RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 17:19:40)

I don't like the ideas of counters, Void.
Looks more like a set match rather then unexpected turn of events (which I like more then winning every battle).

Let's rather forget the luck/gambling talk here.
Why don't we pass onto balance? Which is the point of this thread after all.

So, Ashari said that she would be glad to hear our ideas and how we would help the class to get in better shape on the higher levels (30-34).
So, lets get to it, then! Shall we?



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 17:21:17)

@Wootz,

Not quite a set match, players still have the freedom of choice and the uncertainty of counters (such as "did this player use a block counter? I'll strike him anyways and see what happens" and then he/she ends up being blocked). If you do not like my idea, no worries. However if you have any suggestions to improve the idea then they are welcome.

quote:

Trans: Funny thing, I see nothing about LUCK being mentioned in these quotes you have given me. And I have proven that luck =/= gambling so there's no problem with luck, not it's possible to remove it in a PvP game. Ever.


Everything is possible. You would be cynical to think otherwise. And luck is in fact how gambling is formed. You take a group of cavemen and give them one piece of meat enough for one body. To determine the winner they must settle a deal. They all throw a rock at a jaguar who is sleeping. Whoever woke the jaguar was crowned the winner of the meat. And there you have prehistoric gambling from a lucky toss. Simple as that.



liy010 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 17:28:12)

I just thought of something...Disconnections are due to luck. You got lucky that the other person's computer crashed and they disconnected giving you a free win. There's an example of Luck :3



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 17:29:50)

True that Liy.



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 17:34:54)

Hahah, yeah Liy, thats the real luck!

Void,
How about lowering the number of max counter to two while maintaining the current block/deflect/critical/etc. system to work alongside it?
And adding a fixed % to show if a player has used an counter.

Critical counter, for example 70% to be shown,
Block counter, 30% to be shown,
etc.
----------
I did not completly understand if the current block/deflect/critical/etc. system will stay, so don't mind me.



liy010 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 17:36:33)

Oh yeah, I forgot to add...

quote:

Guys, this is what I am talking about. Gambling, and the assorted, is not good for everyone. I want everyone to have an equal opportunity in EpicDuel, and by working on counters to use strategically in battle and not put your fate in Titan's RNG hands, I hope to make EpicDuel a more fun game for PvP.


Yup, that'll happen as soon as they get rid of Varium, enchancements, Decrease the level Range of the "Random" matchups so that you can only get players your level. And maybe make a "Loan" because lets face it, some players burn throw credits like gasoline and by level 34, they have just a primary so really crappy stats. They need more credits to get sidearms/aux/armours but how are they going to get those credits, they lose every battle they fight because of their stats.

I purpose the Credit Loan. You may loan out as much as 30,000 Credits (Which would be enough to buy some average gear) and so you would be at -30,000 Credits. Every time you get credits in any way, they are returned so if I won a 1vs1 (32 credits), I would have -29,968 Credits.
At negative credits, you cannot buy anything (Not even boosters. Hey, it's gotta have some consequence, right?) and you may not take out another loan until you return the current one.

@Depressed i have some questions on the last post of the previous page :3

One last question. Most BMs have at least 16-20+34 Damage if not, more. If they put the Crit Counter on their Rage and pair it up with Zerker (Yeah, I know it's gone but Mercs can use it...) that's 190% Damage...Almost x2 combine it with ignoring 100% defences, well you have an instant 100 Damage tool.

Cheers :)



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 17:50:48)

^

That's actually a great idea to help the beginners who end up at level 25 without any equipment, nice idea Liy! I would suggest making the loan at a maximum of 50, 000 though. That gives free-2-play enough credits for a full set of level 34 equipment + a rusted bot.

Cool, and to add on, since you cannot buy anything, everything you sell goes towards the loan as well. No equipment purchased via loaned credits may be sold until the entire debt has been paid.

quote:

One last question. Most BMs have at least 16-20+34 Damage if not, more. If they put the Crit Counter on their Rage and pair it up with Zerker (Yeah, I know it's gone but Mercs can use it...) that's 190% Damage...Almost x2 combine it with ignoring 100% defences, well you have an instant 100 Damage tool.


Good suggestion, but it looks like I'm stuck with skills not being allowed to interact with counters, so worrying about critical Berzerkers for example is in the wind. [;)]



Zeoth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 17:53:58)

Credit loans sound like a great idea. Do you think you could have smaller incraments as well? Say someone is 6-7k creds away from something, but they don't want a huge 30k Cree debt looming over them, maybe smaller incraments like 10k as well?



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 17:53:57)

How about being able to collect money and return Credits as you wish.
But having to pay a set % of the loan on the server restart.



liy010 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 18:27:16)

@Zeoth

Yup :)

quote:

I purpose the Credit Loan. You may loan out as much as 30,000 Credits (Which would be enough to buy some average gear) and so you would be at -30,000 Credits. Every time you get credits in any way, they are returned so if I won a 1vs1 (32 credits), I would have -29,968 Credits. At negative credits, you cannot buy anything (Not even boosters. Hey, it's gotta have some consequence, right?) and you may not take out another loan until you return the current one.


@Wootz: Interest...Well there are 2 problems with that. First, if say...an LQS is in stock and I really want an item so I take out a loan. 5 min later my family has to go out on a 3 month "Surprise" Vacation with no internet access well, to put it simply I'm screwed. The next thing is that if I'm an experienced ED player, I can hold myself up pretty well, then I can take out the 30,000 Credits and since you can return at your own pace, I won't ever return it. Interest will be piling up but I wouldn't give a rat's behind because I don't intend to pay it off anyway. That's like a free 30,000 Credits

Wait, scrap that, I read wrong...But what if, I have no credits at the server restart?



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 18:40:55)

You'd be in minus then. :P
Lets say you got 20,000
You loaned 30,000
Then you would have -10,000 Credits :P



liy010 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 18:49:15)

Oh, yeah...That makes sense...

quote:

But having to pay a set % of the loan on the server restart.


I'm saying what would happen if I had no credits at the time. Like...

I load 30,000 Credits. I'm at -30,000 now. I battle a couple of times and get 14,000 Credits and buy say...Hunter's Cannon. 2 min later. Server Restart. Whadd'ya know, I'm outta credits!



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 18:54:32)

Lets say it'll take an 1,000 per restart.
Then you'd just have -1000 Credits and you'll owe 29,000



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 18:54:56)

How about, there is the option to purchase a piece of equipment via loaned credits up to your limit of 30k?

And after every X battles, a % of the total due loan is paid out?



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 19:02:06)

Oh! Thats even better Void!
Lets say its 15 battles. You win 10 of them, and you got 32 Credits by each. So you got 320 Credits. And say that you pay 50% of your Credits to the loan. You pay 160, and have 160 Credits left. Sounds like a fair deal! ^^



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 20:03:10)

quote:

Personally, I have had enough of gambling my fate in EpicDuel. If I have a massive Support advantage then I should be the one who has control over the influence of Support. Vice-versa for enemies who have the same advantage over me.

I am suggesting that "luck" is no longer a gamble but instead something strategic in each and every one of our EpicDuel battles. How this would work is that we play using counters of stat-specific battle mechanics like blocking or going critical.

Update: I am 50% through finishing the picture diagrams.

For Support's case, first turn is a once per battle occurrence, so I recommend that whoever has the highest Support stat total should go first... guaranteed. Support also manifests critical hits and stun resistance, and these would occur more than once. So now I will introduce this idea of counters. Counters are the number of charges which an ability can be used for. If I have 5 critical hit charges, I can then choose to critical hit a maximum of 5 times. I would have calculated these counters by simply the number of stat points, but then there are no real benefits to using Focus... or having 2 equally Support savvy players critical hit 10 times under their control (easily exploitative). So, these "counters" would be calculated by the difference in stat points between opposing sides.

I was thinking of a progression like:

PROTOTYPE

10+ Stat Difference: 1 Counter

30+ Stat Difference: 2 Counters

50+ Stat Difference: 3 Counters [MAXIMUM]

OR

ADVANCED

10+ Stat Difference: 1 Counter

20+ Stat Difference: 2 Counters

30+ Stat Difference: 3 Counters

40+ Stat Difference: 4 Counters

50+ Stat Difference: 5 Counters [MAXIMUM]

The mechanics of counters run like this:

  • players initially receive all of their counters at the start of a battle

  • players may use as many of their counters in a battle that they have

  • using a counter does not take up a turn, and may only be used on the player's turn

  • stun resist counters have 1 turn cooldowns, deflect counters have 2 turn cooldowns, block counters have 3 turn cooldowns, and critical counters have 4 turn cooldowns

  • all counters have a 1 turn warmup

  • counters remain in play until they are used

  • counters can stack, 2 block counters at once means that the next 2 incoming Strikes will be blocked

  • counters are not visible in battle to other players

  • counters do not effect any skills

  • counters only affect weapons (Primary, Sidearm, Auxiliary, Robot)

  • skills that go critical (like Bunker Buster) are now guaranteed, however, their damage must be reduced, energy costs raised, and their cooldowns raised (reasonably)

  • skills that stun (like Stun Grenade) are now guaranteed, however, their damage must be reduced, energy costs raised, and their cooldowns raised (reasonably)

  • all skills cannot be blocked, deflected, or go critical

  • anticounters are temporary counters that initialize when a nerf (Smokescreen, Malfunction) or buff (Reflex Boost, Technician) skill is used. Anticounters only last for as long as the inflicting skill does

  • anticounters do not destroy normal counters

  • block anticounters, are created by Reflex Boost that creates 1 temporary block or Smokescreen that creates 1 temporary anti-block counter. Anti-block counters temporarily prevent the target from using 1 block counter until Smokescreen wears off or is used to negate 1 block counter. Reflex Boost gives 1 temporary block counter that is removed when Reflex Boost wears off or is used to block 1 Strike. If the target has 2 block counters stacked and 1 anti-block counter, 1 block counter will be negated (temporarily), and the other counter used to block a Strike. If an anticounter interacts with a block counter, the anticounters will disappear but normal counters will not (the anticounter overrides 1 counter)

  • deflect anticounters, are created by Technician that creates 1 temporary deflect or Malfunction that creates 1 temporary anti-deflect counter. Anti-deflect counters temporarily prevent the target from using 1 deflect counter until Malfunction wears off or is used to negate 1 delfect counter. Technician gives 1 temporary deflect counter that is removed when Technician wears off or is used to deflect 1 shot. If the target has 2 deflect counters stacked and 1 anti-deflect counter, 1 deflect counter will be negated (temporarily), and the other counter used to deflect a shot. If an anticounter interacts with a deflect counters, the anticounters will disappear but normal counters will not (the anticounter overrides 1 counter)

  • specialty weapons (celtic weapons/azrael weapons), now give 1 counter to the specific mechanism (eg, Azrael Bane gives 1 critical counter, Celtic Cleaver gives 1 anti-block counter)

  • for this to work in 2v2 and in Juggernaut, the highest stat of the players of 1 side are compared to the highest stat of the players of the other side (eg, Team1A has 40 Support, Team1B has 70 Support, Team2A has 60 Support, Team2B has 20 Support... Team1B's Support is compared to Team2A's Support, and Team1A's Support compared to Team2B's Support)

    But please, do comment, question, and feedback your thoughts to me! If anything is wrong, I would appreciate if you can inform me of any loopholes or missing information, and I will make amends!



    • ScarletReaper -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 21:34:54)

    That would be awesome. I have a level 26 merc that was my first ever character back in beta, but I messed around trying too many builds cause I was new, so now he has the lamp post for primary. that's it. no sidearm, aux, or armor. I would actually be able to fix him if this were fixed and have my character with my beta tester achievement back!!



    liy010 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 21:41:54)

    quote:

    skills that go critical (like Bunker Buster) are now guaranteed, however, their damage must be reduced, energy costs raised, and their cooldowns raised (reasonably)


    Might as well just make it ignore 70%...

    quote:

    specialty weapons (celtic weapons/azrael weapons), now give 1 counter to the specific mechanism (eg, Azrael Bane gives 1 critical counter, Celtic Cleaver gives 1 anti-block counter)


    Well since you seem to be try to rid all luck, how will Frost Destroyer/Frost Slayer/Delta Weps/Beast Rider/Frost Reaper/Delta Knight/Stun Guns/BioGear/Jack-O-Fire work?

    How does this work for NPCs? Admin 11 would be almost un-killable if not for those lucky blocks!



    Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 21:51:30)

    ScarletReaper,
    Hahah, I know the feeling. I got 1234speedy with only Mjolnir. I tried to many builds, and I screwed up. That was my first character, since EpicDuel was free to play in AE. And to think that I'd be an Alpha Tester if my Membership didn't expire a day before the Alpha test. :/



    ScarletReaper -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 21:53:34)

    Lol if you want to get a good laugh at mine, the name is RonStoppable



    Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 22:09:21)

    Frostbite:

    Frostbite counter: 2 charges, 4 turn warmup (1 more than ultimate skills), 6 turn cooldown (2X Frostbite's duration, which is 3 turns)

    Curse:

    Curse counter: 3 charges, 4 turn warmup, 6 turn cooldown

    Stun:

    Stun counter: 2 charges, 4 turn warmup, 5 turn cooldown, can only be used with Sidearm

    Thorn Assault:

    Thorn Assault counter: 4 charges, 4 turn warmup, 10 turn cooldown (2X auxiliary's cooldown)

    Jack-O-Fire:

    Jack-O-Fire counter: 4 charges, 4 turn warmup, 10 turn cooldown

    If we can, I would like to turn every instance of luck into a counter of some sort. 'v' Counters being an "auxiliary" form of weapon that we can add to our arsenals.

    quote:

    How does this work for NPCs? Admin 11 would be almost un-killable if not for those lucky blocks!


    If NPCs have been so overpowered that we had to rely on luck to defeat them, we would drop their Defense for example to cause the NPC to fight a fair battle for any person. 'v'



    ScarletReaper -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 22:15:36)

    admin11 is the only one I haven't beat. You would think a level 33 varium cyberhunter could beat him with a tank build right? Guess I need a decent partner too though.



    liy010 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 22:22:48)

    Question: Why Warm-Up? I mean, by 4 turns, most Mercs, BM and BH have already drained all of their Energy making Frostbite Useless
    Question: If say, I used a Frost Counter. Do I have to Strike to activate it or can I Static Charge?
    Question: According to your logic, All stuns always stun.
    quote:

    skills that stun (like Stun Grenade) are now guaranteed, however, their damage must be reduced, energy costs raised, and their cooldowns raised (reasonably)

    Here, you mentioned that the Energy and Damage would be increased/Decreased. With a Sidearm however, using a STR build it would do good Damage and stun. The stun guns are 5% so that's 1/6 of the chance of a Grenade. We can't have stun gun be a 100% stun...That's all I'm saying.
    Question: The things you mentioned could apply for Weapons but what about Armors? Do they also have to have Warm-up? I think it'll be ironic if they do.

    @Above: Heh, I beat him as a level 32 CH (Var Wrist Blades the rest Non-Var) with a level 34 (Full Var) TM as a partner :D



    rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 22:29:35)

    @ Scarlet.


    It is very hard to beat him with a tank build. For a Cyber, I find that high strength/high build with max SA works best with him. :) hope it helps.


    Ok...with the Delta Knight armor guys, I have it and...uh...has anyone else noticed how freaking AWESOME it is at tanking [;)]


    Just for you to know, having a high dex/decent tech build with this armor is DEADLY!


    30-36+1+5
    26-32+1+5(+8)

    think about that for a second...

    36-41 defense with the armor
    40-46 resistance with the armor

    nice...nice...nice....

    a bit OP, but...it is awesome as a couter for high strength builds :)



    frogbones -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 22:41:59)

    I like the idea of counters, but it seems rather complicated, Void. What about something like the idea below?

    quote:

    Instead of blocks and deflects being based on dex and tech, respectively, what if every player had, for example, 2 blocks and 2 deflects to use per battle. There would be a clickable button for each, and you'd use one on your attack turn. So first you'd click Strike, or use gun, or a skill, or whatever, and then you could select Block or Deflect if you wanted. (If you didn't want to use one, you wouldn't click anything.)

    After your turn, your opponent do the same thing. Now, if your opponent uses their gun and you used one of your Deflects, then bam! you deflect their attack. But if they use a skill or strike and you selected Deflect, then nothing would happen. Same thing goes for Blocks with regard to strikes.

    This way, players could anticipate an attack and act pre-emptively. I think it would introduce a whole new level of strategic gameplay that this game sorely needs.



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