RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (Full Version)

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ScarletReaper -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/3/2012 14:37:15)

^I most definetly agree. We need to make credit enhancements affordable enough that by level 31 or so you should be able to have fully enhanced gear without varium. This would make battles more fun for all. Free players would actually stand a chance, and varium users would actually get a bit more of a challenge which I think would be good. I have 2 variums and 1 free character, and I think it would be fun if I got more of a challenge with my varium ones, and was able to give the variums a run for their money on my f2p character.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/3/2012 16:56:25)

@ Scarletreaper this is true. This would be a great first step to balancing the classes. Not being able to afford enhancements because of the sky high credit prices is one of the main reasons non variums are the punching bags for variums. First make the enhancement affordable so the gap isn't so bad, then fix the moves that are OP. Because a lot of the moves may seem op but this is because of enhancements points being pushed into certain stats to power them op.

By removing enhancements altogether you are working with the stats the weapons have, in most cases if not all this would weaken if not destroy certain builds.

Here is a topic I made about the subject of reducing credit prices to help with balance



The Astral Fury -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/3/2012 18:11:45)

So if we nerf caster TM will we finailly have a little bit of balance?



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/3/2012 18:28:21)

And Str progression. That'd deal with players abusing Strength and Casters only need one change which is Plasma Bolt. After that, we can look at buffs such as for the Mercenaries and other classes if needed so.



ScarletReaper -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/3/2012 21:24:04)

Yes, just please don't nerf plasma bolt to high heaven. A little dab will do ya. lol Adding back the strength requirement and increasing max energy cost to 33 I think would be just right. And yes, definetly fix strength progression. Been more than long enough we've been talking about these things, time for some action here. Also still waiting for that support buff. [;)]



Rayman -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/3/2012 21:28:48)

Looks Like This Week we aren't getting balance Update .-.







Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/3/2012 21:36:22)

Bursters and Drivers (skill spam and Strength spam) are flooding PVP leaving profanity and 18+ rated comments everywhere they go.

A fellow opponent TacM using Strength told me to settle down on the Support usage. The hypocrisy!



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/3/2012 21:46:07)

Scarletreaper when the plasma bolt was balanced Rabble decided to buff TM remember? The lower level mages were getting owned so they removed the requirement and lowered the energy cost. However by doing so he overpowered it for higher levels. By doing all this while it would be nice I doubt it will happen since it will put lower level mages back at square one even though they can combo malf and technician together.



rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/4/2012 3:01:24)

So...I noticed that the two classes that everyone is using now are the only two classes that have bloodlust.

And the most rampant builds?

5 focus Infernal Android build. Cause they gain HP back from EVERY hit they do AND gain an insane amount from the Android.





EDIT:

I just realized the issue of STRENGTH I made with a reformed BL.


Maybe not allow HP back on Massacre and, BUT buffing BL to 27%?


And for BM's, I say get rid of BL and replace with something I suggested a WHILE ago. A combination of Static Charge and Frenzy. Maybe where they gain EP and HP back when they use it?


Like this...

Blood Thirst
10%3%
12%5%
14%7%
16%9%
18%10%
20%11%
22%12%
23%13%
24%14%
25%15%


I feel that this would GREATLY reduce the amount of abuse with BM's and allow them to gain a small bit of EP back, with the focus being on HP and a bit of EP as a bonus :3


EXAMPLE:

5 focus BM with 16-20 damage


They attack with Blood Thirst and do 37 damage.

25% and 15% of 37 go to HP and EP in this order.

10HP and 6EP is gained.

The move is on a 2 turn cooldown, 0 turn warmup and costs 0 EP.

Requirements: 23 support step 2 (41 MAX)



ngshuyi94 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/4/2012 3:06:52)

^ So u want those classes to only work with strength builds? No thanks, if there ever is a nerf i'd rather nerf the %, more effective that way anyway.



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/4/2012 3:10:47)

@rayniedays

BH's main strength build largely only requires the use of their primary weapon. Your suggestion would prompt a sharp decrease in BH build variety. Furthermore both of BH's passives, Bloodlust and Shadow Arts, would become situational, somewhat unreliable passives.



rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/4/2012 3:24:43)

Fixed, look up :3



RageSoul -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/4/2012 7:31:28)

Caster TM > STR BH / BM but
< Focus TLM , BH , CH and EP Drains , however
< or > STR BH / BM

Just varies on the stuff and / or build format + strategy + luck . However , i don't see any serious problem with Caster TM though , just the gear they're using and of course , Enhancements . I have , like , at least 4 Enhancement Points on my TM alt just to get enough Health that results to 90 Agility , plus enough EP to cast SC and PB , but , as what i have stated above , an EP Drain skills that burns 30+ and above can really screw that build . Besides , if that build can beat an "seemingly OPed" build yet easily beatable with a non-OPed build , i don't see what's wrong with it . And , oh , if you guys are gonna say "Ha , you only tried OPed builds , well guess what? I have used different builds before ( during my low-level beginnings) since Gamma , and yes that includes Mass BH , but it was actually self-discovery , never a copy-attempt .


Now about that "STR Build Dilemma" ... that can be solved is just combining the old STR -skill system with the current one we have ( similar to the one i made previously , but i was in a hurry so i wasn't able to fix the calculations , and systems , so i might make better formulas) .

Moving on ....

Responses to some posts ...

quote:

However by doing so he overpowered it for higher levels.

Isn't that the stage where everything "seems" OPed?

quote:

So if we nerf caster TM will we finailly have a little bit of balance?

Nope , just a lack of variety and balance , because we'll be forced back to Focus and SUPP again .



ScarletReaper -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/4/2012 8:23:54)

^Thank you. I think it's funny how now everyone seems to think caster tm is more of a problem than strength bm and bh. Caster tm has been around since beta, but now it's a problem? I know it's a strong build, but how else are we supposed to counter those strength abusers? And nerfing caster builds to the point of uselessness would be a bad idea. Small change is okay, but please don't ruin the build completely.



rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/4/2012 8:30:44)

@Scarlet Reaper


I agree!

I have a chance to take down a full caster build by just Atom Smashing them. I can take away 40 EP per atom, so 3 of these can take out a caster :3


HOWEVER, how would one do this when a strength BM/BH can just rage their gun and get 10-12 HP back? Even with high defenses, a strength BH can smoke, which allows them to hit more accurately, which means regained HP, which means OUR hits do much less...


I have seen a BM/BH do this is battle...

125+HP
80+ EP

Strike: Heal 6-8
Strike: heal 6-8
Gun: (if BH 6-8)(if BM 8-11)
(if BH massacre)15-18HP (if BM bludgeon)12 HP
Strike: Heal 5-8
RAGE GUN: If BH 10-14 HP, If BM 14-18 HP


Tell me if I am correct?



RageSoul -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/4/2012 8:37:06)

@Raynie
Yep , and the most common are actually the Varium ones , but the non-Vars , however, are actually slightly weaker .



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/4/2012 9:18:34)

Raynie even if you can do that with a strong energy draining move not everyone can do that. Besides when someone with a tech abusing build can get a 74 with a plasma bolt without criting you on rage on a person with 36-42 resist you know it is OP. As for your energy drain sorry but I could do that since my energy draining skill work with reroute unlike the rest so even if I did use the move I would be restoring his energy.



ScarletReaper -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/4/2012 9:26:16)

so mother1 are you honestly saying caster techmage is more overpowered than strength bm and bh? I have no problem with slight nerf to caster build, but I'm just saying, do it AFTER you fix strength builds because caster build is our only defense against those builds. Especially for a f2p character.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/4/2012 9:51:25)

Not true. I use my build against those two all the times and while I don't always come out on top (which is fair since if I didn't or did it would be unbalanced) I can beat these build with a non caster TM. But with casters it is a nightmare unless I manage to crit with the right move.

Besides with all my battles I have been in I have never taken a hit that strong with full resistance on me before with the exception of when the infernal android was extremely overpowered. I had 62 health in that fight against that caster mage and to get hit with a rage attack that can do 74 to you due to tech abuse and not having a requirement (Plus this wasn't even a crit and they didn't use the war weapon or it would have been worse) I would call much greater then str BM and str BH since I have never seen one do that much damage with their rage even with str abuse. The closet I have seen was with massacre but that can't be raged and it is an ultimate move.

As for str BM closet I have seen would be with a rage deadly aim with the war weapon criting you but still nothing as vastly OP as that plasma bolt I was hit with.



ScarletReaper -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/4/2012 9:55:13)

I know with a varium character you can beat em without a caster build. My main is level 34 varium techmage that I use 5 focus build on, and I stomp all over strength users. I'm mainly refering to free players. Free players almost have no choice but to use caster build against them. If enhancements were cheaper this would change, but as it is, that's the way it is.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/4/2012 10:29:16)

^ Which is why the staff needs to make enhancements more affordable for non varium players instead of leaving them sky high. It is because of this fact alone that many of the builds that didn't need nerfs get them while some OP builds that needs a nerf if slight stay OP.




Rayman -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/4/2012 10:29:23)

Mother:
quote:

It is extremely hard for a non caster TM to take on a caster. Unlike the other classes TM's energy drain works with reroute. While EMP and Atom Smasher can take away energy with the threat of them getting it back Assimilation unless it is at a really high level and does very little damage will only give casters back energy. In other words they gain more energy then you take away. Plus even with boosters after I am hit with supercharge most of my bar or half of my bar is gone anyways and at this time they already have a rage plasma bolt waiting for me which is already OP as it is since it doesn't have a stat requirement (meaning anyone could spam tech into it and overpower it) How is putting a stat requirement (which is the way it originally was until rabble remove it) going to hurt it? If anything this stat requirement will help limit the amount of tech you can use to power it up.


It's Indeed Hard And They Waste My Boosters all the time but 98% of the time I win them and No I don't use assimilation because I dont even use staff, if I had $ I would use it but I don't.
And Adding Req to PLasma bolt will kill or might Kill the Caster TM, It Can Probably Make them OP, Who Know's? Anyway Ill Test that with someone today at night, Cuz I just equipped my staff and is just lvl 33 and gives alot of supp, the lowest supp I can get is 67 Lol And It's Like a Pail Caster. So later Ill test it. The TM Build with 40+str,



ScarletReaper -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/4/2012 10:38:32)

Yeah, definetly need cheaper enhancements. 50k credits to enhance my gun, 50k for my aux, 30k for my armor, and 110k for my staff on my f2p character, so 240k credits for full enhancements. Kinda rediculous huh? lol



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/4/2012 10:50:20)

^ That is the problem I am seeing know. Most of these nerfs that are happening are coming because they aren't on an equal playing field or a close to equal playing field. While some I can say are justified (Like the fireball nerf to BM) others are made because one group of people are having problems with them while another group isn't and when this nerf happening it affects everyone not just that one group.

With cheaper enhancements for all you would be able to see what is truly OP and what is just hurting a certain group.

As you said it before for a varium TM they compete with Str BM and Str BH while a non varium needs an OP build just to stand a chance against one of these players where as both Varium and non Varium players TM that aren't caster are the punching bags for these OP casters and the only reason some are staying leave the caster build alone is because it is the only way f2p can compete since they can't afford enhancements which we all know isn't fair not only to those who can't afford them, but to those who can as well that aren't using this build.

So before you even nerf strength or the caster build get rid of the enhancement gap for non variums so they can compete better so the staff can get more accurate data. It only makes sense to do this before for start nerfing builds because one group is vastly overpowered due to enhancements. as well as leaving another build OP so those who aren't can compete.



zion -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/4/2012 11:03:17)

@Mother1 Like I said in some other threads, if you are f2p: it is better to pay 50K for a class change (to the current OP) and buy a new primary than to spend on enhancements - ridiculous : either lower enhancements or give bigger rewards (scale to level).
--Noiz



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