RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/20/2012 4:07:52)

Matrix and E Shield both improve with Support, that's the main problem. Fact it improves at much quicker rate by Support gives it already +20 Def/Res at Lvl 1 with 60ish Support. That's my only reason.



PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/20/2012 4:44:37)

quote:

Because it would cause SUP abuse, and as DM, ES, and malf currently all improve on SUP, it would cause our malf to take out 40tech, our shields up to 24+ on lv1, and we will crit a lot as well. That is why we cannot possibly be balanced with ES by SUP.
Technician back does seem the better choice, I agree.



BadWitch -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/20/2012 5:27:14)

I say that they should remove emp or change it with something that can be blocked.What is the reason of this game if you can use your skills because players with none steals your mana?



Darkwing -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/20/2012 5:31:49)

bludgeon for BM is a mistake. a lvl 1( 28%) costs only 10 energy, and it deals more based on stregth. even a max bludgeon(55%) can be used more then once because of low energy cost (28). Before, not many BM used berserk because you could block it ( most BM have low dexterity) and they waste 45 energy.



drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/20/2012 6:35:04)

Hmmm. I sort of agree.

But seriously, if Fireball -> Support, there really isn't that much to abuse.

FireBall - Reflex - Intimidate - E. Shield

Not much at all.



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/20/2012 9:18:07)

Fireball should be either put into SUP based, or changed to a strict-based attack that has no improvements and stays as base damage. If it improves by SUP, it would allow BMs to use that stat more often, so far many of them have around 25-28SUP, and they need a push to encourage SUP use in BMs.

If that is difficult, a base should be set, max could have around dmg, or something...

Anyways to CHs problem, technician MIGHT provide us with too low protection again, so that's the problem if we get technician, but since we might get Conduction over malf, we only have TWO skills that improve by SUP, so ES can be implemented. That way it will seem more balanced. So it will be Conduction over malf, ES over PA, DM stays, static full %, and SA could be revamped or switched to DA.



PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/20/2012 11:12:04)

might not be such a bad idea for classes to have 3-4 support based skills, as it's such a weak stat. Basically a trade off, more versatility for less power.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/20/2012 11:38:17)

@drinde & Arevero
quote:

FireBall - Reflex - Intimidate - E. Shield

Making Energy Shield and Matrix based on Support is overkill, giving them Support Fireball would be bigger overkill so Technican is best choice. My suggestion was E Shield improving with Tech but that also affects BHs which I don't want to touch suggestion wise, unless it's a buff. Technican can do really well and make up for less Res (E Shield > Technican) by improving your stats and as it improves with Dex, it can do quite good Multi Tank build. ^^
Arevero, E Shield is not an option. Read above + Pivotal's post at the top of the page. For this reason I removed it from my suggestion completely. Besides Technican was fine before PA was introduced so it won't be too weak. Good build is already above which is same as current Dex build but with Technican + much better SC. :P

Fireball with Support ain't that bad idea. IIRC there's no skill that improves with Str which is good because it prevents big abuse which BMs have now (power is big, not abuseable although in some cases it may be). Str builds would still favour Bludgeon and DA to improve their damage as well as utilize BL with it just like TMs do with their Str builds and BHs with BL. For BMs, the skills that use Support are a Shield and debuff which is to Str, not your defences and giving offensive skill just raises their build count. Focus 5 would be working much better than it is now for them as well as perhaps Tech/Dex build with highish Support.



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/21/2012 2:49:56)

Trans, 100 dex that is 96 (28-34), 35 to 50 more like 35 to 37 at 101 (29-35) it is 36 to 38
At my Dex 131 (35-42) without a boost are 45 to 47 with boost 181 (45-54) 48 to 51 that is if the program responds like it should. Let me see, how do I know all this it is because I tried Plasma Rain at all levels of Dex. Where I seen a merc get 50+ damage at 135 (28-34) support. An improvement to the Plasma rain skill would mean an improvement to both the Blood Mage and Tech mage do you not realize that. I do not need more creative builds what you need is battle more often in 2vs2 and 2vs1 where you use Plasma Rain on two players not one. Plasma Rain needs to be looked at by staff and possible scale differently with Dex than Artillery strike does with support. Yes, high damage is 60+ now a days which the same amount of dex as support should give all multis the same damage. Even with my high Dex with lower support they still get 47 + With max Reflex boost on my partner bringing their Dex up to 136 (36-44) the Artillery strike went through it as if it was not there and it was 57 non critical damage. I am calling for an adjustment not a buff because if it improves with dex then we should be able to see that improvement and if it was not so weak why did they make this adjustment Improves With: Technology (+1 damage at 28 Technology; +1 damage per 4 Technology after) to this Improves With: Dexterity (+1 damage at 24 Dexterity; +1 damage per 4 Dexterity after) why did they not keep it at 28 Dex if it is that all powerful skill that you as a tech mage do not want to see more adjustments. Only time I get 60+ is if a player gets malfunctioned, wait Blood mages don’t have malfunction just Tech mages.

Goony, I have been a mage and will always be a mage whether Tech or Blood I have no desire of being any other class. If I was to be a merc I would be a very feared merc because I would have a build that would be so powerful that it would get high damage every time. It is not my fault you and many others can’t find a good 2vs2 build as I can see by your Character Pages, in a week I will be at over 6000 2vs2 wins. The merc class is neither over powered or under powered as many of you claim but it is payers with bad builds that is bringing that class down. So make a good powerful build and get back with me.

I see that many others having problems with multiple EMP strikes and calling for it to be taken away but instead it should be limited to one use skill. Any high energy drain should be limited to only one per player per match not EMP from one player then an EMP from the second, One EMP then one Atom smasher, one EMP Then one Assimilation, so on and so on.

Over and over again everyone told the mages you just need to find the right build so now the shoe is on the other feet practice what you preach.

Balance is not nerf after nerf not buff after buff not skill replacement but skill adjustment. Everyone wanted berzerker taken away so it is and being replaced with Bludgeon and now you are complaining about that.

These are the skills that need to be adjusted to possibly get on the road to balance:
EMP
Atom Smasher
Assimilation
Reflex Boost
Blood Lust
Intimidation
Plasma Rain
Possibly multi shot but with the Cyber Hunters having malfunction, not really on their end
Maybe they should have a physical multi shot for the bounty hunters and keep the energy multi shot with the Cyber hunters to match Debuff skills.

khalidon5000, once a mage always a mage and that is why I would never be any other class, yes all builds have the weaknesses but it is quite clear people have not figure that out yet but call for nerfs. Yes, If I was a merc I could come up with a power build within 2 or 3 rounds the match is over. I have helped out mercs with 2vs2 builds and they are winning more often then before and they thank me over and over again so a Blood Mage that was never a merc helping mercs get good builds and even winning against the Strength Blood Mage.



khalidon5000 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/21/2012 2:59:38)

^^
Hun Kinqq

Really? I doubt that you wouldn't want to become a mercenary if you could do all of that.
BTW Just saying that won't make what you say true because you don't have any proof.
If you have always been some sort of mage wouldn't what you are saying be a prediction with no real basis to it.
Your *build* might have some unforeseen weakness.

Winning more often then before and winning alot more are 2 different things.
They may have been losing 90% of matches but then with your help end up losing 60%.



Archlord Raistlin -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/21/2012 3:16:33)


Haven't been on in awhile...my current list of WTF?

1. Why do I have a level 22 partner? ...and fight a level 24?

2. Change deflect out of tech...or lower the hell out of it...is it really necessary to
have constant deflects throughout every match? RUINS matches...just adds to
your manipulation of the "luck" factor.

3. Get rid of boosters...the one's who need it dont use it, but the noob 34's DO.
If not removed, then make them only available up to level 30...then NADA.
Then make a special boss booster for everyone to use, etc...

4. Fix the gamma bot...5 focus rage blocks for no reason other than to save
someone's life so they can then rage you is I N F U R I A T I N G ... my 116 dex against
25 defense isn't enough to get it to hit??? Make it more reliable...for the MILLIONTH time.

5. Spend a little of your dam time on balancing 2v2...maybe a rating number for players
instead of level to make a better match up. There are really few matches in a day that
are well balanced...the rest are one-sided with the underdogs getting lucky to make
it close in the end. That is a L A M E way to compensate for 2v2 balance issues...

6. Why are there so many more disconnects and "battle failed to start" messages?
I've been Admin kicked about 3 times from multiple start fails...how does THAT happen?

7. While you're at it get rid of runners, skippers and 2-hitters as well...

OK...I'm out of breath :)



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/21/2012 3:52:27)

Cybers Multi-shot is fine, no need to be fixed/ touched at all. We already have enough changes to catch up with, and a physical Multi-shot makes it weak, Bhs have reflex to buff up Multi, so we use malf to do the same thing, and no, reflex to Cybers isn't something i look forward to.

And a skill that can only be used once is just an overkill, completely ruins the point of the skill and strategies. But to those who do abuse it, stop it, it's irritating. And like i said, you cannot compensate a whole class JUST for some people over-abusing it.

And if reflex boost is that weak, buff it, but i am not sure if there isn't ANY improvement after you have used it, i need to make an experiment on that.

@Archlord

Boosting isn't a problem, it scales a whole 'turn tabled' event making you the winner when you were losing before. It just adds more chance, especially to the lvl scaling of 5 lvls. Sorry but i disagree to that thought.

Things i do agree is disconnections, and 2v2 BALANCE TRACKER, i mean what's a lv29 doing in an all-3 lv34s battle. Disconnections not only made me lose a winning match, but also adds a loss streak onto my record. [:@] I mean really? I haven't done anything and BOOM, 1 loss onto your record.

Balance tracker has been left long enough, time to pick it up and promote 2v2. I do not play 2v2 anymore due to the 40% chance of winning, depends on your ally, and 30% depends on enemy, rest into skill and experience.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/21/2012 4:48:10)

@Hun
quote:

EMP - Agreed, but not giving it a major nerf.
Atom Smasher - Agreed, but not giving it a major nerf.
Assimilation - Why..? It's good how it is, why do you want to touch skill that does normal damage and takes a lot to train & be efficient?
Reflex Boost - Why? If you boost Reflex, Technican is due in for a buff as well. It's already good with decent Support.
Blood Lust - Why? Nerf = you're killing BHs. Buff = no.
Intimidation - This is already being worked on, revamp will be made to the skill simply.
Plasma Rain - Why again? It's on same power as other Multis. Fact you get "low" damage which is maybe 30-40 doesn't mean it needs a buff, it's fact it hits 2 enemies. If power is low with Reflex, do the math of what you should get (damage range with Reflex), take away from enemy's resistance and check if it's right. If not then report to Bugs section, if yes then it's fine.

Stop looking at the ways to buff your class and nerf others. It's not how it works.
quote:

Only time I get 60+ is if a player gets malfunctioned, wait Blood mages don’t have malfunction just Tech mages.

Decent Malf is somewhere at about -40 Technology so that's -10 Res. Without it, you deal 50+ as you've said. This is high already and you're hitting 2 players. 40-50 damage is NOT weak considering many players stay at 95 or 110 HP so you're taking HALF of it in one attack and heal yourself.

Stop being one sided about balance and picky about our suggestions. I don't see you agreeing with other people even if we look for buffs while others agree with people or disagree & post their feedback which is better than simply disagreeing.

@below
Thank you. I don't fully disagree with his posts but they are really one sided which is a problem in discussions.



khalidon5000 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/21/2012 5:13:30)

Thanks Trans for pointing this out!!!
The point of this is to achieve balance not allow your class to become better then others.



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/21/2012 10:34:44)

Trans, you assuming I am talking about nerfing the skills but I was not the three energy draining skills I listed in 2vs2 and 2vs1 no two or the same two should be allowed to be used on the same player in the battle, the energy drain is the same but Assimilation does need and increase.

Reflex Boost since you are a Tech Mage you have no idea how inefficient it is, on the defensive and blocking side for the Blood Mage it surprise people when it prevents high damage or they see blocking because those things rarely happens.

Blood Lust, did I say nerf, no I did not why would I want a skill that gives back a poor percentage of health in the Blood Mage skill tree to get less it should actually get more.

Plasma Rain it is not a bug that it gets less damage when I have 80 potential damage and the opponent has 20-24 +1 (21-25) then people should see 55 – 59 potential damage not 35 –39 or 40 – 45. I do the math before I use it. I put the mercs get 50+ damage constantly even with reflex boost on at max with high defense already that is at 135 (28-34) support but to get the same damage even with low resistance on the other players the Blood Mage or Tech Mage has to have Dex at 181 (45-54) or lower their resistance so with that in mind you misread and the damage level between the multis at each stat is not the same.

Answer this
“If it was not so weak why did they make this adjustment Improves With: Technology (+1 damage at 28 Technology; +1 damage per 4 Technology after) to this Improves With: Dexterity (+1 damage at 24 Dexterity; +1 damage per 4 Dexterity after) why did they not keep it at 28 Dex if it is that all powerful skill that you as a tech mage do not want to see more adjustments?”

So it still needs adjustments to balance out the multis.

Arevero, last time I check the bounty has smoke so a physical multi would be a benefit to them just as the Cyber Hunter has malfunction the energy multi is a benefit to them. Have you ever been EMPed 3 to 4 times in one match or Emped then Atom smashed twice or Atom smashed 3 to 4 times in one match, do this on players without energy regain is to much especially when they take away a large portion of energy like at level 8 EMP took away 47 points of energy that was over half my energy, just imagine that happening twice back to back. So it should be limited to one use skill if it takes more than 20 points of energy and no one player should have its energy drain more than once in a match.

Just got out a 2vs2 battle a merc with 99 (22-27) support with max Artillery got 42 damage on both opponents while with my Dex at 131 (35-42) without boost got 45 damage on each with Plasma Rain a 13 - 15 stat point difference and they had lower resistance than defense so the damage is not equal and is not balanced.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/21/2012 11:15:39)

Don't assume I'm just a TM, I do own a BH char as well with Reflex, had one all the way until Lvl 27 where I changed to CH, my old TLM was a BH and my Lvl 16 now is a BH, not gonna mention my TM was a BH from the start of the game. Exactly. I had 4 BH chars which are all different classes now but my 5th char, don't judge by the fact I can only list 1 char below my avvy.

BL and a buff? Some people are gonna laugh. With unblockable skills of BM + DA&Gun, it gives you 3 attacks that never can miss and give you great amount of HP back + deal very high damage, these are Fireball -> Attack -> Gun -> Fireball. Of course attack can miss but other 3 cannot, and they add up to over 100 damage easily. That's 23 HP back at least, not much? 1 HP = 1 Def/Res so you're getting additional bonus really. Buff it? I know BHs need a buff but BL needn't to be touched, especially with Str abuse of BMs which is all unblockable.

quote:

Plasma Rain it is not a bug that it gets less damage when I have 80 potential damage and the opponent has 20-24 +1 (21-25) then people should see 55 – 59 potential damage not 35 –39 or 40 – 45.

Potential 80 damage is IMPOSSIBLE even with Betas! For 80 damage from Multi you need 216 Dexterity and Lvl 10 Rain which is purely impossible. I'm using Thylek's sheet and it's already high enough that it breaks after 150+. 216 Dex is impossible with Dex abuse because you need Reflex maxed with decent Support to get at least 50-60 Dex from it but it's impossible. Get your facts right before you start saying your points, half of it is already purely false.
Mercs get higher damage on Multi? Look at people's Defences, if it's a Crit or Rage. It all matters. Yes at high or abusive Dex, Multi improves by 7 points whilst Merc's Multi goes as far as 6 but Support is a luck based stat and affects your Aux only, Dex and Tech are defensive stats that give you much more bonuses hence slower progression. Compare Support to Dexterity and see which one is superior.



ScarletReaper -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/21/2012 11:36:22)

How in the world is technician a better choice for ch than energyshield? As has been stated before, technician gives waaaaayyyyy less resistance than es. I also don't like the idea that tacmercs are going to be left as Godlike tank masters with their passive armor. And yeah, conduction should be static.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/21/2012 11:40:14)

@scarlet Because Defense Matrix and Malf both increase with support as does Energy Shield. That would give CHs the ability to tank and be offensive at the same time with little drawback.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/21/2012 11:41:04)

Because Defence Matrix and Energy Shield both improve with Support. That gives too much Defence with just one stat.
quote:

Because it would cause SUP abuse, and as DM, ES, and malf currently all improve on SUP, it would cause our malf to take out 40tech, our shields up to 24+ on lv1, and we will crit a lot as well. That is why we cannot possibly be balanced with ES by SUP.

^ at top of the page & Technican allows Dex builds to shine - Dex improves Technican so you can do Multi + SC build and protect against Energy attacks well. It was fine before with Technican so now should be fine as well. And to above quote - not too high Tech, spam Dex and with E Shield, Matrix and Malf, you can dominate with Multi build as even 50ish Tech and E Armor can give enough defence.



BlueKatz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/21/2012 13:28:09)

Why not giving CH Blood Shield and TLM Technical? TLM has been begging for Technical for a while and they don't have much build beside Light heal loop + DS STR abuse and Toxic build or high Ultimate build.
Also I know that CH can heal very well so BS is not a bad choice



ScarletReaper -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/21/2012 16:40:55)

Actually bloodshield wouldn't be a bad idea at all.



PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/21/2012 16:46:14)

if they replace Plasma Armour with Blood Shield I will die laughing :P



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/21/2012 16:50:54)

Why not Technican? It's better than Blood Shield in any aspect - it's pretty much equal even if not stronger as Tech grants you bonuses like higher deflection rate, improves skills, etc, for EP cost which is cheap and easy to regain via SC. BS costs HP, gives as much as Technican but less and 2 Shields is really not good because it leaves them with no stat buffer at all.

@below
Indeed it would be, we'll probably just see. Unless they find a way to keep Plasma Armor and nerf/take out EMP. Multis are being worked on as well as Ultimate skills for Evolved classes but that will take time.



PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/21/2012 17:06:17)

my main concern with Technician for Cyber Hunters is EMP. until that skill is nerfed or removed, giving them Technician is just another headache.



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/21/2012 18:32:59)

@Hun

Yes i have been EMPed 3-4 times, in fact every time i static, they almost EMP me. But that's a rare case i have only encountered a few times. To those 'match ruiners' they completely destroy all meaning of fun in a match. BUT, against a Caster/SC TM build(still possible, just change the amount of dex to tech and a P armor), you MUST EMP your way through whilst healing, the TM issue wasn't solved completely.


Another thing, blood shield shouldn't be given to CH, since if we lose plasma, we already are feeble once more, and if we get BS, our HP will decrease at a fast rate. So far ES is best choice, but the problem is the improvement, but how about we make a base ES, cannot improve with anything. It wouldn't affect BH since we can raise the RES pts a bit.

Also TLM with technician, wouldn't it mean robot abuse all over again? Robo-mancing...



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