RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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frogbones -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 12:34:46)

Why are players still lobbying for PA to be removed? The devs, in their infinite wisdom, have unequivocably stated that PA is staying.

The last remaining hope for CH balance, therefore, is to remove EMP.

Get on board!



Zeoth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 12:55:07)

^
How about we don't. It doesn't matter. The balance team has clearly stated that they will no longer touch CH. So maybe IF you stop lobbying for an Emp nerf we will stop lobbying for PA removal. YOU get on board.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 12:57:34)

Kinda same point I try to make although change should be due-in. So basically what I wanna fight for is better CH with Plasma, we can hope at least.
Str builds won't even care about dumb EMP, they can crash through Tanks and they'll just give them quicker rage so they are same. It's others who depend on Energy will suck out because their strategy will be gone and their damage won't be enough to stop heal loop. So it's just brainless builds that aren't affected, that's something new. ;o



Zeoth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 13:04:54)

^
Yea that is new. Brainless builds happen to be the most irritating and hard to deal with though -.-



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 13:13:54)

Solution: De-educate ED players even further?



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 13:20:30)

@Frogbones,

quote:

Get on board (school bus)!


quote:

Its OK mom, his name is Frogbones

[;)][:)][:D]

Anyhow, one cannot "use" a passive skill, only direct it in battles. Active skills have the choice of action which makes them a fun and tactical way of playing EpicDuel.



comicalbike -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 13:32:48)

no more nerfs just buffs



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 13:36:45)

@comicalbike
Mercs - need a buff anyway so you're right there.
BHs - they are a bit weak so buff is only option here.
BMs - Str builds may be fine now, not sure if Tech/Dex builds could use a buff there.
CHs - seeing as no changes will be made anymore or for now, then I'd just suggest revamping EMP or taking it away so small nerf but may only hope.
TMs - could use skill tree re-arranging as skills are fine, just better arrangement could be seen as buff. xD
TLMs - they are fine now.

I see need for maybe one nerf (CHs), but that's a maybe, and mainly buffs. Would be fun to see a positive change once in a while. (Y)



frogbones -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 13:37:14)

Thanks for the memory and laugh, Void!

I call road triiiiiiiiiiiiiiiip ....................



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 14:03:29)

Right now I have a Technology heavy build with:

4-1-10

0-1-0

10-0-0

10-0-0

It has a weakness, Strength, BUT, I have the BioBorg, so I can turn my fate around. 'v'

So far far I have been using an Assault Bot, but other than Technology for Surgical Strike, I honestly do not need to spend a turn buffing lost stats.

If only I had a fantastic +10 P armour with emphasis on Technology...

But anyways its going great, and expect to see some killer pictures for that thread called Tactical Mercenaries. 'v'



Zeoth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 14:45:12)

Trans, I can say that BM tech/builds are lacking. And the dex builds are even weaker due to scaling. They are effective but still not good enough to actively compete.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 14:57:25)

Exactly. We should see really buffs from now onwards to all classes but CHs, and I wonder if these buffs would average out the power of CHs, rather than nerf them.
I mean nefing one class will still require buffing others as they are weaker than they should be so if we buff up classes which need to be (and rearranging skill tree for Mercs and TMs as well), then CHs power will be slightly lower because other classes will catch up.

We can't say anything until then really if CH is fine. Although I still say EMP and Atom needs to be revamped overall, not CHs but whole EMP. So Lvl 1 isn't taking away too much or being abused, and Atom slightly lowered but stronger than EMP (Tier 2 EMP vs Tier 4 Atom + EMP is unblockable and Atom isn't so it can get slightly more power because of such).

Besides buffs are good way to make players happy! CHs would maybe have a bit harder time to beat other classes then, so creativity or strategy would hit them in the face more. xD



rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 15:17:41)

Yay! The arguing is over...time...to...switch topics (rawr) :)


How about buffing BH a bit so they can be able to survive without Strength Builds? I have seen a few out there, for instance, Fay Beee uses a 5 Focus build now, I believe.


Mercs are still in dire need of a good buff. Possibly an energy-regainer or a some other passive (bide: increases rage gain and auxiliary damage) Improves with none


Lvl 1: 5% more rage gain and 10% more auxiliary damage
Lvl 2: 10% more rage gain and 13% more auxiliary damage
Lvl 3: 13% more rage gain and 16% more auxiliary damage
Lvl 4: 16% more rage gain and 18% more auxiliary damage
Lvl 5: 18% more rage gain and 20% more auxiliary damage
Lvl 6: 19% more rage gain and 21% more auxiliary damage
Lvl 7: 20% more rage gain and 22% more auxiliary damage
Lvl 8: 21% more rage gain and 23% more auxiliary damage
Lvl 9: 22% more rage gain and 24% more auxiliare damage
Lvl 10: 23% more rage gain and 25% more auxiliary damage


Tell me what you think. Is it what the Merc needs, or what? :)


Oh, and PM'd to me from Lycus
quote:

...right now, Cyber Hunters are rather balanced and disturbing that when a lot of Cyber Hunters would absolutely hate it if we got rid of Plasma Armour, would be a risk not exactly worth taking.

Lycus 4/30/2012 12:25:57



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 15:18:15)

quote:

We are actual CHs here, i would acknowledge ANYONE who has been a CH for at least 2 months, and know our trouble. Builds are HARD TO MAKE, especially trying to tone down OPness due to PA, and no, 'try not using PA' is not an answer, NO CLASS needs a DEAD skill.


Ohaider! I've been a Cyber Hunter since September. Thanks!

Anyway, back on topic. (Lets make a colour!)

So from when I went off. This came:
Remove Plasma Armor, remove EMP Grenade, bring back the old skill tree, comparing Atom Smasher and Assimilation to EMP Grenade, and the other crap you guys wrote.

Trans, for one, did make a great suggestion and the new skill he suggested would fix anything that you think is wrong with the class, almost every skill will have fixed damage/defense/resistance/heal.
But, Cyber Hunters are good now, leave it to rest. I don't know about the others, but Bounty Hunters are begining to rise, again. Lately, I get my ass owned by them. Especially by Keep Walking. I don't know how the class is up againts the other ones, but they are pretty well prepared for Cyber Hunters. They can still do major damage even with my tankiness.

Mercenaries, as Ashari said already, she'd like to hear our thoughts on making it equall to the other classes for the higher levels, meaning 30-34. Why don't we do that, then? We had a few posts about that and then someone turn the discussion on this.

Tech Mages, they are fine. Maybe a skill tree re-make would be nice. Who knows?

Blood Mages, they are good now. Their strenght build isn't completly crippled and they can still use and the other classes can counter them easier. Five focus Blood Mages are great. My friend used to be one and he did great. Sure, it isn't as fast as the Strenght one, but its more fun, atleast in my opinion. Dexterity builds are pretty darn good too, Overload and Plasma Rain increases by Dexterity and they have good two offensive skills to do enough damage. And it works well with Deadly Aim, too!

Tactical Mercenaries. Thank you for being finally balanced!




rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 15:19:06)

Look up wootz :(

And...and Cyber Hunter since October! :D



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 15:24:20)


Yeah, I sent a PM to you. Do you like my colour, btw?

Anyway,
what class would you guys like to discuss now: Blood Mages, Tech Mages, Mercenaries, Tactical Mercenaries or Bounty Hunters?
My vote is for Mercenaries.



Shadronica -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 15:29:45)

All I can say about balance at this point is ... I certainly hope that the new mod/test team can help to bring some order to this chaos.

I have stepped into the arena with my mage and merc over the last few weeks. Admittedly I haven't done much with my builds in a long time but from what I have seen it makes me shudder.

My mage had a glimmer of hope before Rabblefroth put the skids on her attack skills. (Funny how my mage got dealt with mighty fast but the real culprits of this game are allowed to remain intact to run riot.)

My tank merc was rendered pretty much useless. I'm gobsmacked.

Playing defensive on this game is no longer an option. From what I have seen it is all about dealing huge amounts of damage especially from the "upgraded" classes.

My tank merc was torn through like I had paper for armor.

I know my battle skills are rusty but honestly this is no semblance of a strategic game anymore.

Just choose from an "upgrade" and work out how to deal the greatest amount of damage. Or in CH case damage and EMP so your opponent is rendered totally useless.

I would still like to suggest looking at reworking the skill trees.

Ashari mentioned that she didn't want to touch the mercs dex/skills because it will effect the lower levels. If the skill trees were reworked then this wouldn't be a problem. Is there some kind of problem with looking at the skill trees?



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 15:41:38)

Well I do have suggestion about EMP and Atom on 1st page. ;)

quote:

EMP with high Tech and even low Level can be quite deadly, or even an overkill, for any build - with Reroute or not & high EP or not. I suggest taking the Tech-improvement away and make it scaled by level + have fixed ranges. So you have to train it to drain more EP instead of now. Numbers would be lowered down as well to match those of Atom Smasher or a bit lower as it's unblockable unlike Atom.

AND
quote:

Next up is Atom Smasher. At Lvl 1, it's already deadly due to improvement with Str (higher damage = higher EP drain) so I'd suggest making it based on weapon's damage only and ignoring defences but 80%, nothing else. Keeping %s the same but take away stat damage, so if weapon does 34 damage, enemy has 25-30 Def/Res, and Atom drains 60% then 17 Energy. Currently with decent Str build + Lvl 1 Atom Smasher, it can drain a lot of EP. Yes it can be blocked but drain is variable at different ranges and can prove to be better than EMP.


For once, if EMP was fixed and a bit weaker than Atom (as explained by tiering and unblocable fact), I wouldn't care if EMP stayed with CHs then. But one thing regarding Atom AND EMP - why should it be so strong at just Lvl 1? Skills should be trained to be effective unless you talk about Stun which is luck. And there's no other way than changing both skills to fixed numbers.
Energy drainers should be strategical skills, won't you agree? You aren't meant to spam them if you can just to completely destroy everyone and restricting it ain't good idea. Best way to use EMP/Assimilate/Atom is before they use their Ultimate move or something. Delaying is always good as you might win but if it misses then bummer. But it's strategy, no?

For BHs, they need small buff so I thought SA buff, +1% to Connect per 2 Lvls which is good enough for small boost and could favour CHs too. And as SC can be blocked, SA would definitely help it. :D Opinions?

I won't explain it all in detail, it's in my post on 1st page where I explained it all, included all classes on how they could be improved so yeah.

@Shad
quote:

Is there some kind of problem with looking at the skill trees?

Nope. There shouldn't be as long as they are laid out properly so access to skills is easy for everyone. Besides Tier 2 skills are available at Lvl 2 and Tier 3 at Lvl 5 so it's even less of a problem! :)

Seeing as topic is also Merc: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=20281460
Anyone has opinions about this post? Mainly the skill-tree suggestion. ^^



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 15:42:38)

quote:

Playing defensive on this game is no longer an option.

Not my case.

quote:

My tank merc was torn through like I had paper for armor.

Yeah, from those rare moments that I see a Mercenary, I easily destroy them through the armor. But I would like to try a build on the class, though. I'm just lacking a character.

quote:

I would still like to suggest looking at reworking the skill trees.

Ashari mentioned that she didn't want to touch the mercs dex/skills because it will effect the lower levels. If the skill trees were reworked then this wouldn't be a problem. Is there some kind of problem with looking at the skill trees?


Hellzyeah!
Lets look in the skill trees.

Lets start with Mercenaries:

Field Medic - Fair thing is fair
Double Strike- It is able to do some decent damage, and I think that the skill is in good shape as it is
Hybrid Armor - What I would suggest is to buff it. Or atleast take down the requirment.
Field Commander - The skill was great in Beta for the Strenght builds. I'm not sure how it would act today. Last time I saw it, some guy used maxed Bunker Blaster and maxed Field Commander, I broke him before he got to do a turn after FM.
Intimidate - It might need a slight rework. Or a slightly lower stat progression
Bunker Blaster - Its still a great skill. It destroys in lower levels.
Artilery Strike - Its still a good skill, although it doesn't have any special effects now. I don't see anyone use it, though.
Berserker - If it isn't blocked. It is awesome. Thats it.
Stun Maul - Same as Berserker, the chance to stun is great.
Surgical Strike - I think it is a bit weaker then the other Ultimate skills. Almost every Mercenary and Tactical Mercenary has it, and it doesn't really work out that good. Especially if they never get enough Energy to use it.
Adrenaline - Its a great passive, maybe adding another effect to it would work well. Raynie suggested one, I suggested one. Mynes at the 23th page if you'd like to see it.
Atom Smasher - A great way to reduce Energy.



frogbones -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 15:47:06)

Believe it or not, but I actually think Mercs are *gasp* very close to being balanced. Of course, mine is a full varium 34, but I *think* I have stumbled upon a build that can hang with the big boys. I say this because Merc is a multidimensional class, one that can adapt to different types of classes and builds. And that is why, in my opinion, they are the most fun class to use.

If Mercs were to be buffed in some way, I don't necessarily think it would require an energy-gain or health-gain skill. I wouldn't be unhappy if all that was done was to slightly buff Atom Smasher and Adrenaline, and maybe Intimidate, too.



Shadronica -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 15:57:04)

Froggy I personally think that Mercs need a skill that is helped by dex. In fact Goony made a post back on page 20? somewhere there anyway.

Mercs have so little skills that pivot around dex and lets face it you need dex to make a connect for a start.

I am glad you have found a build that is currently working for mercs but come back and let us know how that build is working for you in one weeks time.

ED has a wonderful way of allowing you to have great success with a new build for a day or two and then tossing you onto the effluent pile. ;)



Zeoth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 16:05:08)

Mercs balanced?! *Gasp* I had no idea. /endsarcasm
Sure Varium mercs can we somewhat balanced, problem is the majority of Mercs are non Varium so your point is invalid. If non Varium can't compete with the class they choose, you cannot say the class is balanced.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 16:11:00)

Lemme quote one thing about Mercs from 'Shari:
quote:

A big concern is that Mercenaries already do quite alright from levels 1-30. Their performance only drops in the last few levels. This suggests that a few of their skills might need better scaling. I have a few ideas, but I'd like to hear what you guys would suggest.

It's the last Levels where Mercs start to suck. Before that they are fine, I got one at Lvl 29 and it's really a pain to fight higher Lvls than me as one.



rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 16:24:02)

I know...I have an alt Merc and the poor girl sucks :( I had her as a High Technology, Maxed Hybrid, all around balanced type, and no a level 21 BM or a Crit Happy Bunker buster merc rips her to shreds.... poor girl :(


Here she is...

http://epicduel.artix.com/charpage.asp?id=rosalie%20rayne (dont play that much on here)


http://epicduel.artix.com/charpage.asp?id=ainsley%20rayne (my super awesome strength tech mage :D)



khalidon5000 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 16:33:55)

Raynie i like your idea for increased auxiliary damage!!!
It would definitely be useful>



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