RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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liy010 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 19:27:26)

Wait just a sec, what is the support buff good for anyway?

You took away Malf in place of it so no benefit from that and a 4 turn buff would only be enough to fire your aux once. DM well, I don't really use cuz I can just bot.

No critisizm here just a question :3



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 19:31:55)

Wootz, replacing Stun isn't feasible. Every class must have a Stun skill so that won't work. :P



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 19:33:18)

@Liy,

The downside of being able to improve 1 skill with another too much is that there is a larger opportunity to exploit damage, and thus that class will end up with a skill-tree nerf.

Just like when Strength Tactical Mercenaries lost Smokescreen, too much bonus power from the synergy that Smokescreen gave Frenzy for example.



SylvanElf -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 19:37:19)

Yep, it's official... all of the daily leaders for solo & juggernaut atm are cyber or bounty hunters.

Looks like Massacre is the common culprit to me. Debuff + most powerful % based skill in the game + rage afterwards = crazy damage.



Shadronica -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 19:38:35)

The EMP is a problem on CH. Not enough that they do great damage but rob their opponents and render them useless.

Quite apart from that the system needs an overhaul not just tweaks.

Every time a class gets a buff or a boost there is always complaints.

This game has become oriented towards defense ignoring, high damage output. Wham Bam thank you M'am.

Whilst I am more than sure that many players enjoy that style there is still some that don't.

If we wish to orient this game towards high agression tactics then make all the classes have the ability to smash the beejeezus out of each other. Don't just do it half baked.

Bring back Diamond Blades, Iron Skin and the real McCoy Supercharge! [8D]



Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 19:47:01)

Guys, I just looked at the Synergy of CH builds:

Improves with STR: Massacre, Cheap Shot
Improves with TECH: EMP Grenade (not damaging though), Plasma Grenade (doesn't even count...)
Improves with DEX: Multi-Shot
Improves with SUP: D. Matrix, Malfunction

Seriously. No synergy at all. If I have high DEX, I only have good multi-shot. No other unmissable attacks. So, make Plasma Grenade increase with DEX, or replace Plasma Armor with Technician, and remake CH mutlishot to improve with TECH.

Like really...no synergy at all...



Shadronica -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 20:02:10)

Either rework the skill trees or expand them to add some proper defense to the arsenal.



Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 20:14:13)

quote:

Basically, a Static Charge that is 4% weaker and gives health too "-.-
I don't agree with this. I mean, sure Merc is UP and all but I switched to Cyber just because of the unique Static Charge Skill.
I don't want it to be stolen by another Class.
Also, with Merc's Passive Split Armor, they will be OP at Tanking with this.
As a CH, I static charge twice for a Level 5 Heal, my only way to get health back (I get about 14 Energy per Charge) so if it gave back health too, holy crap I'd be hard to kill!
Also, lets not forget it is a % of your Damage, unaffected by opponent's defence (If it was, it would be UP) so even if you did 3 Damage, you still gain a lot of HP and at 13-16 Damage with a +34(-2) weapon, you'd be regaining 14 HP every 2 turns
What I suggest is that we either increase the cooldown time, lower the percentages, change it to only Health and no Energy or make it like Frenzy with a bit of EP regain

Good point, maybe make it 50% for both but it is damage inflicted OR give it a 3 cool down OR buff up SC so it won't be outclassed as easily.

Maybe buffing atom smasher would help. You regain 50% of the energy that was taken away from your enemy. 50 seems a bit high but remember you have to use some energy to use it.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 21:00:54)

╫╬╩╥CYBER HUNTER╥╩╬╫

Blue Ruin

Assail an enemy with 2 spinning, devastating strikes with the held Primary weapon (the player using Blue Ruin is charged with blue plasma).

Energy Required:

Level 1: 14
Level 2: 16
Level 3: 18
Level 4: 20
Level 5: 22
Level 6: 24
Level 7: 26
Level 8: 28
Level 9: 30
Level 10: 32

Damage Progressions:

Level 1: 23% more damage
Level 2: 26% more damage
Level 3: 29% more damage
Level 4: 32% more damage
Level 5: 35% more damage
Level 6: 38% more damage
Level 7: 41% more damage
Level 8: 44% more damage
Level 9: 47% more damage
Level 10: 50% more damage

Weapon Required: None
Stat Required: None
Level Required: 1
Improves With: None
Warm Up: 0
Cool Down: 2

Threaten: Decreases the Support of the selected target.

Energy Required:
Level 1: 10
Level 2: 12
Level 3: 14
Level 4: 16
Level 5: 18
Level 6: 20
Level 7: 22
Level 8: 24
Level 9: 26
Level 10: 28
Weapon Required: None
Stat: None
Level Required: 1
Improves With: Technology (+1 Support at 20 Technology; +1 Support per 4 Technology after)
Warm Up: 0
Cool Down: 4 Turns
Duration: 4 Turns
Usage: Does not apply to Strike

Static Charge: Static Charge currently improves Primary weapon damage + Strength damage. This current model can only be fully utilized by Strength users and not from other types and sorts of users of the Cyber Hunter class, and that is not something of equal opportunity, especially when we love Static Charge so much, it is a core skill of our skill tree. It has become a high priority to me now to suggest an edit to Static Charge to restore the class to a previously simpler, more hardy class. So here it is:

Static Charge: A percentage of your Primary weapon's damage is added to your energy bank in a Strike. Energy restoration never fails, however the Strike itself is blockable.

Energy Required: 0 (No Cost)

Conversion:
Level 1: 33% of the Primary Weapon's Damage to Energy
Level 2: 36% of the Primary Weapon's Damage to Energy
Level 3: 39% of the Primary Weapon's Damage to Energy
Level 4: 42% of the Primary Weapon's Damage to Energy
Level 5: 45% of the Primary Weapon's Damage to Energy
Level 6: 48% of the Primary Weapon's Damage to Energy
Level 7: 51% of the Primary Weapon's Damage to Energy
Level 8: 54% of the Primary Weapon's Damage to Energy
Level 9: 57% of the Primary Weapon's Damage to Energy
Level 10: 60% of the Primary Weapon's Damage to Energy

Weapon Required: None
Stat Required: None
Level Required: 2
Improves With: None
Warm Up: 0
Cool Down: 4

Tactics: Increases the Support of the selected target.

Energy Required:
Level 1: 16
Level 2: 17
Level 3: 18
Level 4: 19
Level 5: 20
Level 6: 21
Level 7: 22
Level 8: 23
Level 9: 24
Level 10: 25
Weapon Required: None
Stat: None
Level Required: 5
Improves With: Dexterity (+1 Support at 20 Dexterity; +1 Support per 4 Dexterity after)
Warm Up: 0
Cool Down: 2



Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 21:29:56)

Not agreed with making Static's Cooldown 4 turns. waay too much. I'm advocating for making static's cooldown back to 1. Why? Beacuse then if we gain like 14 EP per strike, it's like back before the nerf. And with a one turn cooldown, blocks arn't AS big a deal anymore. Block = oh well, in one turn I can Static Again. It's basically the same thing as before the nerf except takes care of the block problem.

And switch PA with Technician Soon. Please.

Anyone read my post about CH synergy? I mean Tech Mages are just completely killing it with Tech/Dex builds, Bolt, Overload, Rain, SuperCharge all improve with either DEX or TECH, and have some sort of Synergy between them, but we as CH have basically no synergy at all. Or remember SUP tac mercs? They got first turn + high aux damage + high multi damage...that's pretty good synergy. For CH, there arn't two damaging skills that improve with the same thing, besides STR.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 21:34:00)

@joe Then Massacre will need to be removed first and Static would have to give back even less energy per usage. If you don't you'll encourage even more Str builds using Default energy and spamming strength. Energy>Health in terms of numbers. 17 energy= 33 health if I remember FM numbers off the top of my head.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 22:09:55)

@Joe,

quote:

And switch PA with Technician Soon. Please.


Even more difficult than asking for Plasma Armour to go away, asking for Technician to come back is on the edges of oblivion. There was a very strict reason why Cyber Hunters cannot have Technician.

quote:

http://epicduel.artix.com/gamedesignnotes/frysteland-final-phase-1483

CH - Replace Technician with Plasma Armor (passively gives energy resistance)

Gives them a reliable passive with better defensive options


If you were one of the elder Cyber Hunters like me or Wootz, you would understand that Technician did not help us to survive. First of all for Technician to perform it would have needed 1 of 2 things: Dexterity or skill points. Now, Technician at level 1 barely gave 20-30 Technology points for levels 32-33, we are talking about level 5+ Technician at 35-40 Technician now. 20-30 Technology is worth about 5-8 Resistance and 35-40 for about 10-11. And because of the need to defend from energy attacks without Reroute or passive armour while having sufficient damage output, spending 5 skill points just to defend from energy would ultimately be a large waste. Then there is the other root, just have Dexterity. But why? Why not have Technology and Support for example and have flexible skill points? Why not? Because players should have the opportunity to customize their builds in any way and be able to have a fair chance in battle against at least 1 breed of build. With Energy Shield, much better than Technician for protection,

quote:

BM - Replace Technician with Energy Shield

Gives BM higher energy resistance


we Cyber Hunters would be able to support ourselves in a balanced conservation of having great protection but at the same time as high energy costs, less duration, and no game-breaking synergy like that of improving Robots drastically or Strength/Dexterity builds with Technician that support reliable Strikes AND Sidearm shots at high damage. The end.



drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 22:26:40)

The problem with Passive Armors now is that we don't have enough Stats to counter them.

Plasma Armor gives +11 RES, which is give or take 40 Stat Points.

We get a measly +132 Stat Points at the cap. Thats nearly a third of free stat points from the passive.

This is why I think we should get double the stat points upon LV-Up.



Zeoth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 22:36:01)

YUSH THAT IS GENIUS. /endsarcasm

Alright no offense drinde, but I think us getting double stat points would make it worse. We already have existing stat inflation. I believe it would make things worse.



drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 22:37:07)

Um. I don't mind your criticism, but how would that make it worse?

Enhancements would be less powerful as well.



Goony -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (5/1/2012 0:43:50)

@joe, I think you are missing the point about synergies...

Here's a few that come to mind,
EMP improves with tech and plasma armor requires tech so most cybers have a min of 28 energy drain for 10 EP which is easily regained with static charge.
Plasma provides resistance, so cybers can invest in dexterity. That improves defence and the multi that does energy damage, that works well with malfunction and the cybers high dexterity maintains the ability to use static charge reliably.
Shadow arts also works well when combined with high dexterity.

So you end up with these tanks you can't hit for enough damage or hit consistantly, before they heal again, and again, and again due to static charge... Why do you think over half the game population has become cyber hunter all of a sudden. As a mercenary, I've tried 20+ builds in the last 2 days and have no clue how to beat them... Either, I must be a bad player or Mercenaries really do need a buff!

The other popular build atm is the old tried and tested str bounty hunter, blood mages got dumped pretty quick ;) The 1v1 game just seems to be a cycle from the best build and class as per the changes to balances.



Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (5/1/2012 1:09:28)

EMP is non-damaging, which is why it was ~ when I listed it. Sure EMP improves with Tech, and PA requires Tech, and we have around 26 EMP drain.

But the thing is-I'm not seeing any Tank CH at all. I see STR Massacre Ones. I only see a couple tankish ones, but even then they have relatively high STR and go for quicker kills.

Sure CH might be able to invest points into DEX more and stuff, but looking off of our Skill Tree, basically nothing improves with each other.

QUICK BREAKDOWN OF ALL CLASSES, CORRECT ME IF YOU SEE ANY OVERSIGHTS BY ME. VERY POSSIBLE!

Mercs, invest in TECH for high Bunker high Surge Strike. Wait, now that I look at Mercs, I don't understand why a high SUP high TECH build doesn't work. High SUP = High Field Commander, High Artillery Strike, High Intimidate, High Auxilary Damage. High TECH for High Bunker and High Surge Strike. At least two unblockable damaging skills improve with either SUP or TECH. Lack of EP regain is a problem. They need to have a EP regain system. Then they'll be back up to par.

Bounty Hunters: Points into Reflex Boost, points into Stun Grenade and Multi-Shot (both improve with DEX). Have decent TECH and rest of points into DEX. There you go. At least two unblockable damaging skills improve with DEX for BH.

Tech Mages: I already went over this. Bolt/Overload/Rain/SuperCharge = Dex and Tech abuse = at least 2 unblockable damaging skills for DEX and TECH.

Blood Mages: I don't even need to go over this. Fireball, Gun (Deadly Aim), Zerker Bludgeon all improve with STR. Granted, Zerker Bludgeon is blockable, but that still leaves at least 2 unblockable damaging skills with STR (although I see less and less STR BM by the day)

Tactical Mercenaries: See Merc. SUP Tac Merc. High Aux Damage, High Artillery Strike, High Field Commander -> High Frenzy/Double Strike. Etc...paired with good TECH and not too much DEX (mineral armor), you got a great Surge Strike as a finisher.

Cybers: Only damaging things we have that are "synergized" are Massacre and Cheap Shot, but Cheap Shot is blockable. Improves with STR. So Skill-Wise, we have no two damaging skills that improve with the same thing. That's it. No two other damaging skills improve with the same thing. Which is why I usually see alot of STR Cybers. Contrary to you guys, I don't see too many Tank CH at all...

Therefore I propose to buff the grenades in both CH and BH (they're lackluster compared to Overload anyway), and make a new skill that replaces Multi-Shot that improves with TECH. Then, Void, having Technician instead of Plasma Armor will give us some interesting builds. Plus, +11 Resistance = 10 points spent into PA and 43 TECH needed. Why not just spend 10 points into Technician, have lots of DEX anyway, and increase your TECH by about 11 resistance points anyway, have a counter for Malfunction, and also have an increased Deflection Chance now? And it gives you more builds to choose from! And yes, I am not an Older Generation CH. I switched about the time they implemented Plasma Armor.

Note that the above Synergy ideas are not by any means to be correct. I am not suggesting that if you make a build according to what I said, it will work beacuse the skills dictate it so. I'm merely pointing out how skills in each tree EXCEPT for Cyber Hunter synergize together better than Cyber Hunters.

quote:

And because of the need to defend from energy attacks without Reroute or passive armour while having sufficient damage output, spending 5 skill points just to defend from energy would ultimately be a large waste.


Unless I am misinterpreting this, what you are saying is a good thing. Spending 5 points into Technician to give us +11 Resistance, versus spending 10 points into Plasma Armor for +11 Resistance? Save 5 Skill points, get better results! Heck, even if you spend 8 points into Technician, you get more than 11 resistance bonus, AND you save a couple skill points! So, unless I'm misinterpreting that, I don't know why it was a bad thing. Correct me if I'm wrong.

So yeah, sorry for long post, but just my ideas.

PLEASE GUYS, IF YOU THINK I'M ADVOCATING FOR CH BUFF KUZ THEY ARE "UP" (They are not UP, they are decent and fine, but personally I think they are less OP than people claim them to be), I AM NOT. I AM MERELY STATING THE SYNERGY BETWEEN THE SKILLS IN EACH CLASS AND POINTING OUT WHERE I THINK CHANGES TO THE CH SKILL TREE CAN BE MADE!



PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (5/1/2012 1:23:05)

@Joe10112: Cyber Hunters do not have technician. that is why so many complain about Plasma Armour being in the skill tree at all. misunderstood the comment, sorry :)

I use a high support/tech build on my TLM. Level 4 Field Commander gives +50 strength, its good in 2v2 cause you can stick it on your partner but unless your multi crits,
the dmg you dish out is too low. so even though the build is impressive at times, it is very limited overall. the alternate build is ridiculous tech, a high Surgical Strike and
use your aux to deal damage until you can use SS. same problem though, support is a weak stat, mainly because Aux has such a big cooldown. EMP wrecks it too :(



frogbones -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (5/1/2012 1:38:54)

@ Joe:

While I appreciate a well-written post, as yours is, I still have to say this:

"Come on, man!"

It is simply undeniable that CHs are too good, and Mercs need some help. Trying to argue otherwise just makes you look biased.

Edit @ Pivotal: Plus the fact that that build is ruined by one or two EMP/energy drains.



Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (5/1/2012 1:52:55)

quote:

It is simply undeniable that CHs are too good, and Mercs need some help. Trying to argue otherwise just makes you look biased.


Thanks. Sure CH are good, but not as OP as before. Mercs help? I can see that. But then again, I see plenty of decent Mercs. Slap an energy regain onto them and they're up to balance in my opinion. The only way I beat a huge TECH or huge SUP abuser is yes, to EMP them. Only way. Replace Adrenalin with some sort of energy regain and Mercs are back up for buisness. I'm a CH myself, and I don't want to end up looking like Hun (no offense), who argues BMs are UP for some reason. I'm merely stating the Synergy imbalance and providing some solutions. It's (basically) undeniable about what I posted up there. The Skill Tree speaks for itself. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not clamoring that CH are UP and need Buff, but I'm stating that "Hey, look, we have some strengths and some weaknesses. Here are some things I think that we can improve on for CH."

@Pivotal: I know. Cybers don't have Technician. They have PA. I am a CH myself. Where did you get the notion that I stated Cybers currently have Technician? So I can go back and reword it. Good to hear that my idea for Tac Merc wasn't completely off, it seems you have relatively good times with it. But out of all the battles today let's say, how many do you get EMPd in? For me, on average, maybe 5-10% of the battles I fight I get EMPd. Seriously.





Goony -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (5/1/2012 2:03:01)

Err Joe, EMP/atom/assim! Mercs with that build get their energy stolen real quick ;) Then they have nothing! Also, malfunction decreases technology and the only way mercs can counter nerfs is with the assault bot, intim needs to be fixed, it hasn't worked for some time since the melee attacks got shifted to wep damage!



Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (5/1/2012 2:10:07)

@^: Exactly why I suggested Mercs should have a EP regain/EP steal ability. Then they would be back up to par. I mean against Mercs every time I EMP, so I can assume I know how some Mercs feel when their build gets utterly destroyed like that. So implement a EP regain for them, or an EP steal similar to Assimilation. Then they're back up in buisness.

Going to add that to my log block of text...

EDIT: You edited your post when I posted my post Goony lol. In response-don't we all use (Rusted) Assault Bot to counter Malfs/Smokes? But Mercs have +6/+6 anyway, and combined with a +6 (at least) from armor, they are basically equal to Tac Merc and CH in terms of passive defense...

And how does Intimidation not work? I'm confused by your wording there slightly, sorry.



Goony -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (5/1/2012 2:31:31)

Ok, the devs will never give mercs an EP/HP regain skill... Another way needs to be discussed!

Malf doesn't reduce the armor or hybrid, but it does reduce technology, earlier you stated mercs should use a tech build, cybers have the counter to that build... It's really quite easily countered and as soon as mercs start investing points into Energy, they have to compromise elsewhere and that is normally in str and support. So, when you get EMP once and normally twice per battle and the cyber can regain energy and heal or malfunctiion multiple times per game it gets pretty lame being a mercenary.

I have a lot of fun playing my alts, tech/blood mage, tac merc and cybers all have some wonderful synergies when making a build.

It's a shame that mercenaries can no longer use strength builds, due to the fact that most cybers and BH will block the living daylights out of them or steal their energy... I really wanted the new passive (adrenaline) to be a passive connect chance, but we got a rage build instead and then they changed rage so that tanks were nerfed.

Oh, I forgot to mention about intimidate. They switched all melee skills from % gain using strength and wepon damage to weapon damage alone. Intimidate does not reduce wep damage, only strength, so skills like massacre still get the bonus damage at the same rate even if the mercenaries have used intimidate. With the weapon damage being the highest factor in the damage anyway, it reduced the effectiveness of intimidate by quite a margin... Hope that helps!



PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (5/1/2012 3:29:50)

@Joe: that post seem to imply you were arguing why it was better to spend points in technician instead of Plasma Armor.
if I do 1v1 on my TLM, every single CH EMP's me, some more than others. it is so profitable to use it, and all CH have it.

I do think support/tech BM would work, if you had the right gear, and Deadly Aim would give you a decent attack to
go with Aux. Reflex boost, Energy Shield and Intimidate all improve with support too.



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (5/1/2012 3:36:58)

I will still put forth my plead for PA to be gone, in case you haven't read my previous plead, then i suggest you do on page 24, now back on the CH scheme.

The devs/mods/BT are wanting the best for the players, what they give us, is what they try to help us on, so far, PA isn't working that way, so i state once again for it to be removed.

So many times people repeats, 'they have stated, it will stay, so live with it', well i want them or 'you' to realise, they are buffing/nerfing/changing skills/classes for US, the players who make the most out of this game. So now the players of the CH want a change for their better good, is that too much ask? Is attempting to listen to the player's too much to make out of?

I just WANT everyone to know, the devs make things for us, and for the history of ED, and we as players are pretty much 80% of that, so what we wish in our opinions deserves a look-over, and at least an attempt, into making it happen. As Joe10112 pointed out, our skills aren't synergized at all, NOT EVEN ONE BIT. And as raynidays56 posted, we are VOICING our opinions, then this is a discussion thread, voices needs to be heard and put into mind. The thing that IS synergizing EVERY SINGLE skill we have, is Plasma Armor, and i believe everyone sees the logic in that, ANY passive armor, will synergize, but the problem is right now, we want creativeness to step in, and PA is consuming too much skill points, hence removing is the best option.

I don't think PA taking out is bad, and i will keep stating this because i know we can make a change, and i believe their are other friends who are backing up this statement. [:)]

@G00ny

Revamp Mercs or add heal to improve by support, either way SUP needs a bit f a buff so it can be in par with other stats, no dead skills/stats are needed, make use of them.


@Pivotal

Technician would consume far less points to use than PA, regardless of Passive, it allows more builds to step in, we'll see what happens though ;)




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