RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Arcanis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/19/2012 12:12:42)

Well,the devs should have realized they screwed up when people started calling them "upgraded" classes.
I mean,you can't really expect this to be balanced game when "new" classes clearly outmatch old counterparts.
If some form of balance was introduced to original classes,the we could talk new ones. I mean,the fact that you can't start new game as a new class shows
that they realize it is better than old class. The only difference now is,when they make "circle of OPclass",they have more choices.
But even now,it's funny how it seems it's always one of the newer class ahead.

Other thing is sharing skills. I still claim it would be better if diff classes had diff skills,even with the same/similar effect. Would be so much easier to
control each one of them without effecting other one. We saw that it was possible with hybrid,so whats the problem there?

Also change class ability-limit it to certain amount of changes in predetermined amount of time. Make people think first,then class hop.

Not to be mean,but for a game that will soon run out of letters for phase names,some real issues keep being pushed behind,in favor of "The Moment" - new armor,new weapons,new missions etc.




Goony -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/19/2012 12:13:52)

Comical, the balance tracker would tell the developers what classes were being used by the players in the top levels... The new classes have all had a good opportunity to attract players to use them since they were introduced... As for all players being happy, it will never occur! 2 players enter battle and there is always 1 loser and no-one likes losing, just ask Hun King...

The developers told us they had introduced a balance tracker! I'm not sure why they told us as it is not really being used to inform the community what is happenning and to create some sort of feedback mechanism. From my understanding it will only tell them who wins and not how they won. I have heard Rabblefroth mention that he would like to know the issues and then the developers can work out a solution. But, from where I see it they don't even use this topic by giving out the balance facts and asking for a response. When was the last time "our" representation was discussed by the balance team, which I think at the moment consists of Ashari and Rabblefroth...

This discussion is a "Claytons" discussion... i.e. The discussion you have when you're not having a discussion!



BadLT -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/19/2012 12:46:55)

They said they are going to change BloodMages for sure , how about removing bloodlust , they easily gain 30 hp from hits



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/19/2012 12:51:33)

They are already losing Berzerker for Bludgeon and there's few more minor changes they want to put through along with this. That alone reduces Str build's power, and taking away BL from them makes no sense either - it's Blood Mage that focuses on weapons more (strength).



BadLT -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/19/2012 12:54:07)

Bludgeon increases with Strength , its still going to be pretty powerful , Slightly less powerful , still unbalanced



ansh0 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/19/2012 12:56:27)

@BadLT

Its practically imossible to get 30 HP back from bloodlust with EACH hit.

Bloodlust at MAX gives 23% HP back.

That means you get 23 HP every 100 DMG you do.

So to get 30 HP back would mean doing +100 DMG with each hit......no class does that

As for the BM rebalance, I am so happy to see zerk go from their skill tree.




BadLT -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/19/2012 13:00:58)

I never said in one hit , i tank Bms and they steal 30 hp , without it they would be dead XD



ansh0 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/19/2012 13:04:59)

Then that's not tanking them....lol



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/19/2012 13:08:47)

Still unbalanced? Going from 90% down to 55% and locked to Physical is much less. If we use +34 damage weapon and 20-24 damage then difference is large:
Berzerker = 103-110 (before defences)
Bludgeon = 84-90 (before defences)

Mind that, it's as I said, locked to Physical only so can be countered + progresses at much slower rate - 3% per Level as opposed to 5%. DIfference is big as you can see, up to 26 damage less without counting the defences and they didn't say it's the only change. And of course Bludgeon increases by Str! Good Str TM can be as good as Str BM but kill a bit slower & have ability to Tank better due to Reroute and destroy builds by Assimilate.



comicalbike -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/19/2012 13:10:00)

well goony getting wins when your top does not matter as you get nothing for being top so i often let people win to help then level up



BadLT -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/19/2012 13:10:24)

@Ansho: I see ,i dont know the name ,i just take the hits and heal till they're out of energy :P
@Trans I see , we'll just have to wait and see :/



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/19/2012 13:13:00)

Difference will be bigger as more Str is being used with these skills but even such a big difference is already a big change because Berzerker won't be doing 50 damage on you but no more than 30 damage with moderate Dex & you can stop it due to being locked to Physical - shield yourself for example.
If they plan on putting stat diminishing live with this update as well, then we'll see drop in damage of Str abusers using BM class due to getting less damage at higher range.



Goony -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/19/2012 13:18:15)

@BadLT, Conversley, the same could be said for mercenaries. With max hybrid we reduce damage by 6 hp on each attack. Only 4 rounds would be needed to equal that same 23/100... The major difference is that passive armors are ignored on rage.

As for the change of bezerker for bludgeon on bloodmages, that will just free up energy, which wasn't part of Trans equation, and it will actually give the bloodmages who don't use a strength build a huge buff and creates another class that has the bludgeon/deadly aim combination. Very low energy cost and high damage especially when used in conjunction with rage!

That would be a "Claytons" nerf... Just like the tech mage nerf, the nerf you get when you don't get nerfed! If the balance team had of read my posts in this thread they would understand that the problem isn't bezerker, it's str/fireball/deadly aim/bloodlust/rage combo! Unblockable damage!



comicalbike -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/19/2012 13:27:23)

i agree with you goony perfect post of what wrong with bm



BadLT -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/19/2012 13:53:41)

Thing is , everyone thinks we're just mad because we lose to bms , while the people saying so are OP Bms ( No offense to comical who's pretty great in any case )
Goony couldnt be more correct , Bms have a deadly combination of most classes , Its basically Flips the balance



BlueKatz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/19/2012 14:19:28)

BM is so broken, changing Zerker with bludgeon might even make it worse. I faced other builds like Tech abuse build with Reflex and it's just still insane, they take little damage while heal a lot and still can Rage with Fireball or Zerker. BL is broken. BM skill tree is too skill point cost effect wise



BadLT -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/19/2012 14:21:02)

Kat , Are you mad?
Just curious , not flaming



BlueKatz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/19/2012 14:39:22)

^Maybe, I really dislike BL and BM. I hated BM and knw it would be OP since they first release it, surprisingly people complain more about TLM

Really, just look at this:
quote:

Berzerker = 103-110 (before defences)
Bludgeon = 84-90 (before defences)

Also Bludgeon has no warm up
110/45=2.44
90/28= 3.21
Bludgeon even more cost effect than Zerker, the only thing make it weaker that it won't deal massive damage and kill you too fast. 20 damage difference: that's normally enough for you to survive right? But Bludgeon doesn't have warm up so what the point? Trading Zerker with Bludgeon just give you little chance to survive while give them more stat point to spend
Not to mention, Bludgeon is Physical, so all they have to do now is getting an Energy Gun and still have exactly the same build

What not to hate about BL? Fighting someone with 32/32 Def/Res at 160 HP? (Normal build has 110 HP, Heal normally heal 40 HP - that's 35 HP more for the person with max BL) I rather fight CH, at least they won't get 20 more HP since I got stunned, blocked or they do some lucky Crit



ansh0 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/19/2012 14:45:17)

Fireball improving with support.

Fireball improving with support.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/19/2012 14:45:37)

Katz, are you suggesting maybe BL -> Reroute to fit the Mage theme at the same time? They will have more build possibilities although we may see bigger abuse of Str builds anyway but not as bad due to no HP regeneration which is in this case same as TMs and their Bolt. Surely it's a big change but wouldn't that upset players? I may be speaking from balance point of view but it also affects players who don't look at this thread or care as much.

I want to see what further changes are included with Bludgeon change which was mentioned in DNs before I could fully agree on above idea, unless someone else has something in mind.



BlueKatz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/19/2012 15:09:42)

I actually don't have any suggestion for the BL issue, but the point if, BM is not OP because its skills are OP. STR BM is OP because of the same reason TLM was OP: Synergy. TLM was so OP since Smoke combine all possible skills and it was very hard to counter TLM since it technically can't be countered (if it has no hole how can you pick it?). BM has 3 freaking powerful skill: Fireball, Zerker and DA. All 3 have 2 cooldown. Seriously? And 3 of them has 3 different Element types. You can't counter it because it can loop, it can be used under any situation and doesn't follow any order - and with the new ridiculous Debuff the buff Bot and the BL, BM is extremely stable and can't be countered. BM STR skill tree is too good as well and all of BM skills encourage being maxed so Skill point wise it pretty much beat all classes (because you actually use all of your skill points) and of course, BL abuse the stat difference and break BM far away from other classes.

I would suggest making Fireball 3 turn cooldown, maybe Plasma Bolt as well for the Tech TM issue



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/19/2012 15:28:19)

Synergy, huh? I still don't get why Berzerker was Tier 2 skill while Mercs had it originally and still do at Tier 3 which means it's a powerful skill. Bludgeon is Tier 2 which makes it fine but what was reason behind Berzerker I don't know.
I have no solution to BL either, weakening it will further weaken BHs which is pointless.. Only thing I can think of is Reroute which would break that combo that Goony has mentioned as HP won't be the issue anymore (HP = defence) with high damage. Tanking would be possible but that one takes turns (Healing) or missing a turn for Shielding which all have cooldowns. Energy back would help them make any build though, let it be Dex, Tech, Str or maybe Support which might be weak (improves Shields and Intimidate only) but could be good with Focus 5 that focuses on Support.

But how would that affect BM population that have switched and for reason of BL maybe, I don't know.. :/



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/19/2012 18:29:21)

A question, do Mods read this thread? Or just lock it up per 30 pages.

Just realised that zerk will goto Bludgeon, but can i heavily stress that BLUDGEON will buff BM class, SO MUCH IN STR, that they can deal 30+dmg per 2 rounds! And it's low EP cost, means that NO EMP, NO ATOM, NO ASSIMILATION, could take down them using that skill.

Now how about separating BL, BHs BL can stay the way it is, BMs could gain a new skill called Transfer. Before you stop reading, please look at the skill.

Transfer allows them to do something similar to Static, except HP-based, they could takeaway some EP off from opponent, and make it into HP-wise energy.
EXAMPLE:
EP COST
lv:
1-6
2-7
3-9
4-11
5-13
6-15
7-17
8-19
9-21
M-23

Dmg Output:
lv:
1-5ep into 5hp and etc for below
2-7ep
3-9ep
4-11ep
5-13ep
6-15ep
7-17ep
8-19ep
9-21ep
M-23ep

So gradually, BMs will be stealing another player's EP, and changing that into HP to suit themselves. This requirement will be by SUP, and replacing DA.
Lv1-25SUP, increase by 2 per lvl.

I might need some advices on changing if you do have any problems with this ability 'Transfer'.



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/19/2012 18:30:39)

Deleted



fhiz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/19/2012 20:28:15)

At risk of being laughed at or flamed to the point of leaving the forums, I'd like to bring something up that is an issue in my eyes.

EMP.

I don't see the problem with bounty hunters having it, but I think it should be removed from cyber hunters. My reasoning is I don't think they should have a way to gain large amounts of energy while also being able to take it away. With bounty hunters it's like an eye for an eye. They take my energy but it also cost's them energy that they don't have a reliable way of getting back. While Cyber hunters can just loop static charge and emp for as long as the battle lasts. You may say "But static charge has to hit to gain back energy." Like an energy reliant build will block a tank class.

I would like to see static charge function similar to assimilation, but instead of getting half of what you take from your opponent, your opponent loses half of what you gain. So an average gain of 15 would make your opponent lose 7 appropriately.

Well what about Tactical mercenaries? They have atom smasher and reroute. Atom smasher isn't as devastating seeing as tactical mercs are another tank class and atom smasher improves with strength. It's also at the bottom of the skill tree and it requires you to wield a club. That seems fairly well balanced to me.


All in all, It's not the biggest issue at the moment because most of the cyber hunters I face just ignore emp. It's just the select few that know how to abuse the system that are the problem.


Looking forward to hearing why I'm wrong. Jk, but I would like to see someone else's take on it.



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