RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (Full Version)

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laguna blade -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/18/2012 2:26:44)

I only agree with nerfing azrael borg. I think this game become less fun and need balance a lot of times after enchance is introduced because of the stat abusement. And only player that pay alot can do that including me. I hope there is no enchacement if can go back to past and stop lvl cap at lvl 35 plzzzz.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/18/2012 7:30:00)

Nerf Assimilate? Really? Swap it for EMP? Really? Both are bad ideas, EMP being worse unless you love Tech abuse and even more OP Casters.



rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/18/2012 7:31:51)

Nerf Assimilate????!!!!


NUUUU!!!!


My strength TM relies on that :O



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/18/2012 7:54:21)

Point is, it's much weaker than other EP drainers TM has none like EMP or Atom since they don't improve, you must train them. TLMs have Atom but Assimilate is also block able. It's one of weakest EP drainers and let it be as it is. No needs or buffs are needed to it



Sh4d0wMast3r -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/18/2012 8:17:50)

Seriously most of these caster TM's aren't that much of a problem, problem are those that know what they are doing. I'm talking about those that have Crystal Staff/Death Flame Staff, Dark Varium Blaster, Lagomorph Laser and P Tesla armor at their disposal. If you didn't already imagine how would a caster build look with those let me tell you. 140 hp, 110 energy, 20-24 +9 def and resistance is 35-42 if I remember correctly. I don't know if any of you ever encountered a caster with that gear but I have and belive me it's pretty much unstoppable. And let's not forget about a lv3 DM and a level 4-5 heal aswell. Even giving Plasma Bolt a 33 energy requirement wouldn't help. Giving it an stat requirement like STR would just kill caster TM's completely. So the only thing that I think would help is to make it progress a little slower.



laguna blade -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/18/2012 10:00:28)

Actually I beat that caster mage lots of time with ch,tlm and bm but it takes 5 round to 15!



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/18/2012 11:15:29)

CH can tank against Casters, TLMs are tank class already and BM can outdamage and heal them but how about other classes or other builds?

@Sh4d0wMast3r
Hence why I suggested many times to increase cost to 33 EP again and make Tech/4 for progression like Fireball was done. 4 more EP and ~8 damage less can make difference because you'll have to deal more damage on them in order to allow them to get to 33 EP as opposed to 29 (4 EP from Reroute is minimum of about 12 damage more taken) and they will still deal less damage than they can now.
You know what would kill Str BMs? Support requirement. But why isn't it done? Lower levels perhaps? Caster TM exists at lower level as well and making them get to 42 Str would be a pain to get a decent build thus higher EP cost and slower progression is really best thing to deal with Casters for good.



Sh4d0wMast3r -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/18/2012 11:45:27)

@Trans

You said it all. I totaly agree with you. I don't get how someone can't agree with this.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/18/2012 11:46:32)

@ exploding penguin

Well the azreal borg is attacking the opposite with the debuffing ability while the assault bot removes a debuff from yourself so it wouldn't make sense to have the bot attack yourself would it. Also there are 6 buffs in the game and only 2 of them are purely defensive which is energy shield and defense matrix. Do you know how many times as I stated before that there are stat abusers who only buff this stat even more? I am talking about those mercs who come at you with (using this as en example) 50 str plus 35 from weapons, then buff themselves even move with a level 1-10 field/blood commander giving them27-45+ strength sometimes even more depending on support. that right there would add up to 130 strength at the 45 and 102 at the 27. Then there are those dex and tech build that do the same thing so while it is good for tearing down shields it is also good for making OP attacks (from stat spammers who use use buffs to power up OP attacks even more) that are supercharged from these attacks hurt less if you don't have access to an energy draining move, your energy draining move won't be enough to stop it, or you can't put up shields to weaken the damage.

Also on the point of you saying only 5% of people use this bot besides strength build then I guess I am speaking for that 5% then since as I said I use this bot and I am a level 5 focus build with as I stated before only 68 str. I have seen other builds besides the str build use this bot and in fact I rarely see people use this bot since most non variums (which make up a lot of the community) use either the Assault bot (if they won the arcade before it was removed) rusted assault bot, and infernal android, and most variums as you say use the those bots or the gamma bot. I rarely see people use the other azreal borg and the other bots, but like you said before you don't agree with me on the use of this bot, I don't agree that this bot should be nerfed again because one type of build is abusing it. It would be like removing deadly aim from a blood mage and giving them adrenaline because str BM are abusing it but not the rest of the class and as I stated before even with nerfing this bot (which I am totally against) how would this stop the str BH who you are claiming are abusing the build? It may slow them down, but it still doesn't stop the strength abuse and even with a 10% or 5% nerf in effect these people who have theirs nerfed if they don't play right will still feel the effect of str charged massacre and all the other str charged melee moves and it hurts those even more who aren't abusing the ability like this.

Also as I stated before while this nerf may help those who make shields for defense protect themselves, it will also help as I stated before the stat abuses who spam stats meaning dex BM/BH's Caster TM who we know are OP and the str merc's and tech merc in one vs one, as well as there partners in two vs two. Remember the azreal borg doesn't just break shields it also can also weaken offensive attacks (since Blood commander, field commander since these two are pure offensice, reflex boost, and technician can be use for offensive as well as defense which as I stated in the example above.




laguna blade -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/18/2012 11:57:39)

I totally disagree with nerfing caster tech mage because they only use skills to kill thats why they are called caster. Every class can beat them. Bh 5 focus high tech so high emp. But that build need good wep n armour. CH use emp too n must high hp. Bm 5 focus. Tactical 5 focus. Finally merc use str high hp build. Merc easily hit them coz they only have high tech not dex.

Thats not all tm got good wep n armor to become best csster.

I think azrael borg no need nerf after what he said. This game is balance right now. It is all about you need right wep n armor with good build and strategy if u want win.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/18/2012 12:07:06)

@Sh4d0wMast3r
Heh, no problem. :P I already know Caster's power myself since I was one for month or two and it's devastating. It's hard to lose really unless you can keep looping EMP which shouldn't be the only strategy. Each class should at least stand a chance or your build must have a flaw. If it doesn't then there's an issue.

quote:

I totally disagree with nerfing caster tech mage because they use skills to kill thats why they are called caster. Every class can beat them. Bh 5 focus high tech so high emp. But that build need good wep n armour. CH use emp too n must high hp. Bm 5 focus. Tactical 5 focus. Finally merc use str high hp build. Merc easily hit them coz they only have high tech not dex.

Thats not all tm got good wep n armour to become best csster.

1. They use skills. Right. Your point? Every class uses them.. They use them too much or rather it creates OP combo that is hard to defeat unless you outdamage them first or EMP loop. Now outdamaging is hard and EMP is exclusive to 2 classes. Atom works but you need Strength whilst you need Tech for EMP which will also block off some damage from TM.
2. Every class? Why Focus 5 BH with high Tech and high EMP? Why high EMP and HP for CH? Why Focus 5 BM? Why Focus 5 TLM? Why high HP Merc? You mention one build and still false. Focus 5 for F2P is very hard and you're giving ONE build. If only ONE build can beat them - and not always, using my own experience here and Caster > F5 if you know how to use it "wisely" - then there's an issue. Build may be weak against something but if only ONE build from each class can beat them then there's an issue. Merc because they have high Tech? Sure. Every class can have high Tech for purpose of EMP yet they still lose..
3. Good weapon and Armor? Eh, not really. I managed to work out good Caster with 110 HP and 62 EP who relies on one cast of PB (2 if I don't have to Heal or get EMP'd/Atom'd) and has good weapon damage on top of it. You know what? I have a bit above 100 Tech with equipment on my charpage which gives me about +20 Strength as it is. Good equipment? Not really. F2P yes but that good equipment can be gotten cheaply in form of Caden's Staff for example. Armor? Any P Armor can do, Tesla, Harbringer or even Bunny. Tried 'em all and worked the same really.

If you're TM, laguna, perhaps look at how other players feel not just how it'll affect you. You aren't whole ED community and balance isn't based on one person so look at the bigger picture. I may be TM but there's no reason to be biased when Caster is an issue. Yet I'm Caster myself but I worked my way round it and even if Bolt is nerfed, I don't rely on it as much hence why I have decent weapon damage. (I have the build saved so if people wanna see it then I'm free to give it to them via PM)



laguna blade -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/18/2012 12:23:56)

Sry trans coz I mention only 1 build coz I just used it and able to beat that caster tm. And I dont have good wep and armor to become caster mage. And that ch actually not high emp just lvl 3 and that time I use tank massacre build with high win rate about 92 but I not massacre to that caster. I asked to the casters and they said their main weakness is tact 5 focus with loop heal n loop atom smash.

Finaly their are no perfect build. Evry build has wekness. I always change class about every week and no perfect build.



ScarletReaper -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/18/2012 12:57:49)

Nerfing caster mages is definetly needed, however, I am just worried if you lower the progression on it that it will mess with the f2p characters a lot worse than the variums. f2p characters can't get their tech nearly as high as varium users can, or at least not without sacrificing health and energy. I worry because my level 29 ftp alt techmage has trouble enough as it is dealing with the high level players. And no I don't use a caster build on it. I have max plasmabolt, but I have kind of a support/tech build going on.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/18/2012 13:14:46)

quote:

Finaly their are no perfect build. Evry build has wekness. I always change class about every week and no perfect build.

Then why are you against nerfing Casters? They are too strong, face it. Their weakness is.. nothing. Spam Physical attacks but it'll do nothing since they can heal up with SC and then Rage PB again in your face. I tried Caster for a long time, even before switch of SC and Multi and it's still as deadly. I can stand against them but beating is difficult unless you outdamage them with Caster TM (in my case).

quote:

their main weakness is tact 5 focus with loop heal n loop atom smash.

Funny. So as TM, I shouldn't even beat them. I don't have Focus 5 build, I don't have Atom and I cannot tank as well to heal-loop. Thanks, that's totally fair. Seems like every class is weakness to Casters but not ONE TLM build. Balance for you. <_< >_>

Scarlet, I also have max PB but I don't rely on it. My focus is somewhat spread between Str, Dex and Support for moderate damage and good defences without having to rely on 1 skill to win.



laguna blade -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/18/2012 13:24:42)

Im not tlm anymore. Ok maybe i need accept tm need nerf but I hope not too much although Im not caster tm coz maybe it will be underpowered. I just hate when there is class underpwered honestly but not hate nerfing.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/18/2012 13:27:59)

PB costed 33 EP before, it was reduced earlier this year and it wasn't an issue with 33 EP cost. And it'd be same nerf as Fireball has, from Str/3 to Str/4 but in this case, it'd be Tech/4 as opposed to Tech/3 we have now. 2 skills would be equal and balance Caster at lower level as well. TM is balanced class already, just Caster causes issues.



ScarletReaper -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/18/2012 15:59:32)

@trans, I don't Rely on it, but It's kinda my last resort rage attack on high level characters. I mostly use my aux and my sidearm for damage untill then.



Rayman -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/18/2012 16:16:48)

quote:

Seriously most of these caster TM's aren't that much of a problem, problem are those that know what they are doing. I'm talking about those that have Crystal Staff/Death Flame Staff, Dark Varium Blaster, Lagomorph Laser and P Tesla armor at their disposal. If you didn't already imagine how would a caster build look with those let me tell you. 140 hp, 110 energy, 20-24 +9 def and resistance is 35-42 if I remember correctly. I don't know if any of you ever encountered a caster with that gear but I have and belive me it's pretty much unstoppable. And let's not forget about a lv3 DM and a level 4-5 heal aswell. Even giving Plasma Bolt a 33 energy requirement wouldn't help. Giving it an stat requirement like STR would just kill caster TM's completely. So the only thing that I think would help is to make it progress a little slower.

It's Not Unstoppable, I win them all the time but the thing is that I need boost to get the win vs thouse, I need a booster or 2 to get the win, that mean's that they need a Nef.



ScarletReaper -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/18/2012 16:27:35)

^Then I guess tanks need a nerf too cause I have to boost to win against them. That means, ch, tlm, and merc all need a nerf. See how ridiculous that sounds?



rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/18/2012 16:30:12)

Caster TM's may seem unstoppable, but really, they are eh. I use a strength Mercenary atm, so I have 20-24+35 damage output with a tanky appeal (26-32+5-1+6 defense and 23-28+5-1+5 resistance)


How do I win?


LOOP Atom Smasher :) They usually have very low dexterity, so with MINE, I just loop it every 2 turns.


I use a MAX Atom with level 5 BC. Level 5 BC give me 38 str, making my damage become 26-32+35.


That is 61-67 damage.

78% (max Atom Smasher) of that is 48-53 EP drainage.


Looping this every 2 turns (about 3 times a battle) can drain EP 120-150


That's a little help for anyone struggling with Caster's. :)




*ALSO*

Hybrid Armor: Buff


A simple buff/nerf this is:



Levels: 1-9

5 Defense and 5 Resistance MAX


Levels: 10-19

6 Defense and 5 Resistance MAX


Levels: 20-29

6 Defense and 6 Resistance MAX


Levels: 30-39


7 Defense and 6 Resistance MAX


Levels: 40-49

7 Defense and 7 Resistance




Rayman -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/18/2012 16:32:20)

Scarlet:
No, They Doesn't Need a nerf (TLM,CH,MERC,BH) because with these classes is easy to win the caster's TMs cuz the high energy draining, But with Focus TM VS Caster tm is a whole different Thing.
:3



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/18/2012 16:34:48)

@ Scarlet

Caster TM have an OP plasma bolt, and the ones who have high health and energy use this to make up for their lack of defenses. Also unlike most tank classes The caster TM's moves aren't blockable or and most aren't deflectable. (aka Plasma bolt supercharge aux and gun) Plus with high health, energy, and reroute all together they can heal themselves from the damage you deal them while using supercharge as a second healing source and then after that finish you with a rage Plamsa bolt if they have the energy.

But at the same time I can see what you are talking about with the booster comment.

@ Raynie

What about for non caster TM? they don't a strong energy draining move like the hunters and merc classes, plus TM energy draining move works with Reroute which means unless it is high leveled and does low damage the caster gains more energy then you take away. Plus if you can tech to the point where it is doing high damage to someone with 36-42 or higher resist (Which some say is tanky) then you know the move is OP.

However the buff to hybrid armor would be nice since I did see the 7 defense 6 resist with the merc class when I reached level 35 during the infernal before the staff decided to fix a bug that OP move which in turn nerfed not only this armor but other moves some of which received a buff because of the new level.



rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/18/2012 16:55:10)

@ mother1


I was just showing people that it is easy for mercs.

Mostly, non caster TM's would have a major issue with this build. However, try a nice support TM that can minus 40-50 technology. With your Azrael Borg, you can stop the Buff they give to Technician.

Yes, they need a nerf. How many TM's do you see in level 15-25 that AREN'T a Caster build? Exactly.


For the non var TM class, I feel that they have it the worst against a varium caster TM. Huge damage with low cost=overpowered.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/18/2012 17:05:37)

So Malf it is and it's owned by 2 classes, that still leaves a lot to wish for and it's still one build. Bot is also exclusive which means it shouldn't be accounted at all (it's rare).

Also HA already scales with Level, it should go up by +1 very soon (between L36-38) and it's the same with PA and MA. Hence why DA having +11 damage with +36 weapon isn't bad because passive Armors scale with it and same with other skills (say Reroute/BL, you can get even higher HP for better MP regen or higher damage for HP regen). I wanted to post earlier but I had an error but Mother1 said what I've said in the edit.

@Scarlet
I didn't say you rely on it, just as an overall statement. I sacrificed Energy for better weapon damage and it works out well since I can use Bolt up to 2 times if I don't get my EP drained or Heal and when I don't have EP, I can rely on my weapons just fine. It's like weaker but better Caster (EMP loopers can't do anything to it).



Exploding Penguin -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/18/2012 18:43:45)

Caster's aren't really too overpowered, although they are slightly right now, it's not as hard as you think to beat them in a 1v1. Using my old caster weapon set (Frost destroyer, dark varium blaster, tesla P, e eggzooka, all on max tech enhance), I was able to dominate with equal records to those on the 1v1 leaderboard at a good rate, but my support build with TM was far more effective as it won much faster, and gave out about the same win rate. The main point I'm making is, TM overall is just an overpowered class and certain skills need to be nerfed (those who complained about me suggesting nerfing assim, hopefully you read the later post I made because I stated that it was a mistake. Also don't forget that assim can actually return energy back to the user while dealing normal strike damage. At level 9+ assimilation, TMs can virtually recreate a move that's an almost exact copy of static charge, just that assimilation removes energy, but has a longer cooldown, and gives a slightly smaller amount of energy back. Therefore, I'd say assim is currently pretty balanced as of now). Mainly plasma bolt, which needs to be redone on scaling (I think the way it used to be scaled would be better, where it's +1 damage per additional 4 tech rather than 3, but it levels at a rate of +3 instead of +2 per level.), and also bludgeon, because it has a 10-10 damage-energy ratio at level 1 on higher level primaries, whereas skills like double strike may have lower cooldown, but cost 5 more energy and deal 5% less damage.



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