RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 6:54:41)

1. Reroute and better Mineral Armor (not spread out) is totally worse than Merc. Especially with FC having a revamp sometime as it's weak for Mercs as well. It's all about variety, not having stronger skills. New classes =/= stronger.

2. Against game rules? It's Devs, they MADE the game and they set the rules..? o_O Going by that, I want BHs to have Diamond Blades back and old SC to TMs as it was very weak before then. [/sarcasm]



Digital X -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 7:19:29)

@Thedragonkiller, even with TLM's not having Smokescreen any more there is still a significant difference between Merc and TLM, one skill change will not render them as bad as it may see or fell. Re route being TLM's best Passive out of the two gives it a much greater advantage over Merc still, even though Mineral Armour provides more defense, the ability to passively regain MP on being hit is much more favourable due to the different amount of skills TLM still possesses.Say you get hit hard enough and regain 15mp, that there could be nearly enough for a Stun Grenade, or 4 skill points worth on Frenzy.

Due to the loss smoke i have invested in a few points on Atom Smash, as well as Frenzy and i am still doing quite fine. Now observing how the battles go is obviously going to be different from before. A majority of the battles are slower without smoke screen but that can be countered back by putting the points you would have had onto another skill. Atom Smash and Frenzy together in a skill tree is something i have not used together before, especially with this many skill points on them, and it is paying off.

I was too used to having high smoke i would not use hardly any other skills but with a bit of thinking, planning and creativity i have created a somewhat decent build without the aid of a nerfing skill.



The Anonymous -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 9:13:34)

Hi guys,

My point is not saying which class is stronger or what skill is most helpful. The Key is VARIETY.

What I trying to say is about the SIMILARITY between Merc and TLM with Field Commander.

Looking forward to hearing more comments. [:D]

People can read normal-sized text just fine. Please try to keep the use of large font sizes restricted as they can be an eye sore. ~LB



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 9:18:19)

By that, I can say they are even more similar as they have Double Strike, SS, Blood Shield, Multi. xD Besides Blood Shield will be unique skill to TLMs in some time, Mercs will be losing it for new unique still to improve them. FC will be getting a boost, where's the problem? After BS is unique to TLMs, that leaves 3 skills that are from Merc class and DS must be there, SS too as it's Ultimate skill, and lastly Multi too.
Mercs ain't got debuff nor Energy regen yet it's a problem because TLM hasn't got Energy regen? Remember Hybrid is cut in half for Res and Def, while Mineral is just for Def (and more) and you can defend better against Energy using E Armor more efficiently.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 9:39:15)

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quote:

Isaiah said:

This new update has made balance even worst. Now CH and BH are on top. Because TLMs can't even hit them now. With their high dex,shadow arts, and smoke screen we can't touch them.


Balance for CH: edging on the use of Strength even more. I can tell that CH will be the top dog because right now everyone chooses to fight with their Primary and Sidearm, TacM does fall behind BH and CH in the art of melee due to the wane of power and accuracy in attacks. My condolences go out to any TacM who still attempts battles purely in melee, as accuracy becomes a larger portion of your strategy. CH is slightly ahead of BH due to the conflict of Malfunction VS. Smokescreen, and Plasma Armour VS. Bloodlust. I can tell you all that CH is shifting into the next TacM. This must be stopped.

quote:

Zman said:

Since TLM don't have SS anymore why don't we add the 10% to multi again? Mercs will be stronger.


All mercenaries will be stronger, so TacM and M have more of an advantage in Support. This is fine for M, but for TacM 10% Defense ignore compensates some of the need for Smokescreen. It will then be comparable to half of a Smokescreen and a whole Artillery in one. This also saves energy. Instead of making Support the trump card of Strength, why do we not work on upgrading Technology... and Dexterity? I also believe that Focus should take a nerf.

quote:

TheArtofRuin said:

How is it balanced that Tactical Mercenaries are now unable to use smoke screen? Tactical merc players (such as myself) are going to get destroyed by the classes that still have smoke screen and malfunction. I spent forever getting my build just right to incorporate smoke screen into my strategy. Ridiculous.

and why all of a sudden so drastically change this single class? Without telling anybody first?


TacM are known for abusing each of their Strike attacks with the help of Smokescreen for cheap damage and the recklessness of health management because they do output large amounts of damage. In removing Smokescreen, which made each of their Strike attacks more powerful and accurate, the reckless barrage of offense comes to a halt. You were not informed by this balance update because the staff who's job it is to fix said problems work in isolation to constantly monitor every player. Simply because you were having difficulties, would not be justifiable to say that other TacM were having issues as well.

quote:


TheArtofRuin said:

You brought up mineral armor quite a bit there...it's called, energy weapons

People want to nerf everything. If the developers and whatnot listened to every complaint, they have nerfed everything, brought it back twice and nerfed it again.

Everything was fine the way it was


It matters not what choice of damage element is used against TacM. If you hit them with Physical, they take less damage, and their Reroute restores less energy. If you hit them with Energy, they take more damage, and their Reroute restores more energy. It is a vicious cycle. If things were fine and ecstatic, we would not being making said balance changes.


quote:

Arevero said:

As a all-time fan of cyber hunters, the class was totally fitting my style of playing, and my meaning of 'fun'. Until the buff to CH of plasma armor (PA), we as cybers were left to fend for ourselves with our weak skills and our feebleness. Then when we received PA, we finally got a piece of recognition as our long-time suffering. (Some of you may say I'm being dramatic)

We played more, enjoyed ED more than ever, and for once our class wasn't at the bottom list of classes. I, as a Cyber totally appreciated the new skill added to us. Although it was a big change in ED history, we cybers were OP, and I'm sorry for that. But now our static, our biggest skill that differed us, made us different, unique, is NERFED. From 44% to 29% i am completely shocked. It renders static almost useless(about a common regain of 15 energy), so what can 15 energy do??? Utterly nothing except for a cheap shot. I'm not whinging about this, but that's too much of a change to us. We could lose PA and have technician back, but not static. As a Cyber with 29% regain, we are less fun to play with, and makes our games less exciting. I'm saying this to hopefully make our unique skill back where it belongs. Take alway PA if needed, not static, thank you.


Points: - Keep Static Charge but have it fixed - Plasma Armour is causing issues (just look at what was done to Hybrid Armour and Mineral Armour) - The energy costs require you to have excessive Strength - Plasma Armour's resistance bonus can be replaced by an active skill

I support you sir!

quote:

Lord Aegis said:

^or just replace PA with Energy Shield .


Thank you! For using one of my points.

quote:

Arevero said:

But with energy shield we also have DEF Matrix. ??? That would be weird for the class, technician would be the best option.


I have contemplated whether Energy Shield or Technician would be more suitable to CH before. In the end I chose Energy Shield because of this reasoning: CH lack the defense to withstand a damage barrage. Technician does not provide as much Resistance as Energy Shield. Technician supports the use of Focus CH. The class still possesses Malfunction, in turn this could offset the balance of defense/offense between other classes of the Focus brand, who's robots would do noticeably lesser damage. Energy Shield does not touch robots, therefor it would be the optimal defense to protect from excessive damage and balance Focus builds.

quote:

Joe said:

Wow. Nerf so OP, 44 -> 29 percent, that's way too much.

I'd say it wasn't OP at all to begin with.

My idea:

Replace Static with Re-Route (Cybers, right?)

Replace Reroute on Mages with Static (maybe?)

Replace Malfunction with, say Reflex Boost?


3 classes will have Reroute. This would be redundant, nonetheless an attack on diverse skillsets. IF you recommended that the skill trees be extended to house more skills, this would be acceptable to grant more options. Mages have Assimilation. Assimilation and Static Charge have monotonous cooldowns. Tech mages will be required to have more Strength and Dexterity in their builds to be able to administer enough energy restoration. This employs the use of Strength even further, something to avoid. I would replace Malfunction with Energy Shield. :P

quote:

Drinde said:

Static Charge:
-Boost to 35% Regain.

Cheapshot:
-Replaced with new skill (Recalibrate)

Plasma Armor:
-Changed to BloodShield

Recalibrate:
-Physical
-Fixed DMG Attack
-Improves with Support
-20% Defense Ignore
-30% HP Regain


Static Charge could use the older, higher values for energy restoration... supported. Recalibrate has that one function to restore health, this I do not promote. Endless healing is already an issue, so tanks builds are further promoted into Focus. Drinde! Please design an attack skill to replace Plasma Grenade and have it scale with Technology! I will be more likely to support that! Good work though!

quote:

Arevero said:

Above all, Cybers should return to their original skill types, even if it means PA takeaway, and as a lot others have been saying, 'Passive RES/DEF makes us no more better than TLMs".

I'm happy with this original skill tree idea:

Heal Cheap EMP

Tech Static Matrix

Multi Malf Poison

PG Mass SA

Although i have 1 request, if we go back to that skill tree, i would also expect original skill types; static=55%

And if it's not a lot to ask (OPTIONAL) If we could have Mass back on its original percentage, its currently on 50%
Used to be 86% i think.


This is the skilltree from long ago. It was a good skilltree. Supported.



aomont -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 9:48:52)

Folks... facts we are failling to see and it seems this may be holding some of us back for so long.

Completely balanced game between classes is an utopic reality.
Balance must be seeked, that's for sure, and I think developers are doing this. However it IS slow so they do not create bigger problems (although it can still happen once in a while, real people make mistakes but they can/should always be undone later). Balance changes will always make part of the community unhappy, specially the once stronger classes but also the "colaterally damaged classes".
It is an ongoing process and some unbalance will always be around unless we had only one class and same weapons, skills, armors... but what would be the point ?
Everytime there are changes in our lives (changes not controlled by us) it is common to take them negatively at first, it is So human to do this. If we from all classes take balance changes as challenges, game would be more interesting and life more fun.
@JZaanu: I support sticking to the class to increase the challenge (I'm doing this) but I'm not sure that should be imposed.
Also support that part of the balance tracker be open to the community, mainly the % wins for each class alone and/or over the others in each kind of game (1v1, 2v2, jugg). This way we can see how the balance is doing as well as check if our builds are above/below average. Sometimes we lose because our builds are poor, not our class.

Old time game scenario will not replace the current one.
Plain and simple as that. We tend to think that what we had previously is always better but when we have a chance to go back we commonly see we were wrong. So live to the challenge of "getting old in the new world".

Enhacement may never disapear.
Enhancement = money OR Enhancement = game hours.
If you are a F2P, nothing more fair than ask game hours from you. If you are P2P you have the extra chance of enhancing items but may also need to dedicate game hours to enhance everything unless your pockets are deeper than mine and that's your call.
Real people need money to live and AE people are not different (I guess :D) and need to get real money from the real job. We are here to have fun but they are here to earn money to live their real lives. Is that difficult to get ?

F2P will never be the SAME as P2P.
They may get close but not the same as this difference encourage people moving from F2P to P2P.
Unless AE start relying on adds, money will need to come from P2P and the game needs to be more attractive to them. Making the difference only time won't work, I bet.
F2P must realize the game is free for them and also adds free because of P2P, so better items will always be there.
P2P must realize the diversity in the game increases when we have P2P AND F2P duelling as a couple of levels lower items ask for different strategies sometimes, so they shouldn't cry when the difference gets smaller at times (ex: Assault bot x rusted).
And REALLY people, if you once in a lifetime buy a varium pack you'll have varium for a set of 4 items (armour/side/aux/primary), or even get some of them included, as well as a good amount of credits to help you, and you'll still have varium left for a few enhancement...
If you choose not to buy, no problem, but that's the share of challenge you accepted in your game life. ;)



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 11:28:27)

^ If you were discussing Balance within 12 hours from now, I may have discussed your topics 2 posts above.
^



sleddyboy3 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 11:39:34)

I've just been screwed over...big time.

Sure, some of my fellow TLM's were using the smoke loop, but now we're completely useless.

This is obviously a ploy to get more people to buy varium and switch class -.-



PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 11:46:49)

lol Depressed, getting a bit desperate for people to read your posts?

ON TOPIC
Plasma Armor and Mineral Armor killed 2 classes and still the staff can't see it....
TLM and CH would be tons of fun but still balanced if they didn't have those passives, and had Smoke Screen and the un-nerfed Static Charge.

I just don't get it. can we at least have an answer why passive armors are the better option.

CAN WE HEAR THE REASONING BEHIND THE DECISION PLEASE



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 11:50:39)

This balance update destroyed us TLMs. This is what the list is now from the strongest to the weakest. CHs > BHs > BMs >= TLMs > TMs > Mercs. CHs still OP. And now BH is the only class that can contend with them. TLMs are officially at the bottom. This update has failed epicly. TLMs no longer have any debuff skills and we have the weakest buff skill of them all. You call this balance?!



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 12:05:04)

quote:

lol Depressed, getting a bit desperate for people to read your posts?


All I need is enough reason and determination for the Balance/Testing Team to read my posts until they occur.

[8D][;)][8D]



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 12:12:16)

@sleddyboy3 Agreed. Honestly the devs could not possibly be serious about this. How on Earth is making TLMs the only class without a debuff skill and giving us the weakest buff skill balance? This must have been done to make everyone flee to CH and BH and start class changing that way that's fast money for them. This update has really annoyed me.



aomont -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 12:41:19)

Hey D. Void was this for me ?
"If you were discussing Balance within 12 hours from now, I may have discussed your topics 2 posts above."
I think your reasoning on battle strategies are good and exactly how balance changes should be faced. Thumbs up.

I just don't find the general "my class is doomed" complain useful. I would feel challenged and would stick to the class to try different builds and then point possible present OPed classes. This rather than find an easy way out through class change while complaining.
Opened balance tracker would help set our minds at easy, I believe.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 13:00:00)

^ Sorry about the arrows, I meant my quote for anyone who spoke in the Balance Discussion for when I was sleeping. I am only 50% complaining. The balances updates are empowering the ongoing issue, Strength mastery. The Static Charge update literally forced my build to change from 12 base Strength damage (+34 from Primary), to 22 base Strength damage (+34 from Primary).

I honestly wish the best for everyone, and the balance updates are currently hurting innovation. I wish to be heard. That is all.



aomont -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 13:22:52)

Got it now Void !
Agreed, STR builds everywhere.
Although a BM, I'm trying my life without one. Let's see how far I can get.



Oliver Bell -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 14:27:58)

I have to admit this latest change has made me consider changing classes. When I chose to become a tactical merc it was because the class had a useful debuss, intimidate has never been useful in my eyes; maul, one of my favorite skills at the time, hybrid armor and finally surgical strike. After all these nerfs the skill set just seems disjointed, there don't seem to be any combinations that work well anymore. It was bad enough when maul was replaced and blood shield was added, another skill which I have never found much use for. the energy regain from re-route is useful but without a good set of skills to use it on it becomes slightly pointless, except for healing.

I agree that it needed nerfing but this just wasn't the way to do it.



steven11113 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 15:13:59)

29% at lvl 10 is too low[:(] I DECIDED TO INCREASE BY 5-8% PER LVL SO 19% AT LVL 1 AND 37% AT LVL 10

I use to do Malfuction, static charge, cheap shot and massacre
Now i have to do this now: malfuction, static charge, strike then massacre
so i decided to use tank sword build. I have to lower half to lvl 3 AND FEDIC MEDIC TO LVL 2 JUST TO MAKE IT A LOOP.

SUPER CHARGE IS OP NOW AND NEEDED TO BE NERF FROM 2 MORE DAMAGE PER LEVEL INVESTMENT (DOWN FROM 3)




Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 15:15:32)

Okay guys, time for me to take my say. :D With help of Void, we got some ideas how to fix classes and believe is good - it's mainly CHs and TLMs but let me explain it to you. Beware, it's a LONG post. ;)

Passive Armors - only classes who should have them is Mercs and TLMs; they are unique for them only

TLMs were OP'ed for long time, got their nerf and they are balanced so far but are you sure? It has passive Armor and Energy regen which is fine, but passive Armor seems to kinda make it still a bit strong with their skill tree. One suggestion for them is taking out Mineral Armor competely and replacing with current Hybrid Armor of Mercs. Why should TLMs get brand new Armor while Mercs have old one? All evolved classes have first tier of skills the same (but CH with EMP, not my point) and making it +6 Def and Res would be perfect for TLMs and would balance them out even further.
You will say it's a nerf. No! FC is useless right? It will be revamped once they get to Merc class and also work on Intimidate which is a buff to BMs as well which they need a bit. Once FC is fixed, TLMs will be even further balanced.
Now BS is useless right guys? It will stay there due to having Reroute and passive Armor which is great for Tanking, so HP cost is not a problem if you can Tank and have Energy regen. Also it works for 5 turns, as opposed to other skills which work only for 4 or 3. Liking it so far?

Now CHs! Firstly I'll suggest new skill tree, not much different and people will like it: 

Heal  - Cheap  - EMP
Tech  - Static - Matrix
Multi - Condu  - Venom
Stun  - Mass   - SA


Matrix and Energy Shield both improve with Support so I suggest using good ol' Technican again which was great before. TMs have it that way and it works great, no reason why CH couldn't.
Static Charge returned to former glory, before all the nerfs to it but ignoring defences just like it should.
Stun Grenade is same as they have now, not BH's version.

Conduction is new skill replacing Malf. Malf and Multi provide great synergy with their Skill Tree already which is why I decided to change it slightly, original idea was mine but Void gladly helped me to improve it which is great! :D
Conduction affects only Resistance alone, not Tech which affects deflection rate and skills, which give CHs a great advantage in fight. Also why can't CH be unique and have new skill as well? Here's how it works:

Level 1: Reduce Target's Resistance by 1 Point.
Level 2: Reduce Target's Resistance by 3 Point.
Level 3: Reduce Target's Resistance by 5 Point.
Level 4: Reduce Target's Resistance by 7 Point.
Level 5: Reduce Target's Resistance by 9 Point.
Level 6: Reduce Target's Resistance by 10 Point.
Level 7: Reduce Target's Resistance by 11 Point.
Level 8: Reduce Target's Resistance by 12 Point.
Level 9: Reduce Target's Resistance by 13 Point.
Level 10: Reduce Target's Resistance by 14 Point.

It does NOT improve with any skill, these are fixed rates. You will argue it's weaker than Malf as it doesn't affect stats but -14 Res is equal to about 56-60 Tech which is a lot more than Malf which requires very high (abusive) Support build and also maxed.

You know people why CH were underpowered before? Because TLM was too strong and every class felt that way, now see what happened because of it? If TLM is balanced, surely old CH can do as good now?
What I suggested here is how to fix classes and bring them to balance. Some great suggestions of Void for example should also be considered in later stages of the game to make evolved classes even more unique and fun to play. Basic classes will also feel unique as they will have their own skills or maybe get revamps as well.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 15:41:40)

^ This message has been approved by my standards.

~Dep. Vo



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 16:17:31)

@Trans Giving us TLMs Hybrid Armor would destroy us. We would die and ceast to exist like almost all Mercs at high levels. As for the thing about CHs heck no. That would make them even more OP -14 resistence on your opponent. No thanks.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 16:19:54)

@Isaiah,

I can go over the Resistance nerfer for you and hopefully I can have you convinced.

-Remove Plasma Armour
-Remove Malfunction
-Remove Plasma Grenade
-Remove Cheap Shot
-Remove Shadow Arts

The class now lacks protection, a route for Strength CH and Tank CH to increase offense by removing Malfunction, also preventing Malfunction-loop with Static Charge (overpowered), reduces the luck factor in removal of the Plasma Grenade, Shadow Arts, and Cheap Shot.

-Add Conduction
-Add Plasma Aura
-Add Cyber Arts
-Add Blue Ruin
-Add Energy Shield

The class now has a means of defending from both types of attacks (Physical and Energy), both of which costs energy and a whole turn (Cyber Hunters would not mind), Conduction... which does not reduce the power of other skills in only reducing Resistance, and does not touch deflections, allowing Strength builds that the CH fight to be at full capacity, Plasma Aura is a tactical passive to threaten Strength users who try to use their Primary spam against you, Sidearms (something Strength builds have power in) are an asset in avoiding Plasma Aura, Blue Ruin, a balanced attack skill aside from Cheap Shot which is underpowered.

EDITING later, I have to goooooooooooooooooooooooo



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 16:23:09)

@Isaiah
Is that so? Mercs were already UP'ed before Hybrid Armor was changed (and could be swapped to Energy). Halving was good change in the end. And reason why Mineral should stay as it is? It proved to be bad for Mercs as players wanted it to be halved so TLM can have same skills on first tier as original classes, no exceptions. *CHs have EMP in different place but doesn't matter*
-14 Res at Lvl 10, right. That's just Res. My Malf on TM takes away -48 Tech, that's 11-12 Resistance already at just Lvl 7, so will be 13 easily when maxed while it also affects Deflection, skills. And surely without Plasma, that tanking and Conduction will not be strong because more you put into one skill, the more you neglect others; maxed Conduction, near maxed Static and you get about 16 points left at Lvl 34. Now consider defence, heal, perhaps Massacre or SA and requirements.



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 16:26:23)

@Steven11113
I agree with Steven, none of this was necessary, regardless of our Cyber's str builds, SC is their primary skill, its what makes CH different from the rest of the classes, i wouldn't



complain much, but all I'm saying is that we could possibly avoided this SC nerf if we didn't add PA in the first place.

As a Hunter in my entire time in ED, Cyber totally fitted my play-style, but it's now getting boring at the new balance changes, so i have no other classes to attend to now.

I'm happy if Cyber will go back to it's original type, with technician and SC 55% and Mass on 86%, IF all else fails in protecting out primary attribute; Static Charge.

If this is the main reason why SC is getting nerfed( due to lower levels receiving too much energy in their battles) then we should make lvl 1 SC weaker(10-15%) and then once it gets up to max in full effectiveness, and to make it fair for us Cybers(even at the cost of taking away PA) we should put it at 44% on max still. And reduce it more when its not maxed out.

This is only a suggestion if that was the case/cause of the latest Cyber Hunter nerf.




Elf Priest JZaanu -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 16:46:01)

I do appreciate the few responses, but remember, this is not a social game. It is a game based on pvp. For a game to be balanced, the class demographics should represent that balance. If segment of players feel the need to class change, because their ability has been compromised in competing, then this upsets the game demographic balance. This is not about individual personal choices, but when an large portion makes the same personal choice at the same time, it upsets the balance both competitively and communal community. Our real world is a great example; this is a great guide to understand why society and our living world needs balance.

If these changes are not made, all balance adjustments will only be superficial. And being superficial, the continued shifting will be a never ending cycle.

As much as I discussed about the game taking responsibility, I also feel the players should also expect more balance in terms of pvp and features beyond pvp. Enjoy to compete, and not Enjoy the advantage to dominate. When the game offers more non-pvp items/events, I do hope my fellow peers will invest and support it.

For people not understanding this broader general balance, do review my previous posts.

http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=20126747

http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=20127314







Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/3/2012 16:53:38)

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