RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/28/2012 4:39:48)

Joe, mind the fact that Multis will need nerf (all) if Plasma Bolt and Fireball get nerfed slightly. Because Bolt/Fireball are supposed to be stronger than Multi (1v1 skill vs 2v2 skill) and it also affects TLMs and Mercs due to Multi change which would be pointless as other skills might've need small nerf as well.
Instead of nerfing damage, why not make the progression slower? If it's 4 Str/Tech per +1 damage, give it +5 and that's always less power. 100 Tech/Str with 4 stats per damage = 25 damage, 100 Tech/Str with 5 stats per damage = 20 damage. Always slower and is almost the same as taking away that -10 damage. Tech/Str builds usually have over 100 in that stat so difference is getting bigger until it reaches that -10 damage you guys want. xD

But in all fairness, I'm serious about the above and how they progress. It'd still make Multi stronger because it has less damage to start with and to catch up with Multi to Bolt, you'd need a lot of Dex to deal same damage as Bolt with let's say 100 Tech.



drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/28/2012 5:27:35)

@Trans

Not necessarily. Even before the buff of those two Bolts, they were still stronger than the Multis.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/28/2012 5:29:27)

But if it had to be changed for Multis as well, the damages, I'd go for slowing down the progression instead. It yields almost the same result and weakens the skill which is the main point, no? ;D



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/28/2012 6:07:55)

Bolts are supposed to be stronger then multis.

And, yeah I agree on slower stat progression. Better to get that instead of a weakened skill.
Or just have a different stat to progress with.



theholyfighter -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/28/2012 6:52:24)

Nvm...didn't notice the recent changes



Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/28/2012 6:59:29)

^ I hope you are joking, I really do



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/28/2012 17:40:04)

So, what do you guys think about the 'balance' change to BMs, or as we know, Bludgeon over Berzerker, anyone experienced this and felt something wrong about the new change?



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/28/2012 17:49:57)

From what I gotten to fight againts:

  • Blood Mages are definetly easier to battle.
  • They can't do as much damage like with Berserker.
  • Bludgeon is always Physical, meaning easier to defend to
  • More Blood Mages using 5 focus and defensive builds over fully offensives
  • More interesting battles
  • A cheap skill, 28 EP at max, thats like a level 1 Berserker with a point more
  • Their damage output is significantly lower

    Thats what I got.
    What do you guys think? ;)



    • liy010 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/28/2012 17:52:57)

    quote:

    Blood Mages are definetly easier to battle.
    They can't do as much damage like with Berserker.
    Bludgeon is always Physical, meaning easier to defend to
    More Blood Mages using 5 focus and defensive builds over fully offensives
    More interesting battles
    A cheap skill, 28 EP at max, thats like a level 1 Berserker with a point more
    Their damage output is significantly lower


    Didn't Battle a Blood Mage yet :\
    Sure, they can't do as much Damage, but it sure costs hell of a lot less EP
    Bludgeon is just as hard to defend. DM=Azreal's Borg's Wrath...Although, I find it a lot less accurate
    Didn't see this yet but I like :)
    Eh, I'll agree to this once I get my New Armor :)
    Exactly my point.
    It is?



    Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/28/2012 18:05:35)

    Far lesser BMs i'm fighting, and they are going creative with their builds, the bludgeon still thrives in STR builds though with a few BMs, other than that the change is better than i expected, perhaps not the best change, but a successful one.



    Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/28/2012 18:21:08)

    The most creative I saw was 31-38 +34 Primary damage, with Maxed Fireball and Maxed Bludgeon. I was happy when the Bludgeon got blocked.



    Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/28/2012 21:09:22)

    Anyone have ideas to buff mercenaries?
    How about removing the requirements off of maul and adrenaline?



    Ashari -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/28/2012 21:31:25)

    A big problem with Mercenaries seems to be their lack of any form of Health and Energy regen. It's probably the reason why Mercenaries drop off in performance so much past level 30. As the amount of HP or EP returned from Blood Lust, Reroute, Static Charge and Frenzy jump at these levels from the increased health and damage, Mercenaries fall flat and the bonus from Hybrid Armor just doesn't make up the difference in the stats they have to invest in Health or Energy. It also make them very easy to shut down with EP drains.

    Removing the requirements from Maul and Adrenaline might make builds stacking strength viable, but that leaves them with only one useful build at max level. A big concern is that Mercenaries already do quite alright from levels 1-30. Their performance only drops in the last few levels. This suggests that a few of their skills might need better scaling. I have a few ideas, but I'd like to hear what you guys would suggest.



    Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/28/2012 22:09:16)

    Mercenaries always required a regain of some kind, since they cannot come in par with everyone else due to their lack of regain of hp/ep.

    I think Adrenaline isn't a really good skill since it only comes handy at 2v2, in 1v1/jugg it's pretty bad. They should replace adrenaline with a new passive, and preferably in the upper tiers since most classes has a regain ability in either tier 1, 2 or 3. This regain should be made in a way that can actually have significant outcomes and improvements can be seen after it is implemented.
    Which means hopefully tested in all kinds of battle modes before being put into Mercs permanently. This skill must also be passive or cost 0ep, and the lower tier it is in, the more %/number it should be. Although that doesn't apply to CHs due to our PA/EMP i think. And preferably a easy requirement so this way Mercs will become in par with every other class.


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This may be off-topic but players seemingly claim others as hackers due to blocks or crits or deflects. I have already been in a few battles where i have been claimed as a hacker for no apparent logical reason, i did block a lot but i had SA and over 100dex. Not complaining just annoying when players jump to conclusions after a few blocks.



    Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/28/2012 22:16:23)

    ^

    For that reason about accusations, there should be the following ADMIN message:

    Attention, if you report someone for hacking, be 100% certain about it. Otherwise your reports will be ignored by our staff.



    Rayman -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/28/2012 22:28:38)

    A skill where the mercs gain energy when they get Hit by rage only.?



    Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/28/2012 22:43:53)

    Mercenary Move?
    Static Rage, regains both health and energy.
    1: 5% both
    2: 8% both
    3: 11% both
    4: 14% both
    5: 16% both
    6: 18% both
    7: 20% both
    8: 22% both
    9: 24% both
    10: 25% both
    The requirements are the same as static charge but strength or dexterity.
    2 turn cool down.
    Or maybe a passive to replace adrenaline.
    Energy Bloodlust? Goes up the same as regular bloodlust.



    Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 0:28:03)

    Idea for an active skill for Mercenaries:

    Reload

    Restore an amount of energy, and half as much health. Calculated by total energy and reduced by Defense/Resistance (the more Defense/Resistance, the less of an amount that Reload will restore).



    Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 0:28:56)

    @Void

    Players might ignore it as to what they are doing now, and how will staff differ truth or lies by a player's reports. They might see the message and keep reporting.

    The fact that lower DEF/RES might mean Mercs go into full STR builds, remember, they cannot gain too much EP, or else they could Zerk/maul/DS a lot of times in battle, leading to unlimited EP regain due to low RES/DEF, and they can become the next STR BM. Or they can be creative and make great builds without STR, it's a gamble really.

    @Rayman

    Good idea, you could turn a % of the rage dmg into EP for Mercenaries, or make 100% of the dmg turned into EP to discourage too many STR builds, i like it :D

    @zman 2

    So how does it work, do you attack someone with rage or normal strike or all kinds of attacking skills like Bloodlust?



    Goony -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 0:35:35)

    One of the major factors in the demise of Mercenaries above level 30 is the almost total abandoning by varium players and that is because the new classes were better!
    Why did players leave the mercenary class? They had no chance for a long time and now can really only succeed if a defensive build is used. Most players will not use mercenaries because they would prefer to play an attacking style of gameplay. To win using a mercenary in the current game you will almost certainly need to heal, atom smash and invest a lot of skill points into dexterity and technology. And even then the cyber hunter and tactical mercenary classes have tank builds that perform much better in almost all scenarios…

    With mercenaries having only 2 skills that improve with dexterity and technology (bunker buster and surgical strike) it means, to get damage output from skills that improve with strength and support, that mercenaries will need to invest stats and/or energy into those skills, thus begins the quandary when playing as a mercenary.

    Sacrifice defence and/or resistance to invest in strength, support, health and/or energy. Sacrifice your chance to get blocks or to be blocked and/or chance to get deflects or to be deflected to get more damage. It’s the definitely the hardest balancing act in Epic Duel. Me, I use a 4 focus, gamma bot, 106 dexterity, 68 tech and heal/intimidate almost every game, sometimes two heals and two HP boosters. It’s the only way to get a decent win ratio and survive!

    The thing is levels 1-30 aren’t dominated by varium, so mercenaries will be able to cope reasonably and will show a good percentage of wins against the other classes. With a very low percentage of varium players using mercenaries in the range 30-34 then obviously the percentage of wins will fail away badly.

    So, after all that, what would I suggest?
    Change intimidate so that it improves with dexterity and yes I realise it’s an interconnected skill with BM who have reflex boost. It should be ok…
    Change adrenaline so that it also improves the chance to connect with strikes, lower the rage gain and put a 6 level step in the improve. Level 1 for a Level 10 player that would be +1% rage gain and +1% connect chance and that would improve to 5% for both at level 34. The percentage step for each skill point would be 1. So, that would mean a maxed adrenaline at level 34 would be 15% for both rage gain and connect chance.



    Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 0:38:54)

    @Arevero,

    I would not think that a pulsating red warning message will be ignored by any person who can see, quite simply. [8D]

    quote:

    The fact that lower DEF/RES might mean Mercs go into full STR builds, remember, they cannot gain too much EP, or else they could Zerk/maul/DS a lot of times in battle, leading to unlimited EP regain due to low RES/DEF, and they can become the next STR BM. Or they can be creative and make great builds without STR, it's a gamble really.


    I should add, the skill works like Field Medic, no attacks are used upon activation.

    Therefor, if Reload is used by a Strength Mercenary, they would have to tolerate being a sitting duck with low Defense/Resistance... but have a better regeneration; if Reload is used by a Dexterity-Technology Mercenary, they would have less regeneration, but defend against attacks better. It would hopefully balance out. [:D]



    Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 0:49:08)

    @arevero
    LOnly attacks that don't require energy.



    Shadronica -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 0:53:43)

    Well the admin did say that they wanted all the classes to be equal and I am yet to see it.

    The whole problem began when they robbed from the original classes and gave the best to the "upgraded" classes and intertwined the skills so that a tweak to one class flows onto the next.

    That is it in a nut shell people.

    No encouragment for diversity at all.



    King FrostLich -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 1:21:49)

    How to make everything balanced once and for all:


    Step 1: Remove Plasma armor from Cyber hunter or replace emp with something else that does not abuse tanking + static charge + emp combo.
    Step 2: Make Fireball improve with support so at least support will get buffed for Blood Mages
    Step 3: Improve field medic with support but this time, stops progressing at 87 support.
    Step 4: Remove agility because it does not make epicduel epic, it's making it fastduel not epic and long as the name says so.
    Step 5: You have everything balanced once again.



    Ashari -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 1:36:53)

    quote:

    The whole problem began when they robbed from the original classes and gave the best to the "upgraded" classes and intertwined the skills so that a tweak to one class flows onto the next.


    This is why we're trying not to give Mercenaries a health or energy regen if at all possible. I've stood by my viewpoint that every class does not need the same set of mechanics in order to be balanced and I believe we can work out some solution to Mercenary class's weaknesses without making them feel like a bulkier Bounty Hunter. Also we've been switching out skills so that the overlap is less.

    It's a long process but new ultimate abilities for the evolved classes to replace Super Charge, Massacre and Surgical Strike are still planned for to give each class more uniqueness.

    Adrenaline and Intimidate could get a second look over, but there's an extent that Intimidate could be buffed without affecting low-mid level combat too much, where strength-based damage makes up the majority of damage.



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