RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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ScarletReaper -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 16:41:12)

I love how people think constant nerfing and buffing will create balance. All that will happen is what has happened EVERY single time. Everyone will switch to the next OP class, people will complain, it will get nerfed....On to the next class.



frogbones -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 16:48:30)

I'm not saying they don't need a buff. I just don't want the devs to make the same mistake they did with CH and make it too good.

There are enough class hoppers as it is!



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 16:48:37)

http://i48.tinypic.com/20ky55c.jpg

Just a suggestion for the Cyber Hunter class.

Support is less of an ideal stat today because of the universal changes which are Field Medic and Deflections. Support is therefor less self-efficient because it houses but 1 weapon, Auxiliary, that can only be used every 4 turns while Primary and Sidearm weapons may be used every turn! This would surely put the 2 offensive stats at an offset, so I thought why not bring back Support? Especially after the Deflection change, Auxiliaries could not manage their own accuracy but the critical chance was and still is powerful indeed.

Take a look at those new skills on the skill tree. Can you guess what they are? Well, get excited because I am proposing to bring back Tactics that boosts Support and a new skill called Threaten that fells Support!

There are some changes that were NECESSARY before re-implementing skills like these, so please scan over the following status of the skills:

Tactics: Increases the Support of the selected target.

Energy Required:
Level 1: 16
Level 2: 17
Level 3: 18
Level 4: 19
Level 5: 20
Level 6: 21
Level 7: 22
Level 8: 23
Level 9: 24
Level 10: 25
Weapon Required: None
Stat: None
Level Required: 5
Improves With: Strength (+1 Support at 20 Strength; +1 Support per 4 Support after)
Warm Up: 0
Cool Down: 2

Threaten: Decreases the Support of the selected target.

Energy Required:
Level 1: 10
Level 2: 11
Level 3: 12
Level 4: 13
Level 5: 14
Level 6: 15
Level 7: 16
Level 8: 17
Level 9: 18
Level 10: 19
Weapon Required: None
Stat: None
Level Required: 1
Improves With: Strength (+1 Support at 20 Strength; +1 Support per 4 Support after)
Warm Up: 0
Cool Down: 4
Use: Does NOT use Strike

Edited out image tags as per rules. ~TG



khalidon5000 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 16:57:36)

I like the increase support, but I dislike the decrease support as it's a weak enough skill as it is.
Lots of nerfs to it and this would be another one if it were implemented.



skeletondude -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 17:00:36)

depressed void: Cyber hunters are known for their malf removing it would totally disrupt the class



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 17:02:38)

I'd love to see a skill that buffs your Support! :D But I don't think Support debuff would be useful because it doesn't affect many things but luck-based things + Aux. I'd leave that to curse but Support buffer would definitely be interesting, with Plasma or without it.

Question time: Support buffer, E Shield and Matrix both improve with Support - what's your opinion on this? If you change either to Tech or Dex, you're changing it for TMs or BHs so that's the problem which lead me to simply propose Technican instead of E Shield, was good so no harm there.
Although no EMP with old skill tree? Sure you'd always get Energy back with your suggestion of SC but EMP would be nice to have, in place of Support debuffer I'd say.

Btw, Sidearms have cooldown as well.



ansh0 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 17:03:51)

Support Hunters anyone?



steven11113 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 17:10:27)

I suggest a buff to mercency by giving them HP back when they do rage



Rayman -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 17:19:13)

^
no and i suggest an ability for them to get Energy when they get hit by rage only.



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 17:26:39)

Depressed,
The Support buff would be a nice touch. It'd be nice for a Cyber Hunter Supporter to rise.
Still, either EMP Grenade or Malfunion instead of the debuffer.
Personally, I'd like the EMP Grenade.

@Rayman and Steven,
I'm more for Health regen. The class is unique in no regains. Maybe we should leave it that way and add something else?
Frogbones and I talked earlier today,
and we agreed to make Atom Smasher unblockable as it would be of great benefit to class.

Heres an example,
we did a battle. He has 96 Dexterity, I have 136 and a level 3 Shadow Arts. I have blocked him 9 times in that match. And I've easily beaten him with more then half of my Health left. Of those 9 blocks, four were by Atom Smasher and if those Atom Smasher went through it would be of great difference. I would not be able to heal nor build up my Energy for an Massacre or an EMP Grenade as he could easily throw down my Energy to 0, again.
So, that is why we are suggesting that.
It would mean a lot in a battle. And we're sure that it would be a nice little tweak to the Mercenaries.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 17:44:00)

quote:

I like the increase support, but I dislike the decrease support as it's a weak enough skill as it is.
Lots of nerfs to it and this would be another one if it were implemented.


Would you recommend that I drop it's cooldown, or that it improves at a faster rate? I do not recommend having it Strike at the same because it improves by Strength and Strike is universal for everyone, not just Strength users.

HOWEVER, I am inclined to have the duration of Threaten last 4 turns, which means that it lasts as long as a buffing skill like Reflex Boost or Field Commander.

quote:

depressed void: Cyber hunters are known for their malf removing it would totally disrupt the class


I know, but I do not support the synergy of Static Charge and Malfunction either. That is OP. If you made me choose between saving the life of SC or Malf, I would choose Static Charge all the way. Static Charge is OUR skill, Malfunction is someone's else. What if Cyber Hunter ends up taking the blame for having Malfunction nerfed? Imagine all of the angry Tech Mages. [8|]

quote:

I'd love to see a skill that buffs your Support! :D But I don't think Support debuff would be useful because it doesn't affect many things but luck-based things + Aux. I'd leave that to curse but Support buffer would definitely be interesting, with Plasma or without it.


I figured since Cyber Hunter has no Support skills aside from Defense Matrix and Malfunction, and since these 2 skills can only be either overpowered (synergy with Auxiliary and self efficient) or not at all (Static Charge factors in Strength), why not break that window and open a new one? By cutting away Malfunction there is no Support synergy left, so I can add a different form of Support. My options were offensive Support skills that do not exist ([:-]), or revisiting trashed ideas (Tactics) and broadening EpicDuel's outlook for skills and skill trees once again. Tactics can improve Defense Matrix and Energy Shield, but Cyber Hunter now has no offensive Support skills, = no true or overpowered synergy. Threaten can be looked at as a powerful skill indeed, by lowering the critical hit chance of an enemy, the player raises their own towards that target.

quote:

Question time: Support buffer, E Shield and Matrix both improve with Support - what's your opinion on this?


Auxiliary has a slow damage output, Energy Shield and Defense Matrix can be expensive. Imagine a Cyber Hunter chose to use ES and DM whenever possible, 10 energy every 4 turns for just 1 skill, Static Charge for a Support player would likely restore 5-10 energy every 3 turns. It would not last. So we have balance!

quote:

If you change either to Tech or Dex, you're changing it for TMs or BHs so that's the problem which lead me to simply propose Technican instead of E Shield, was good so no harm there.


As mentioned above, the potential for the skills is quite low. [:D]

HOWEVER! Tactics + Strength + Static Charge + DM/ES! Therefor I must manage either the # of Support points, cooldown, energy cost, or duration. What would you recommend for this? The good news is that we have options. 'v'

quote:

Although no EMP with old skill tree? Sure you'd always get Energy back with your suggestion of SC but EMP would be nice to have, in place of Support debuffer I'd say.


Possibly Assimilation like you have suggested before in place of Threaten. That could be a potential buff to the class if this is underpowered.



rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 17:50:44)

Darn you Depressed! You are making me think about my first days as a Cyber :D


What was I? High support FTW! :) I could take away 50 technology, add 34 def pts at lvl 1, and hit with my aux at 28-35 damage! w00t! and then I realized how horrible support had become... LOL



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 17:58:05)

^

I am removing your Malfunction. >:D



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 18:02:23)

Ah that however blows my concern with Support + E Shield & Matrix away except for the combo you've mentioned. Tectics then could improve by another skill, let's give it Tech maybe? It's good enough as it doesn't boost many things in their skill tree (one you suggested) which blows away the combo already.
Can you confirm we go by your idea of SC? As having DA as only passive would be real pity but if SC would always get EP back then we can treat it as a passive equivalent to Reroute but deals damage and doesn't depend on your HP.



frogbones -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 18:07:35)

In case anyone misses Wootz's post about Mercs and Atom Smasher, here it is again:

Make Atom Smasher unblockable.

And I repeat: I have 96 dex and he had 136 dex. I got blocked 9 times in one battle. I know it's somewhat of an anomoly, but seriously? Nine times?!

Really?

(lol. good battles, Wootz. You da man!)



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 18:10:35)

quote:

Ah that however blows my concern with Support + E Shield & Matrix away except for the combo you've mentioned. Tectics then could improve by another skill, let's give it Tech maybe? It's good enough as it doesn't boost many things in their skill tree (one you suggested) which blows away the combo already.
Can you confirm we go by your idea of SC? As having DA as only passive would be real pity but if SC would always get EP back then we can treat it as a passive equivalent to Reroute but deals damage and doesn't depend on your HP.


Improve by Technology?! I actually agree, because in my haste I have filled the skill tree with skills that rely on Strength, my bad. [X(] Tactics and Plasma Grenade would have a nice synergy because the only way they can synergize is that Tactics will increase the player's stun resistance at the same time as decreasing (indirectly) the enemy's stun resistance. Therefor Tactics would directly improve Plasma Grenade's chance to stun, making it more popular (hopefully). I will most certainly include the universal Static Charge idea. I will upload a revised version of the Cyber Hunter layout, please give a maximum of 30 minutes, and I will finalize the sketch.



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 18:20:37)

Frogbones,

I'm the man, and I'm the man and everybody knows that I'm man 'cause I'm the baddes of them all and you're just mad. 'Cause I'm the man! ;) Rough lyrics off Hollywood Undead - Dove and Grenade.

Nah, you're better, mate! Another battle/chat?

Void, I think that if both of your skills would be implented it would ruin the class. No offense though. It would be too Support oriented and probably only abused by tankers.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 18:28:59)

But suggestion is still a suggestion, am I right Wootz? Maybe someday, they'll let us make custom classes which would be of course balanced so you couldn't mix'n'match best skills so new ideas could always be used. Or perhaps alternative to current base classes that would be available at registering for free, unlike Evolved ones?

Atom should be unblockable or make EMP blockable which would be really weird as we can see that Grenade hits but doesn't do anything. So go with unblockable. xD



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 18:33:40)

How about having the EMP Grenade a chance to miss? That would probably kill me, though.

New classes to chose at the start. HELLZ YEAH!



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 18:35:27)

I'd rather have unblockable Atom instead with a bit less power it has now (simply rebalanced along with EMP). :P It'd be fair and both would have about same power, it's especially more fair for original Mercs if frog's example has also happened.. That's a bit of an overkill too.. o.o



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 18:44:25)

Yeah, exactly what we were thinking.
Yeah, thats a total overkill.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 19:02:15)

╫╬╩╥CYBER HUNTER╥╩╬╫

quote:

Threaten: Decreases the Support of the selected target.

Energy Required:
Level 1: 10
Level 2: 12
Level 3: 14
Level 4: 16
Level 5: 18
Level 6: 20
Level 7: 22
Level 8: 24
Level 9: 26
Level 10: 28
Weapon Required: None
Stat: None
Level Required: 1
Improves With: Technology (+1 Support at 20 Technology; +1 Support per 4 Technology after)
Warm Up: 0
Cool Down: 4 Turns
Duration: 4 Turns
Usage: Does not apply to Strike

Static Charge: Static Charge currently improves Primary weapon damage + Strength damage. This current model can only be fully utilized by Strength users and not from other types and sorts of users of the Cyber Hunter class, and that is not something of equal opportunity, especially when we love Static Charge so much, it is a core skill of our skill tree.

It has become a high priority to me now to suggest an edit to Static Charge to restore the class to a previously simpler, more hardy class. Here it is:

Static Charge: A percentage of your Primary weapon's damage is added to your energy bank in a Strike. Energy restoration is unblockable, however damage is blockable. Cool-down has increased.

Energy Required: 0 (No Cost)

Conversion:
Level 1: 33% of the Primary Weapon's Damage to Energy
Level 2: 36% of the Primary Weapon's Damage to Energy
Level 3: 39% of the Primary Weapon's Damage to Energy
Level 4: 42% of the Primary Weapon's Damage to Energy
Level 5: 45% of the Primary Weapon's Damage to Energy
Level 6: 48% of the Primary Weapon's Damage to Energy
Level 7: 51% of the Primary Weapon's Damage to Energy
Level 8: 54% of the Primary Weapon's Damage to Energy
Level 9: 57% of the Primary Weapon's Damage to Energy
Level 10: 60% of the Primary Weapon's Damage to Energy

Weapon Required: None
Stat Required: None
Level Required: 2
Improves With: None
Warm Up: 0
Cool Down: 4

Tactics: Increases the Support of the selected target.

Energy Required:
Level 1: 16
Level 2: 17
Level 3: 18
Level 4: 19
Level 5: 20
Level 6: 21
Level 7: 22
Level 8: 23
Level 9: 24
Level 10: 25
Weapon Required: None
Stat: None
Level Required: 5
Improves With: Strength (+1 Support at 20 Strength; +1 Support per 4 Strength after)
Warm Up: 0
Cool Down: 2


@Wootz,

quote:

Void, I think that if both of your skills would be implented it would ruin the class. No offense though. It would be too Support oriented and probably only abused by tankers.


Wootz, normally I am fine with people who are skeptical because they can provide great advice when needed. However, without providing any detail at all at the same time you negatively criticize an idea without much insight into the topic as you have honestly admitted I do appreciate that, I would find it quite pushy.



Zeoth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 19:13:14)

Well void your 2 new skills are replacing Emp and Malf correct? If so I can understand where Wootz is coming from. Your attempting to take away malf, this skill helps us flow from one move to another. So basically your taking awy our offense orientied skill. And Emp, this skill allows us to keep from getting out damaged or from taking damage from a multi/fireball/bunker etc.



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 19:22:18)

Yeah. Exactly the reason I meant to write, sorry I've forgot to put it. Watching something on the TV.
Your skill would only let us control Support in a minor bit, and along Dexterity, that is the only build that could work then. If EMP Grenades goes away, we have no way to keep the opponents skill usage as minimum as possible. Without Malfuncion we can't have much offense, but I can live without the skill. I never use it, so its fine.
So, what I'd suggest to you is:
Remove the skill that debuffs the Support in order to have EMP Grenade as its far too valuable.
Replace Malfuncion with the skill that buffs Support or replace some other skill with it. Maybe even Plasma Grenade, I've never found a good use for it.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/30/2012 19:26:16)

Do you guys find Cheap Shot weak as well as I do? I plan on replacing it with a better attack skill, such as Bludgeon or Double Strike. OR Blue Ruin.



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