power. The mage Plasma Rain is the weakest of all the multis unless the opponents have very weak resistance, they get malfunctioned, or have a total tech of 154+ and with the requirements only ones that can get that is the ones that hold weapons with no requirements.

I have been trying to improve the Blood Mage class but all of you spoke against me but was calling for constant nerfs you got what you wanted so why complain, Like you tell the Blood Mages find the right build and stop complaining.

Now to balance things even further, the Cyber Hunters need to loose malfunction, that is a tech mage skill, not a hunter skill and they too should not be able to have something that increases damage.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 18:46:43)

@hun We are not shooting down buffs to BM. We are shooting down your ideas on how to buff them. If it were left to you, BMs would be more powerful than either CHs or TLMs used to be. I'm doing just fine as a BM and say we don't any more buffs to Zerker, Bloodlust, Deadly Aim or Fireball. And they don't need Malf, Smokescreen or Field Commander either. If you want those skills, play 2vs2 then.



Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 18:50:15)

@ ND

I still think they should regain Assimilate...

@ Hun

There is a difference between buffing a class, and making a class rediculously Overpowered



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 18:53:29)

@Trans Well Idk as I've heard many people say CHs were UP before Plasma Armor so I don't know how that would work out. If they are gonna keep things this way fine. But remove CHs malfunction they are just too powerful with it. @ Hun Kingq First why is plasma rain the weakest of all multis? Besides we were not trying to shoot down BMs we were disagreeing with your ideas as they would make BMs OP. Don't think you speak for all BMs.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 18:58:29)

@Isaiah
They were saying it's UP'ed because majority of players were TLMs which before the change were truly OP'ed. And that was times before Frenzy was changed, before Technican got swapped for BS and before Smoke was gone. See the difference now? They will be like TM version of BHs but a bit different. Passive Armors should be Merc-exclusive, that's why I want HA for TLMs as well and no other class should have them as it's best thing to do.

Hun, all Multis are the same.. Besides like others said, BMs are doing fine - glass cannon is definition of this build. It's mostly Str-oriented but other builds do work with right skill combination. Look at buffing BMs from other perspective, not that you're getting the buff but how that affects other players.



nico0las -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 19:00:55)

Someone needs to fix support.
It's not possible that when I have a 5 focus build with 76 support I'm going second to BMs and CHs that can barely breach 40.
Not only that, but I rarely go first against 34s, but I go first ALWAYS against lower levels. It's almost like it's backwards.
Also, do add insult to injury, I am hit by critical hits and stunned incessantly. It is beyond irritating. I'm honestly considering abandoning
TM to a class that actually GOES FIRST AND IS NOT CONSTANTLY HIT BY CRITS. Plus, I actually get more stuns off my stun blaster than overload. I've gotten eight
sidearm stuns today, but only one overload stun.
One last thing, I have 106 dexterity, and yet I was blocked three consecutive times by a BM with 63 dexterity.
I find it very difficult to have hope in investing into a stat if it rarely works. That would explain why there are so many strength builds.
Why? Because strength always works. It's not a MAYBE, it's a guarantee. Strength WILL raise your damage, no matter what.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 19:08:25)

@above
quote:

No "luck" complaints - This thread is not a place to complain about an unlucky streak that caused you to lose a match. Please remember that while luck may seem to favor or disfavor you in the short run, over the long run it does average out.

Go ahead and change classes, you'll still be just as unlucky as you are. There are no guarantees you won't get blocked or critted, even if you have 300 more stats than your opponent.



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 19:09:18)

The ND Mallet Guy, It is quite clear I play in 2vs2 with 5320 wins sometimes by myself so I am playing in 2vs2, My ideas wa not to buff the skills that the Blood Mage has, DO YOU NOT GET THAT BY NOW, but to have new unique unlinked skills from the other class but the Tech Mage class. The Blood Mage is the evolved aggressive version of the tech mage, not the bounty hunter and not the merc. Just because you like one build and don't want to see improvements to the Blood Mage Class, maybe it is because you will change to a Hunter or a merc class in the future or that you have alternates that are Cyber Hunters or Tact mercs, but other Blood Mages, Cyber Hunters, and tact mercs support my ideas because it would bring true balance to the Class without nerfing any other classes. My ideas would not give extra power to the Blood mage class they would have the same power but would have to balance the stats out.

Recent idea: a multi that does plasma rain and fire storm, for this to be effective you have to have a balance between strength and tech, again, a balance between strength and tech, because everyone could not understand before it was even programed and tested everyone claimed it was overpowered.

If Plasma Rain was stronger more Blood Mages would use it in 2vs2, but they don't do you and why not?



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