RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/29/2012 23:21:33)

quote:

Question: Why Warm-Up? I mean, by 4 turns, most Mercs, BM and BH have already drained all of their Energy making Frostbite Useless Question: If say, I used a Frost Counter. Do I have to Strike to activate it or can I Static Charge? Question: According to your logic, All stuns always stun.

Here, you mentioned that the Energy and Damage would be increased/Decreased. With a Sidearm however, using a STR build it would do good Damage and stun. The stun guns are 5% so that's 1/6 of the chance of a Grenade. We can't have stun gun be a 100% stun...That's all I'm saying. Question: The things you mentioned could apply for Weapons but what about Armors? Do they also have to have Warm-up? I think it'll be ironic if they do.


I placed warmup on the equipment counters in haste because I saw that stun was included (can reduce a battle to 2 turns), and that unstoppable attacks (Jack-o-Fire for example, having increased damage). When I think about it, stun should the same cooldown, but I can lower it for Thorn Assault and Jack-o-Fire because techically all weapons would hit if counters were excluded. For Frostbite though? Hmmm, I would have reduced it's warmup, but imagine Frostbite on the first or second turn, Bounty Hunters, Mercenaries, and Blood Mages could possibly have their skill strategies ruined while the other 3 classes could restore that same energy back, so that would not be fair. For Frostbite it is going to to have to be a 4 turn warmup so that the 3 classes can perform their available skills up to an ultimate skill.

For the equipment counters, they will be able to be activated by any weapon. So you can activate Frostbite with a Strike or a shot.

Yes, all stuns always stun unless a stun/anti-stun counter is available via having a stun advantage. So any player with decent Support would not have much of a problem dealing with stunning. 'v'

Oh no, no, I plan to place greater limitations of the stun guns' ability to stun because their rate is so low. Warmups and cooldowns will be used accordingly to manage the effectiveness of a stun gun. Right now I have the stun guns be able to stun a maximum of 2 times every 5 turns approximately, ONLY by using the Sidearm (and that means the Sidearm cannot be in cooldown to use the stun gun stun. If you spot anything else about this specifically do tell me.

Counters for armours, like for weapons, would boost the player in a similar fashion. Think of a counter on an equipment like a potion in other games. Some NPCs sell basic potions while some sell mastered potions. Even though armours would not cause Curse or Frostbite upon being stricken, think of the power of the counter being proportional to how good the equipment is.

quote:

Personally, I have had enough of gambling my fate in EpicDuel. If I have a massive Support advantage then I should be the one who has control over the influence of Support. Vice-versa for enemies who have the same advantage over me.

I am suggesting that "luck" is no longer a gamble but instead something strategic in each and every one of our EpicDuel battles. How this would work is that we play using counters of stat-specific battle mechanics like blocking or going critical.

I will upload a poorly drawn diagram eventually to help express the idea.

For Support's case, first turn is a once per battle occurrence, so I recommend that whoever has the highest Support stat total should go first... guaranteed. Support also manifests critical hits and stun resistance, and these would occur more than once. So now I will introduce this idea of counters. Counters are the number of charges which an ability can be used for. If I have 5 critical hit charges, I can then choose to critical hit a maximum of 5 times. I would have calculated these counters by simply the number of stat points, but then there are no real benefits to using Focus... or having 2 equally Support savvy players critical hit 10 times under their control (easily exploitative). So, these "counters" would be calculated by the difference in stat points between opposing sides.

I was thinking of a progression like:

10+ Stat Difference: 1 Counter

20+ Stat Difference: 2 Counters

30+ Stat Difference: 3 Counters

40+... etc, etc

All the way up to 50+ difference in stats at a maximum of 5 counters.

I was going to use disintegration/decay in the progression, but that surely only benefits Focus in the end, right? So no favouritism.

The mechanics of counters run like this:

A player with 5 critical hit counters in a battle can use all 5 of his/her abilities to go critical within that battle. There are limitations however (like calculus), as to how quickly each counter can be executed. We do not want anyone spamming critical Robot Strike, critical Auxiliary, then a critical multi skill. What do you think this is, today's EpicDuel? Even Nightwraith's NPC is complaining about luck, what's going on there? So... we will use cooldowns! Hurray! Yes, cooldowns on counters for each event in which they are used. For example if I have 3 critical strike counters and use one for my Sidearm, I must wait approximately 5 turns before using another critical strike counter. I would consider having a 1 turn warmup for every counter ability as well. Who wants to have their first turn Bludgeon blocked, or be critical hit for half of their total health on the first turn without being able to prepare in advance? If we warmup for one counter like critical strike, we must warmup for all counters, it is only fair.

Further details of the mechanics:

Some flags were raised in my head when I though about duration. What if you have a block counter up but your opponent does not Strike you?! I would have the block counter remain in play for as long as the opponent does not Strike or use their Primary weapon, and then activate and exhaust the block counter when they do use their Primary. Counters can stack, so when a player uses a block counter when one block counter is already in play, the player is guarded by 2 block counters. Counters will not be visible to opponents, so anticipating and foiling one's use of counters would be intelligent, but very very aggravating for the player who was fooled. Counters do not effect "ultimate skills". With a brief explanation on my part, boosting the effectiveness of something "ultimate" would make it godly then, no? And godly skills would be game-breaking for PvP balance. That's right, you will have to live with ultimate skills not being affected by critical strikes, is that OK? I would somehow eventually include unstoppable attack skills to be vulnerable to this revised system of "luck". For example, Fireball or Plasma Bolt has great damage but cannot be blocked or deflected. Well, if it cannot be blocked or deflected, it should not be able to go critical! Fair enough? And about skills that already include critical chance and stun chance. The critical and stun chance are now guaranteed. I would simply reduce their damage (they even do well in today's standards, just look at Tactical Mercenary's past Strength builds that included Maul). Reduce the damage and guarantee the "luck".

I have forgotten some of my other topics...

But please, do comment, question, and feedback your thoughts to me! If anything is wrong, I want you to tell me (constructively as best as you can), and I will make amends!

Thanks for reading!


quote:

Personally, I have had enough of gambling my fate in EpicDuel. If I have a massive Support advantage then I should be the one who has control over the influence of Support. Vice-versa for enemies who have the same advantage over me.

I am suggesting that "luck" is no longer a gamble but instead something strategic in each and every one of our EpicDuel battles. How this would work is that we play using counters of stat-specific battle mechanics like blocking or going critical.

Update: I am 50% through finishing the picture diagrams.

For Support's case, first turn is a once per battle occurrence, so I recommend that whoever has the highest Support stat total should go first... guaranteed. Support also manifests critical hits and stun resistance, and these would occur more than once. So now I will introduce this idea of counters. Counters are the number of charges which an ability can be used for. If I have 5 critical hit charges, I can then choose to critical hit a maximum of 5 times. I would have calculated these counters by simply the number of stat points, but then there are no real benefits to using Focus... or having 2 equally Support savvy players critical hit 10 times under their control (easily exploitative). So, these "counters" would be calculated by the difference in stat points between opposing sides.

I was thinking of a progression like:

PROTOTYPE

10+ Stat Difference: 1 Counter

30+ Stat Difference: 2 Counters

50+ Stat Difference: 3 Counters [MAXIMUM]

OR

ADVANCED

10+ Stat Difference: 1 Counter

20+ Stat Difference: 2 Counters

30+ Stat Difference: 3 Counters

40+ Stat Difference: 4 Counters

50+ Stat Difference: 5 Counters [MAXIMUM]

The mechanics of counters run like this:

  • players initially receive all of their counters at the start of a battle

  • players may use as many of their counters in a battle that they have

  • using a counter does not take up a turn, and may only be used on the player's turn

  • stun resist counters have 1 turn cooldowns, deflect counters have 2 turn cooldowns, block counters have 3 turn cooldowns, and critical counters have 4 turn cooldowns

  • all counters have a 1 turn warmup

  • counters remain in play until they are used

  • counters can stack, 2 block counters at once means that the next 2 incoming Strikes will be blocked

  • counters are not visible in battle to other players

  • counters do not effect any skills

  • counters only affect weapons (Primary, Sidearm, Auxiliary, Robot)

  • skills that go critical (like Bunker Buster) are now guaranteed, however, their damage must be reduced, energy costs raised, and their cooldowns raised (reasonably)

  • skills that stun (like Stun Grenade) are now guaranteed, however, their damage must be reduced, energy costs raised, and their cooldowns raised (reasonably)

  • all skills cannot be blocked, deflected, or go critical

  • anticounters are temporary counters that initialize when a nerf (Smokescreen, Malfunction) or buff (Reflex Boost, Technician) skill is used. Anticounters only last for as long as the inflicting skill does

  • anticounters do not destroy normal counters

  • block anticounters, are created by Reflex Boost that creates 1 temporary block or Smokescreen that creates 1 temporary anti-block counter. Anti-block counters temporarily prevent the target from using 1 block counter until Smokescreen wears off or is used to negate 1 block counter. Reflex Boost gives 1 temporary block counter that is removed when Reflex Boost wears off or is used to block 1 Strike. If the target has 2 block counters stacked and 1 anti-block counter, 1 block counter will be negated (temporarily), and the other counter used to block a Strike. If an anticounter interacts with a block counter, the anticounters will disappear but normal counters will not (the anticounter overrides 1 counter)

  • deflect anticounters, are created by Technician that creates 1 temporary deflect or Malfunction that creates 1 temporary anti-deflect counter. Anti-deflect counters temporarily prevent the target from using 1 deflect counter until Malfunction wears off or is used to negate 1 delfect counter. Technician gives 1 temporary deflect counter that is removed when Technician wears off or is used to deflect 1 shot. If the target has 2 deflect counters stacked and 1 anti-deflect counter, 1 deflect counter will be negated (temporarily), and the other counter used to deflect a shot. If an anticounter interacts with a deflect counters, the anticounters will disappear but normal counters will not (the anticounter overrides 1 counter)

  • specialty weapons (celtic weapons/azrael weapons), now give 1 counter to the specific mechanism (eg, Azrael Bane gives 1 critical counter, Celtic Cleaver gives 1 anti-block counter)

  • for this to work in 2v2 and in Juggernaut, the highest stat of the players of 1 side are compared to the highest stat of the players of the other side (eg, Team1A has 40 Support, Team1B has 70 Support, Team2A has 60 Support, Team2B has 20 Support... Team1B's Support is compared to Team2A's Support, and Team1A's Support compared to Team2B's Support)

    But please, do comment, question, and feedback your thoughts to me! If anything is wrong, I would appreciate if you can inform me of any loopholes or missing information, and I will make amends!



    • frogbones -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 0:08:01)

    Bah. Take away emp from cyber hunters NOW. It's ridiculous how long the devs have let CHs get away with having the ED trifecta: an OP class, lemming builds, and all the arrogance to go along with it.

    And the kicker? Because CH is so easy to get a good win %, most CHs actually think they are good players!

    Pathetic!



    rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 1:31:22)

    Oh sigh sigh sigh. Frogbones, I believe before they would manipulate getting rid of EMP, all Cybers would want PA gone, as announced and retorted by so many of the cyber community.


    EMP should NOT be replaced. Reallocate it before getting rid of it! Move it into Tier 2 or Tier 3! EMP has the potential to be OP by players with no uniqueness!


    If they were to get rid of EMP, then I can surely guess that Tact Mercs would receive the same treatment on their Atom Smasher.


    And the trifecta on a Cyber?

    OP (NOT all Cyber's are OP. The only OP ones, IMO, are the strength Cybers with max PA and over 120 HP)
    Lemming Builds (I admit there is an issue in out class with Build Copying, once more thanks to PA)
    Arrogance (I am pretty sure every class is arrogant. Remember the Tact Merc scare? yeah...)


    And the win percentage. We do have high win percentages, but faced with other classes, we can almost never gain acknoledgement on the leader board.


    (I noticed you are using a Tact Merc, if I'm not mistaken. Well, Tact Mercs and Cybers are natural enemies cause we are the opposites of each other.)

    Any questions?

    And stop assuming all Cybers are the same!





    frogbones -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 1:39:59)

    Well, sir/ma'am, I've been playing this game a while now, and I can objectively say that most CHs I play have fallen victim to the belief that an OP class makes a good player.

    Of course, like with most things, there are exceptions to the rule. But a Cyber Hunter with a unique build and/or one who doesn't come off imperiously is hard to come by these days.

    Either way, a class should not have a way to both take away and gain energy. And if one does, all should.

    (Oh, and I linked my main. Jackson was more or less a test character.)



    rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 1:57:10)

    What would you consider a unique build then? One who doesn't use EMP heavily, or one that tries to balance out ALL skills? (ma'am btw)

    I see your point RESPECTIVELY but I also disagree with it HEAVILY lol



    Yes, Cybers ARE a class that can take away energy and gain it, but that is what the Nerf to SC was for. A decent Cyber Hunter (not extreme strength; more or less about 14-17 primary) is able to gain back 14 energy and then wait a 2 turns to refill this energy.
    The EMP system was designed so that the Cyber is able to be more like it's counterpart, the Bounty Hunter. So far, a few mistakes have been made.

    1: EMP as Tier 1 (simply MOVE this to Tier 2 and it will be solved)
    2: Implementing PA (seriously? Why must we have this?)
    3: Weak Plasma Grenade (this type of grenade is so weak, that only a few use it)
    4: Nerfing Static Charge (this was the only way for a non strength to excel: now, we must fight tooth and nail for energy)
    5: Only 1 passive (PA was a "way" for this to be solved. HOWEVER, it is EXTREMELY Overpowered for our class)
    6: Horrible skill tree (just, start over please!)
    7: Removing Technician (this skill was so good in making unique builds, and now that it is gone, a lot of us copy build.)


    My thoughts...[>:]


    @ below


    LOL Joe, you have my EXACT concerns! :D


    EDIT***

    The blue is Joes ideas



    Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 2:03:04)

    In response to Rayniedays:

    1) Emp as Tier 2. Thanks.
    2) Remove PA replace with Technician.
    3) Buff grenade PLEASE. Make it on-par with Overload. I don't see why not (and make Stun Grenade on par too).
    4) Either change static to make it an energy blood lust, or reduce cooldown by one and (maybe buff slightly), or buff majorly and keep 2 turn cooldown
    5) Passive is fixed if SC becomes passive. No other ideas. Replace Shadow Arts with Deadly Aim from Blood Mages please. Rework SA so that it also gives +chance to hit as well maybe?
    6) Skill tree bad is agreed. Swap Plasma Grenade and Venom Strike, buff Venom Strike, swap Defense Matrix with EMP.
    7) Give us back Technician for Plasma Armor. Please. NOW.



    Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 2:17:10)

    Over and over we have suggested PA takeaway, did the mods hear us will positive action? No.
    Frogbones i can guarantee that an OP class does not mean an OP player. Although many believe that is the case of OP classes, where one nerf is made, everyone changes to the next big class causing it to be nerfed.

    And when you say we are OP and not creative, guess what the answer is to that, PLASMA ARMOR, straight away when you class change to a CH, and you think, WOW so many skills to choose, well PA takes away a QUARTER of all that creativeness, also SC needs to be maxed out to just get 14EP, not even enough to heal.

    I do not know WHY mods do not change PA immediately, but i am sure they have reason, but we as players are the actual ones EXPERIENCING this, we know what it's like, and as much as we know about classes, we can't make enough potential to make a change.

    We have voices as a CH community, we have been heard, but not put into mind, sure PA is a great passive, but it limits the fact of Diversity and Uniqueness, these 2 words was what got me into ED 8months ago, and i hope it will still do the same.

    I do not blame Mods, or anyone in particular, i just want EVERYONE to take in consideration, what WE want, as players, we have a right as well as mods who have a right. We want PA taken away, we have reason, we have proof, what else have we missed?

    Joe, rayniedays, Void, etc, all CHs who agree on this, and many other voices to be heard, I PLEAD for PA to be taken away, and allow our voices to make a difference, if so many people claim CH as OP, well i want them to know we are trying to stop that, and many CHs believe this as the best way to Stop OPness and allow Creativeness to step in.

    I hope i have this time, after so many posts on this matter, MADE A DIFFERENCE. You do not need to give us a buff to our stun, or make a change to our SA or EMP, Just take away PA first, one step at a time to reach balance, whether it takes a long time or not, CH will come to balance, it just needs to be heard and put into action.

    Thank you if you have read all of this, means a lot.



    rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 2:28:34)

    Arevaro should be given a gold medal...



    GO AREVARO!

    [:)]



    Zeoth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 2:35:09)

    ^
    That aligns with everything I believe in. PA is the problem. In fact I've protested it from when it was first announced that they would implement it. We want PA gone but no they nerf SC. Ridiculous. I feel the balance team stubbornly cling to this quick fix passive armor. I miss all the diverse attempts at builds from before PA but no more. Creativity and diversity are 2 things that cannot exist within this class anymore.



    Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 5:16:59)

    quote:

    If they were to get rid of EMP, then I can surely guess that Tact Mercs would receive the same treatment on their Atom Smasher.


    Actualy no.
    BM= No Energy Steal/No Passive armor defences
    TLM= No Debuff
    CH= No EMP ( would be quite fair imo )

    Besides Atom smasher is nothing compared to EMP...



    Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 5:34:04)

    quote:

    Bah. Take away emp from cyber hunters NOW. It's ridiculous how long the devs have let CHs get away with having the ED trifecta: an OP class, lemming builds, and all the arrogance to go along with it.

    And the kicker? Because CH is so easy to get a good win %, most CHs actually think they are good players!

    Pathetic!


    It wasn't an OP class before Plasma Armor and was way more effective back then. Lemming builds? Say what now? Did you write that argument about Atom Smasher while Tactical Mercenaries abused Strenght like hell, as you did for Cyber Hunters right now?
    "Most CHs actually think they are good players!" - Boy, you're crazy.

    quote:

    1: EMP as Tier 1 (simply MOVE this to Tier 2 and it will be solved)
    2: Implementing PA (seriously? Why must we have this?)
    3: Weak Plasma Grenade (this type of grenade is so weak, that only a few use it)
    4: Nerfing Static Charge (this was the only way for a non strength to excel: now, we must fight tooth and nail for energy)
    5: Only 1 passive (PA was a "way" for this to be solved. HOWEVER, it is EXTREMELY Overpowered for our class)
    6: Horrible skill tree (just, start over please!)
    7: Removing Technician (this skill was so good in making unique builds, and now that it is gone, a lot of us copy build.)


    1. I don't mind that.
    2. Agreed. Give me my Technician back!
    3. I only used it for Admin 11, was a good few stuns, otherwise the skill pretty much sucks.
    4. I'd like my Static Charge and Technician back, thank you!
    5. Like I said many times before, lose the Plasma Armor and go on with our lives.
    6. Nah, its awesome.
    7. Same as a few answers up.

    quote:

    Besides Atom smasher is nothing compared to EMP...


    You crazy boy, Tactical Mercenaries can easily take more then 25 Energy with Atom Smasher on level 1, I can take 34 Energy on level 6 EMP Grenade.



    rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 5:36:34)

    quote:

    Actualy no.
    BM= No Energy Steal/No Passive armor defences
    TLM= No Debuff
    CH= No EMP ( would be quite fair imo )

    Besides Atom smasher is nothing compared to EMP...



    A high strength build with level 3 Atom Smasher is nothing there?

    No. Getting rid of EMP would be the highest amount of unfairness ever done to the Cyber Hunter class. I can barely handle them nerfing an original skill for the horrible PA, but actually getting rid of a skill that keeps the Cyber Hunter community alive? What?


    And here is where I troll...

    Has anyone noticed the people who WANT emp away? Are they actually Cyber Hunters themselves? What builds are they. I GUARANTEE that they all are high strength or kighly skill dependant builds. \

    As andy123 said, EMP isn't fair. Well, what other choice do we have?! We only have a few offensive skills, namely cheapshot, massacre, plasma grenade and multi shot. HOWEVER, we need a TON of stats to use them right?


    For cheapshot, we need high strength to due a lot of damage, high strength comes with low dex which means blocked cheapshot.

    For massacre, we need high strength. Once more, for a decent massacre, it will cost in the 39+ range to do over 20 damage, and since having a ton of strength is bad for our class, then...thats out.

    Plasma Grenade: Out! It requires technology, which Cybers don't need because of PA now (grrr).

    Multi Shot: Requires a TON of dex to do decent damage (mine does 62 at level 5). BUT this shortens rage, it allows a LOT of crits, and it allocates other stats to be misused.


    Give us ONE reason why we wouldn't emp? I don't know any. If I see a bloodmage with maxed fireball coming...I'mma EMP him. Same with poison tact merc....same with Bunker Buster merc....same with Technology Crazed tech mage. If we had unblockable moves like THEIRS that gave decent percentages, well then maybe we wouldn't use EMP so much. And if everyone got off their High Horse and tried to build unique builds instead of Constantly Copying the Supposed "OP" build, then maybe we wouldn't have to constanly EMP you!



    Now, this topic is OVER! Once and for all, EMP will get replaced as soon as the other skills that everyone has that Cybers don't get replaced.

    We have NO unblockable super moves like Tech Mage, Blood Mage, Mercenary. We can't do super poisons like Tact Merc. We can't even gain health back like every other class can.

    (tech mage super charge, merc and tact merc surgical strike, bounty blood lust, blood mage blood lust and super charge)

    We have only ONE way to stop those builds now since we are stuck with PA. It is NOT our fault that the builds you made to kill other classes cannot kill us that easily.


    Thanks and have a wonderful day.



    Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 5:55:07)

    Topic isn't over.
    Only BH and BM can regain healt. TMs can loop but so can you with Plasma.
    Atom can miss and requires high Str, EMP is opposite.
    Drinde suggested Plasma Cannon in place of EMP, unblockable attack. Win win.
    Multi doesn't need high Dex but goes with Plasma. I have Lvl 28 CH with 22 Def (dunno how much Dex exactly) and I can loop and block a lot with SA.

    Besides Atom is TIER 4, all the way at the bottom so should be more powerful than mere TIER 2 EMP. -.-



    Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 5:59:52)

    Everything that Raynie said is valid for every good Cyber Hunter. And then they tell us that we aren't good players.
    Good job, bro!

    EMP Grenade is the only way that we, the good players, can stop the builds he wrote. What else can we do? Nothing.



    Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 6:09:35)

    If the topic isn't over, we will make it over.

    PA with SC with Plasma cannon, any ideas on having a good build there WITHOUT allocating about 3/4 of the ENTIRE SKILL points into there? And concerning lower lvls, they will find it XTREMELY difficult to make good/easy/creative builds, WHEN there are about 3 skills that needs Maxed out for PERFECTION. As i have repeated in my above step, i will not stop trying to fix CH until PA is TAKEN.

    We are actual CHs here, i would acknowledge ANYONE who has been a CH for at least 2 months, and know our trouble. Builds are HARD TO MAKE, especially trying to tone down OPness due to PA, and no, 'try not using PA' is not an answer, NO CLASS needs a DEAD skill.

    Over and over again we are trying to make a difference, is it that hard, name ONE reason why PA shouldn't be taken away and stop our OPness, as some claims, well we aren't OP without PA, logic there if you can see it.

    If BM has HP steal
    TLM can loop/tank
    Then why can't CH LOSE PA SO we won't tank and we have FULL % EP regain, see the balance there, if mods wants each class to be unique, then So Be IT i say.

    I think many CHs who do not hind behind EMP and PA would agree to this INSTANTLY.

    And yes i know we wanted a passive, but we didn't mean this passive in particular did we? Make Static a passive, or revamp SA into a reliable passive, mods said that new skill was last option, so now i put forth that PA wasn't the 'in fact' last option possible, Whos' WITH ME?

    @rayniedays56

    Thank you for your support [:)]

    @Wootz

    I am totally with you there about CHs not being OP before PA :D And btw, raynidays56 is not 'he', it's 'she' xD



    rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 6:11:04)

    @ Trans...yes...please I beg...topic...over....


    They can ALL regain health, Trans, except CH. Why? The super moves...they all add health to the attacker. NO CH's want Plasma Cannon because it would not allow EMP, which Cybers NEED.


    Multi DOES need high dex. Having over 100 dex will hurt a lot more than 60 dex.

    EMP is meant to be an advantage to the other classes. WHy? Once again...I retort...we have no unblockable MOVES.



    Luna_moonraider -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 6:43:20)

    @ trans

    quote:

    Besides Atom is TIER 4, all the way at the bottom so should be more powerful than mere TIER 2 EMP. -.-


    emp is not tier 2 for ch it is tier 1.srry cant help it XD. as for the pm u send me i will reply in-due time.


    @every1 who says emp on ch is harmless

    emp helps with the looping since the devs do not want to remove plasma armor for some reason. emp has to go/ be moved to tier 2 or 4(tier 4 but y asim ad atom are tier 4 skills). emp is UNBLOCKABLE. yes atom with high str can do more energy minus but it is blockable and if i m not wrong sa(shadow arts) increase block rate so if u max sa or at least have sa u can counter atom and asim.



    drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 6:54:38)

    Oh man, it shot to page 24. I've got a lot of reading to do...

    @Arcanis

    Please, there are helpful people here. Especially me. :P



    Arcanis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 7:17:09)

    Summary for drinde: Person A: Everyone is OP but my class
    Person B: You just sux at making builds.
    Person C: I have super build for class dkfksd but I'm niot sharing cause everyone will copy it.
    Person D: You are all noobs.

    Repeat from person A to D,just use another letters.

    Edit: No offense meant drinde, i know some people here really meant good and want whats best for game.
    Its just the fact that after being with this game for over 2.5 years there IS a balance thread in this volume is quite amusing,as it is one of the basis of any PvP game that
    has to have priority over anything else,as it is base of any good gameplay, and should have been surpassed ages ago.

    I honestly admire people that have such vivid imagination to offer so many solutions for current situation,and i apologize if any of them find my post offensive.
    Its whole purpose was humorous,just do remember that where's smoke,there's fire too. [8D]



    Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 11:37:56)

    Guys, seriously get a grip here! What if old CH skill tree will never be back? Don't you think about that for one? Instead of trying to remove the skill, there are ways to make CHs creative even with the Plasma! That's why I still retain my CH w/o PA suggestion and new one with it!
    What you're fighting for might never come back, so simply wasting time. Devs get our views on classes from here, Berzerker -> Bludgeon was mentioned here first I believe and it was a wise solution for now it seems. Don't you get it? If we constantly argue, we will not get what we want. How about coming to a mutual agreement instead? This would save us all time arguing and we could suggest both verions; w/ PA and w/o PA just in case it stays or leaves.. We're supposed to discuss here on equal level, arguing is really not needed.. :/

    Drinde suggested in place of EMP, Plasma Cannon which gives you guys an unblockable attack at cost of no EMP. I suggested slight shifting in CH skill tree to this: 
    Heal   - Cheap  - Matrix
Plasma - Condu  - PCannon
Multi  - Static - Stun
Venom  - Mass   - SA


    Fixed tiering to reflect the one of BHs with Stun and Venom. Matrix swapped with EMP currently allows Plasma Cannon to be included in Tier 2 and Stun should be easier to get seeing how its power is low, too low to be Tier 4 skill.
    Static Charge slightly improved (max. 35%) due to EMP being gone and being Tier 3 skill instead.
    Conduction using Tier 2 version which is weaker for obvious reasons and they already have Plasma Armor so it's good enough. Also weaker Conduction is to replace Malf which with Plasma Armor, gives you deadly Res and 25% deflection rate unless you have Assault Bot which isn't really fair to have it both. This applies to Tier 2 AND Tier 3 version.
    Plasma Cannon replaces EMP so prevent looping but also give them an unblockable attack apart from Multi and Mass which is an Ultimate. It fits the theme and gives them more variety if used properly.

    Sure it ain't perfect but we can give slight boost to SC as I said because EMP would be gone so that's always some more Energy. You still get a debuff, a bit weaker but also at cheaper EP cost so it can be useful, and Plasma Cannon ignores 20% of enemy's Resistance and has 25% chance to Crit! This can be used even as an unblockable attack (last resort) and might get you a win. With good build, you can use Tech CH with P Armor and good Dex which would average out with PA.
    I have another suggestion of new EMP, which would be blockable and much more balanced and creative - drain would scale by your Energy trained and enemy's Energy. So if you have low Energy and enemy has low Energy - you won't drain a lot, if you have low Energy and they have a lot of Energy - you will drain more than before, if you have high Energy and enemy has high Energy - you will drain much more than previous scenario. It's meant to be a strategical skill not abused, and fact it can be blocked could get a small boost to make it useful to drain at least 10 EP in "low Energy and enemy has low Energy" scenario because they won't need the Energy as much and you won't find it useful to drain as much as you would with higher Energy. <- I cannot give more details, it's Luna's suggestion at first and I suggested this concept of draining so all credits go to her because I just changed the idea, not came up with it.
    Simpler idea would be giving you guys CH version of Assimilate BUT changed - it doesn't give you Energy back so in return, it drains more Energy than Assimilate but not too much. If you so want that EMP to stay there, either would have to work or you lose it simply. I find Luna's idea better because you should train Energy if SC keeps missing, so you can somehow make a high EP build to get good Drain Strike (Luna's skill), get higher Massacre or invest in Venom to crush through tanks, or maybe Venom + Stun combo if anyone ever tried it - relies on luck but Venom gives you damage over the time or some kind of Str-Tank build: with Lvl 8 PA (not maxed, it's just +2 Res difference), maxed Venom, low-mid Drain, mid-high SC and some Heal would be good to get through Tanks whilst dealing good damage. You must always remember that if DS misses, then you must have some counter strategy instead.

    Sorry for long post but we're still fighting for one thing, why fight between each other..



    rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 11:42:07)

    I don't consider it fighting :/ I consider it voicing our opinions... :)



    Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 11:49:17)

    Yes it is, we basically argue at each other's views as seen about EMP.. >_>

    quote:

    They can ALL regain health, Trans, except CH. Why? The super moves...they all add health to the attacker. NO CH's want Plasma Cannon because it would not allow EMP, which Cybers NEED.

    TMs have Assimilate which is Tier 4 so hard to get for some builds and drains 13 Energy at Lvl 10 + can miss. BMs have none; neither EP regen nor EP drain. You have Armor, debuff and EMP which is too much. TLMs have Armor, EP regain but no debuff. Atom is Tier 4 and can miss which justifies for its power, EMP is Tier 2 (or should be for CHs), stronger and unblockable - makes no sense whatsoever. And that HP which is added from special attacks - this does NOT justify you need EMP. It regens what, 10-15 HP at most for god knows how much damage + EP spent? You have Plasma Armor against TMs and (TL)Mercs so they will regain less HP, Massacre goes with BL for BHs so HP back but you cannot have it as CH because you must lose Malf and SC or Plasma and SC. But wait - TLMs have Frenzy which gives them same HP as Ultimate move does but for much cheaper cost - what's your point now? Every class needs Frenzy?

    TMs have lived long without Assimilate whilst Mercs and BHs had Atom and EMP but it wasn't a problem. Why should it be now? Are you just trying to defend your own class or are you looking how it harms others? Discussions aren't one sided, understand that thing.



    Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 11:52:45)

    Fellow Cyber Hunters.

    If you recall these 2 things from 6-9 months ago, Cyber Hunters lacked endurance WITH Technician. So staff chose: they lack endurance? Looks like they will need bonus protection, let's do this quick fix and do 2 things in 1: more protection and a reliable passive because they claim that Shadow Arts is not providing AND we have proof that Cyber Hunters are taking massive damage.

    In my own opinion, yes, Plasma Armour did equalize our defenses out, but there was outrage by a group of 5-10 Cyber Hunters including myself arguing that there would be creativity gained from this move in the future because Plasma Armour is in fact Mercenary oriented!

    I suggested Energy Shield time and time again to give Cyber Hunters that much needed Resistance, Technician costs way to many skill points for a decent boost and less Resistance! With Static Charge, energy is NEVER a problem.

    So I come back to you with one of my final pushes... please staff, do consider how protective Energy Shield would function on Cyber Hunters. It IS a BH skill, and we will be less like TacM!



    rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 11:58:51)

    What exactly are you talking about? I am justifying FIXING my class.

    Did I not state that EMP could be moved around? Did I not want PA gone? Think about this....No plasma armor on a Cyber Hunter, technician is back, EMP is allocated to Tier 2, SA is replaced with Deadly Aim and Deadly Aim on BM's replaced with SA.

    This will benefit BOTH classes. One, for the non strength BMs, they will be able to block more. And Cybers will be able to utilize a way to DO damage.

    quote:

    TLMs have Frenzy which gives them same HP as Ultimate move does but for much cheaper cost - what's your point now? Every class needs Frenzy?


    What...are...you...talking...about? You are making yourself sound like...I don't even know? It seems like you are trying to find faults with what I post...

    quote:

    TMs have lived long without Assimilate whilst Mercs and BHs had Atom and EMP but it wasn't a problem. Why should it be now? Are you just trying to defend your own class or are you looking how it harms others? Discussions aren't one sided, understand that thing.


    LOL you're the one saying EMP is a problem! xD


    quote:

    You have Armor
    we have it but don't want it.
    quote:


    re you just trying to defend your own class or are you looking how it harms others? Discussions aren't one sided, understand that thing.




    LOL what? I am trying to defend my class and trying to better it. And haven't I listened to EVERYONES views? LOL



    Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 12:18:14)

    My, my. And that's what I said in my first post above.. ;)
    quote:

    This would save us all time arguing and we could suggest both verions; w/ PA and w/o PA just in case it stays or leaves..

    Don't you get the point? If old CH is back, I don't care if EMP stays as it'll be fine but with Plasma, it ain't fine. Durrr.
    quote:

    Did I not state that EMP could be moved around? Did I not want PA gone? Think about this....No plasma armor on a Cyber Hunter, technician is back, EMP is allocated to Tier 2, SA is replaced with Deadly Aim and Deadly Aim on BM's replaced with SA.

    No SA to BMs. Don't even care as this skill will be useless to BMs. Khalidion suggested Aux version of DA for BMs which seems much better and lowers their damage anyway (Str + Gun + DA. Seen Support BM ever? No? Exactly. ;)
    quote:

    What...are...you...talking...about? You are making yourself sound like...I don't even know? It seems like you are trying to find faults with what I post...

    You compared on how every class has Ultimate moves that get you back some HP but CHs don't. I stated how TLMs have Frenzy on top of it but others don't.. That's my point here. It doesn't justify anything and nor do Ultimate moves.
    quote:

    LOL you're the one saying EMP is a problem! xD

    Read 2nd sentence in this post. It's a problem for CHs with PA, not with BHs or pre-PA CHs. And have you read my post with Luna's DS? You could give some feedback on it too as it's also your class and I'm suggesting something for it, so really, CHs are best people to get opinions out from. Win-Win!

    Well well.. We agreed on half of our views actually. I'm not going against you, it's just some points we all make and it turns into fighting with each other.. Why fight each other if we can get to some sort of agreement and perhaps suggest both versions of CH? With PA and without, so perhaps if we get confirmation that PA stays or not, we can suggest more and more. That's my whole point, understand it now?

    This has turned into arguing. And this post should also stop it, or last paragraph to be precise.



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