RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/22/2012 23:12:10)

That is why we are taking out PA for something less powerful, the whole time we are trying to nerf it while also buffing it to keep it intact. And when you 'think' other classes do not have much of a chance against a Cyber, do you mean that from individual/personal experience or as a voice from a majority. As a Cyber i have fought other classes, and it isn't all that easy. It is only pathetic when Cyber's do massive tanking which ruins all meaning of fun. And currently i have a STR build to get the most out o SC which is why SC needs a buff, PA needs to be taken out, and SA buffed/changing to DA.

In fact TLM tanks the hardest, and Merc can tank quite a bit too. And may i ask you, are you a Cyber? Because Cyber may seem a powerful class, but it isn't when you have to invest points into SC and PA which takes away a lot of skill pts and builds as Rayniedays has said. And prior to what Joe posted PA needs to be taken out as all CHs agree.

Last of all, against BM we cannot Heal loop that well. They can go offensive full on and we must have at least lv4 heal with 2 boosters. They also have bloodlust which heal themselves whilst giving hell-bending dmg output. Even if we do heal, they keep coming, and healing takes a turn.

As well as that i have seen BMs get the most Blocks and deflects. Maybe i am the only one seeing this but against all BMs, they Rage faster, block more. deflect more and CRIT more than me. I'm serious, a lv30 just crit zerk me, almost killed me, and they also crit a lot on fireball, while blocking my statics soemtimes and also deflecting my rage gun.

And all i'm saying is the truth. So Cyber isn't all that powerful, in fact only those abusers of tanking/ EMP are the ones destroying the class.

Enough is said about Cybers now, it is time for 'Balance' Team to make some action after so long.



Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/23/2012 0:22:59)

Personally I dont see how emp is OP, but mahbe kuz ive been a hunter since the beginning.

Really, emp takes away 30 EP...okay that sounds like alot but when I go into battle againt say a bm with 80 ep, he can still rage fireball me even if I emp him and stuff. I dont think emp is that bad even, I get empd, and I emp them back, but the main thing is that ppl have lots of ep anyway, and if we emp, its like a free strike on us and stuff. personally I dont see.how terribly OP it is. Even if I emp multiple times against a CH, TM, TlM,its still a hard fight since they have alot of ep.

Again, not terribly sure if it really is that op,, just maybe slightly op at best, unless you can convince me why its very op...



od -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/23/2012 0:44:22)

@Joe
Although it is true that power builds easily defeat players who spend too many turns with emp& atom smasher since that 1 turn is a huge difference. However it is the only way to beat CH. If you try to out tank cyber hunters you can't succeed due to the constant emp's countering reroute and making it difficult to heal while they stream in energy ( though now at a slower rate) with static charge, and can still take the beating from those lost turns because of PA and SA. This is a problem since classes shouldn't be forced to a specific builds to defeat a different class.

I think CH tanking ability needs a slight nerf and then they'll be balanced



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/23/2012 0:52:24)

I can guarantee you CH tanking will be stopped when PA is removed, and to an extent where tanking would kill yourself if you are a CH, and PA is removed. The thing is Od, We HAVE to sue PA to get the most out of the class, and it hinders unique builds whilst also if we DON'T use PA, our RES is dead. Consider on page 11 what rayniedays56 posted, it's not we want to tank, it's just the most efficient way to survive out there, and personally i think tank is BORING. DEAD BORING. I'd hate to fight a guy with 30-36DEF/RES plus armor protection.

I changed to a multi build because that is a build where we can survive, try going without PA, you might survive but then you are only using 60% of the class' FULL potential. CHs are urging for PA to ES or TC, but no one is yet to make the act for that to happen.

About EMP topic,

OP? If you spam it throughout entire battle then yes
Use it once or twice? not OP at all.

The hard thing is making those players who DO ABUSE it to stop, because not every CH is abusing EMP. And my EMP doesn't even take 30EP, i think it does 26-27. And as Joe mentioned, it takes a turn and 10EP from us. [:D]



BlueKatz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/23/2012 1:03:13)

The problem with EMP is not how much stats (EP in this case) it takes away from us. It's about EMP taking your chance to use your skills: which waste our skill points
Also unlike other stats decreasing skill, EMP permanently decrease your stats

So mathematically EMP is OP

Just saying, since I didn't do with Atom Smasher, and I don't have that much problem vs EMP myself



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/23/2012 1:05:57)

@BlueKatz

You have a good point, but then again, i think each class deserves an EP-regain skill to make it in par. Bounties are forced to STR since they have limited EP, and so is Merc and BM, into STR. Because STR needs no EP due to using strike to win, EP-regain allows classes to use skills not once but twice in-battle, and also other skills that can be put to use.

Merc has great skills, and if they receive an EP-Regain ability, they will be perfect.



Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/23/2012 2:03:36)

I mean I have a level 2 EMP.

I think like 12 EP and takes away 26. So it costs me 12 EP, takes away 26 from you, but you get a free turn on me. 20 damage or 14 EP, it's your choice. Plus (assuming CH/TLM/TM), CH can just static back next turn not much harm done, TLM/TM will get it back from Reroute Eventually and stuff, with EMP the battle just becomes longer, but still fair IMO.

Whenever someone EMPs me, I EMP right back, and then we're reduced to striking 3s on each other, raging guns, and staticing. I'm pretty sure I fought a level 33 who was also relatively tanky, it took us around 5 minutes to finish the battle (I won on a rage gun). Literally 5 minutes kuz we were EMPing the whole time to prevent heals and stuff while hitting 3s on each other.

Battle was still fair, just WAY more drawn out.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/23/2012 2:58:01)

Dex E Shield is also affecting BHs and BMs if you change it, leaving BHs with one Support-improving skill (Reflex) and BMs having just 2 (Reflex and Intimidate) which renders Support build useless for both. And Dex BM + E Shield is also quite too much - they have high Energy so will have enough for Overload, Multi and Heal/Shield so with very high Dex, they can get E Armor and use their much stronger Shield which improves with Reflex so about +40 Dex from Reflex at least would bump up E Shield by maybe +10 Res? And for CHs, you'd do the same really as they have Dex-improving Multi and with SC, they could just loop it even further.

Technican is also Dex-improving but much weaker and ain't as effective at Lvl 1 so it's much better choice. Only thing that'd be in a way is how it improves EMP really.



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/23/2012 5:35:10)

Did they raise the chance of Critical strike for the Bunker Buster from 25% to 100% because I have seen it in every 2vs2 not only on me but on other players and if they did raise it and did not tell anyone they need to lower it.

Everyone seen how high my dex is and only one time a merc with a high tech build with max Bunker Buster got 19 damage rest of the time 40 critical the highest was 47 critical damage. Something is not right when they could get mid high damage on a player with high defense something is tipping the balance and allowing the merc bunker buster to ignore all defenses so staff add that to your list.



RageSoul -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/23/2012 5:50:04)

@Hun
Well , Merc has no Smoke , so why would you want to nerf their only life-saving skill? The problem their is the calculations of the RNG , not the skill .



ScarletReaper -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/23/2012 8:01:11)

Don't see how emp is making ch overpowered. By that logic, bountyhunter is op too because They have it. All of us ch's agree as to what nerfs/buffs need to be done. but what I also find hilarious is that people say our tanking is too good. Tacmercs are already waaaayyyy better tanks because it is a lot easier to get super high tech than dex. But nobody thinks They need a nerf because of it.



PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/23/2012 8:04:40)

@Trans: Technician can be changed to dex if they just create a new skill. in no way should effort ever be put in front of balance at our end.
the staff know how to add new skills, if a new kind of technician fixes balance then we should suggest it, and they should just do it :)

[obviously it is completely down to the staff to make a decision on whether it really would fix balance]

@Hun Kingq: I think I have seen the "bug" you are talking about. when Bunker hits for a really low amount, but next time they use it, it crits
and does about 3-4 times as much damage. as always, it can be explained by the damage range of bunker buster, the defence range of the
person it hits, and the fact that crit ignores 50% of their defence, higher defence, more ignored, lower defence, less ignored.

you gotta learn this dude cause you keep posting "bugs" that are not bugs at all. You just have a poor understanding of game mechanics.



streetnaruto -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/23/2012 9:09:48)

stop saying that pa should be removed people if you remove pa you also have to remove ma. Basic balance TacMerc can tank just as good as ch With 11 def and a good 9 + res armor plus stats so its the same as pa



rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/23/2012 9:21:41)

Taking out PA would allow Cybers to become better than they are. Right now, with PA, we are kind of OP. Really, where is the fun in that? In always winning and using the same build over and over again.


I am going to guess, sir, that you are using this build...


3-1-1
M-M-x
x-3-x
x-5-3


There, am I right? And your strategy is malf, SC, gun, heal if necessary, sc, massacre, rage gun?


Max PA, Max SC, High Strength/Low Defenses build? Which is 99% of the CH population? The CH's who see and want their class to become the best it can be WANTS PA taken away so that we WON'T be constantly nerfed.

DOne :)



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/23/2012 9:34:47)

Technican already improves with Dex, Pivotal. That's why it's a good choice as they will have decent amount of it which makes Technican better.

Hun, if Bunker gets changed then so does Cannon of BM's. Exactly the same skills then change one and you want to weaken your class. Stop posting with "bugs" because they are not so don't spread false information because you're misleading more players and this isn't Bug section either. Check it's 100% of time which it isn't because I played on my Merc with high Support but didn't Crit every Bunker. Point proven, case closed. ;)

Street, CHs have too big synergy with Plasma than TLMs. Sure TLMs are strong but very beatable - you cannot loop EMP, synergy with Tech is much lower as it's just SS that improves it, whilst CHs have Dex and Plasma which gives them Tank defences, unblockable EMP, and can loop more easily. Only change TLMs could use is new HA which Mercs own and that's a final change - Mercs have HA so logical it's a Merc skill not CH's.
They aren't even OP anymore, strong yes but beatable. Mineral can stay as class has flaws whichh players can target; every build has a weakness, my TM manages fine but not sure about other classes.



BadLT -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/23/2012 9:55:56)

i have to question your sanity if you are suggesting nerfing Bunker Buster , The only decent skill mercenaries have along with intimidate
IF you nerf bunker you have to nerf all the tech mage cast spells , berzerker , bludgeon , massacre and basically any other skill that deals damage just to balance things
If anything , bunker should be the same and the rest of merc should be buffed



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/23/2012 10:30:34)

BadLT is right, it's not nerf one but nerf all to match the power of skills. Cannon would be due in for same nerf, but you won't care as you're Dex BM so don't use Cannon.
Mercs need a buff, even with current Bunker. Wouldn't say that skill needs buff exactly but Adrenaline does + FC and Intimidate revamp should make them more compatitable. It's hard to survive as a Merc at higher Levels, even with this Bunker you want to nerf but I don't wanna waste Varium and go TLM as I have one so keeping loyal to che class.

Hun, FYI, game is like big equation - change one number and other one must change as well te retain the same values. With no knowledge, posting "bugs" and how your Multi is weak even though mine deals fine damage or you're making it up, you have failed to understand how game works. Discussion means multiple point of view, you've showed one sided arguments and deny everything else - this is not a discussion. Fact you're also being rude further implies you're seeking what you want and don't care about others just proves you're greedy. Thanks for your attention. ;)



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/23/2012 22:35:45)

Trans, Bunker Buster and Plasma Cannon are unlinked skills so if you change one it does not change another. If Bunker Buster is doing more critical damage and more often on players with any level of defense than Plasma Cannon does then it has to be looked at, it is our job to bring this to the staff attention so they can look at the battle tracker and try to figure out why a skill constantly gets 40+ damage on players with high defense. So fine damage to you is 35 no wonder your 2vs2 wins is so low. Being rude addressing me in this manner instead of PM is beyond rudeness. I am bringing up issues for staff to look at and adjust if need and that benefits everyone so if that is greedy then I guess I am being greedy for everyone. If I see something wrong I will post it and if you don't like that then don't respond. Mercs don't need a buff and the Bunker buster don't need a buff. I have seen Adrenaline at work at that skill works like it should because I saw it in action. Field commander works as it should and you are just catering to strength abusing builds if you want that buff. You are level 34 tech mage and as far as I seen high level mercs are not struggling especially the ones I saw with high tech and support using Bunker Buster and Artillery strike. many of them are using strength builds for every battle mode which in 2vs2 and 2vs1 the need Artillery strike just like the tact merc having poison build for every battle mode. It may be closed for you but until the staff investigates then the case will always be open.

BadLT, I am not suggesting that, if a players defense is at 35-42, 36-44, or higher, should the damage every match be + 40 critical damage even with max reflex boost on. The program needs to be looked at because there is either something wrong with the equation or something wrong with the code itself.

PivotalDisorder, here you go again with game mechanics how do we know its bugs it could be balance issued like with Plasma Rain I need basically twice as much Dex that the merc class needs with support to get the same or more damage and that is the balance issue. Many will say nerf Artillery strike but when nerf it adjust Plasma rain so the mage class do not need such high dex so that we could have more points somewhere else. Same with Bunker Buster don't nerf it but take a look at the code and equation that it does its calculations with.

On the EMP and Atom smasher side those two skills need to be one use skill but if Atom smasher is blocked then it could be used again and that no two high energy drain skills could be used on the same players especially 4 times in one match, that is an over abuse of a skill and it is just plain nasty and unbalance due to a class having no high energy draining skill or classes having no energy regain skill.



King FrostLich -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/23/2012 23:15:31)

quote:

if a players defense is at 35-42, 36-44, or higher, should the damage every match be + 40 critical damage even with max reflex boost on.


Yes that is possible. A critical bunker buster ignores 70% of the player's defense; the same goes with a critical plasma cannon that ignores 70% of resistance and depending on the number the rng picks from bunker buster/plasma cannon and your defense/resistance respectively, it is possible. I manage to crit 46 against someone with 27 - 33 + 9 resistance using plasma cannon so it's a big yes.



Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/23/2012 23:26:00)

BMs need nerf as fast as CHs need a buff/rework.

Today I have fought 10 battles so far. I have won 4. All against lower-leveled CH. I have lost 6. All against level 34 STR BM.

Suspicious...



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/24/2012 2:32:28)

Just a reply to everyone and a recap.

@Hun

Nerfing Mercs bunk won't make that class any better, in fact i get bunked A-LOT, and i live with it, it often crits me but that is what makes the battle challenging, and if you can't live with other people critting you, then try not critting yourself, and do keep in mind that BUNK has a critical chance, and it ignores 50% DEF. If you want Merc nerfed, then nerf BMs Plasma cannon, and given Merc a BIG BUFF. Because Mercs at lower-lvl NEEDS BUNK. Without it they can't do anything offensive and all their attacks are just blockable. And really so far you have complained abotu every class except BM, because BM is so far OP UBER OWNAGE. Also, Mercs are full of skills, but lack EP-drain, so basically, i think they can have strong attacks. No bunk, then give EP-drain.

And one more thing, i have fought a lot of Plasma cannon BMs and Mercs, they usually crit, and the only reason is because you see LESS BMS THAN MERCs, hence you think that Mercs crit more than BMs plasma cannon.

@Street

Prior to what Rayniedays posted, the STR CH build with the synergy of PA, MASS, SC and malf is a problem, i have a multi build and it works just as fine, maybe not as quick but there really isn't any point battling and winning every minute. As a CH i HEAVILY agree to take out PA, it just limits creative builds, SO MUCH. I could make awesome builds, but PA hinders it and we have to have PA otherwise our RES is unprotected. So as wanting the best for CH, PA needs to be taken out. You probably haven't experienced the non-PA CH days, but they were great. And if you need any builds, just ask, because we can help.

And now EMP is honestly not that much OP, although it will be if misused and abused. I try to control my EMP use as less as possible so the match won't be boring. And yesterday i just lost because of not EMPing a person when i could of. THAT is what makes matches fun in many ways, an entire different outcome. So EMP can stay, BUT i can say that i am fine if it is limited to TWO-USE PER MATCH. One use is just killing it.

And why hasn't the release been done yet, why are BMs still dominating and CHs destroyed with PA?



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/24/2012 2:49:52)

quote:

Bunker Buster and Plasma Cannon are unlinked skills so if you change one it does not change another.

Shows how much you know about the game. Plasma Cannon is Energy version of Bunker, we all knew it since the beggining, even ask Staff member.
quote:

If Bunker Buster is doing more critical damage and more often on players with any level of defense than Plasma Cannon does then it has to be looked at, it is our job to bring this to the staff attention so they can look at the battle tracker and try to figure out why a skill constantly gets 40+ damage on players with high defense.

As King FrostLich said, at Criticals it ignores total of 70% defence which is obviously a lot. Your Cannon does the same so change one, you change the other.
quote:

So fine damage to you is 35 no wonder your 2vs2 wins is so low. Being rude addressing me in this manner instead of PM is beyond rudeness. I am bringing up issues for staff to look at and adjust if need and that benefits everyone so if that is greedy then I guess I am being greedy for everyone.

Funnily enough, I'm a 1v1 player. Rarely touch 2v2 due to runners but it's a nice change, much easier on my alts. Bringing up issues? Yes your "bugs" are certainly the ones which will waste Staff's time because they aren't bugs + this is NOT Bugs section, don't post it here unless you have confirmation that it's a bug. Otherwise you're spreading false information.
quote:

Mercs don't need a buff and the Bunker buster don't need a buff. I have seen Adrenaline at work at that skill works like it should because I saw it in action. Field commander works as it should and you are just catering to strength abusing builds if you want that buff.

Balance Tracker shows Mercs are UP, and Str BMs are OP. You cannot ignore that because you're spreading lies again. Who said Bunker needs a buff? You said it needs a nerf.. Adrenaline? Sure it works but is much worse in 1v1, and please don't tell me what BM thinks of other Class because after your posts, you want to nerf other classes for sake of a buff to yours. This is selfish and greedy.
quote:

You are level 34 tech mage and as far as I seen high level mercs are not struggling especially the ones I saw with high tech and support using Bunker Buster and Artillery strike.

With that build? That's news to me. I fight Mercs but never seen one of these at high Level, usually ones I fight go for Bunker, SS, Atom just in case but m'kay.
quote:

It may be closed for you but until the staff investigates then the case will always be open.

Then DON'T post it here. If you think it's a Bug, post it in Bugs section rather than spread it around Balance Thread with no proof it's a bug. You're just misleading players instead.

Two more things Hun - you said once that you're one of the experience programmers and a while back, you said your knowledge is above all of us here but that got deleted. How come you cannot grasp basics of ED then? Discussion is NOT one sided, accept other people's point of view rather than flame it. *repeating it for 3rd time?*
And quoting you from 2 pages before:
quote:

Reflex Boost since you are a Tech Mage you have no idea how inefficient it is, on the defensive and blocking side for the Blood Mage it surprise people when it prevents high damage or they see blocking because those things rarely happens.

You, yourself have no idea how other classes work. Stop judging us on how we don't know if Mercs are UP or not because you aren't even one. Many of us here played specific class if we talk about it, I have alts and have some data to back it up but sometimes not enough. FC doesn't need a buff? Funny enough, it's getting a revamp along with Intimidate but I can say that I don't want buff to Intimidate as it makes BMs too strong, even though I haven't got BM anymore, I can say it because I'm right, no? Obviously not.. >_>



drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/24/2012 4:53:56)

Hmm, a idea that will cripple people who dump into power and uses the Buff-Nerfer/Nerf-Buffer bots:

The Assault/Rusty/Azrael can only affect 2 turns of the Buff/Nerf, instead of 3. This would make it actually be more rewarding to play defensively, but without Passive Tankerism.



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/24/2012 6:03:10)

Arevero, Did I once ask for a nerf on Bunker Buster, no, I did not and if Plasma Cannon doing the same every match then the staff has to investigate why both are getting above 25% chance critical on players with high defense or resistance.


Trans, to be a linked skill between the classes it has to have the same exact name not just be one energy and the other physical. Artillery strike and multi shot are both double strike skills but one is energy and one is physical with different names, are they linked, no, each one can be adjusted. Even staff member already stated that for skills to be linked they have to have the same exact name to be linked in the Data Base. Someone messed up in wiki this is the description of Plasma Cannon "Plasma Cannon, which includes a 25% chance for critical strike and ignores 20% of your opponent’s resistance. "

Bunker Buster: Fires a rocket ignoring 20% defense; 25% chance for a critical strike.
This is under the skills:
Plasma Cannon: Fires plasma ignoring 20% defense; 25% chance for a critical strike.

So where is the 70%?

Mercs are only Underpowered because of the players and their weak builds and that is why the loose so much. If you don't play a class everyday and don't use a skill every match that is not judging someone I now how the skills work of the different classes and see the power potential of each one. Show me where I wrote nerf the damage potential or amount of energy drain of any skill, please go through all the post and show everyone. Over and over again I wrote nerfs are not the answer.



King FrostLich -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/24/2012 6:09:10)

quote:

Someone messed up in wiki this is the description of Plasma Cannon "Plasma Cannon, which includes a 25% chance for critical strike and ignores 20% of your opponent’s resistance. "


You do know the wiki is just edited through another player's own perspective which clearly is the same as what the skill is saying. I don't understand what's so hard to differentiate Plasma cannon's description from the real description in the game. It's just words nothing but a simplified sentence.

quote:

So where is the 70%?


It's when you crit bunker buster or plasma cannon?



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