RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Variation -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (8/21/2014 9:19:46)

@Mother1: kittycat is correct. The life steal is equivalent to 60% of the strength gained from the skill. Here is a direct quote of the skill description.
quote:

Increase Strength, granting lifesteal equal to 60% of Strength gain for 4 turns.



suboto -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (8/21/2014 23:46:10)

Bunker needs a dmg progression nerf it should not be able to even reach 700 as someone used a 735dmg one on me and got 1070dmg on me in 2 bunkers in 1match
I had 420defense also so it was basicly nothing it felt like they hit super close to 100%



kittycat -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (8/22/2014 4:08:23)

Bunker does need a nerf since Blood commander pays for their life steal capabilities as well as a generous boost in Strength. However, as level 40s come in defenses with 400+, this skill is essential in order to bring them down. So, if that move is equal to Plasma cannon, it is okay.



The berserker killer -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (8/25/2014 11:43:46)

Give Merc firescythe? Lets not as long as they get 40% HP Regain.

Im not suggesting a nerf for classes, all im saying is that Field Commander and BC should be switched between these classes.

First let me point out the real source of the problem: You gave Mercenaries the ability to get 40%+ HP Regain along with a 55+ Str Buff and a 1 turn Warm-UP skill that (when the strength is added in) rivals that of a Max Massacre and a Mana regen skill that improves with strength....

I'm not saying this class should be nerfed because I am the sort of player that loves the story behind the class and the first word that comes up in the merc description is
quote:

Strong
.

What I am saying is that this skill is a great skill! Please, do not nerf it! Instead just monitor it's overall effect by giving this skill to tlms and giving mercs Field Commander.

Lets be honest, what are you gonna complain about if tlms get this skill? They can spam double strike? Sure, 1 turn cool down so it only makes sense to spam it but we know it won't work since every merc has tried that already. Spam poison? You can only regain HP off of the initial shock of poison. Spam Strike? Everyones doing it already. Spam artillery strike? Supports a useless stat at the moment. People only use it to go first in matches or to get 5 focus/meet some requirements. Spam Stun Grenade? Valid point but this skill increases with DEX, not STR.

Now the positives is that it will actually boost atom smasher, give Frenzy the boost that it has needed for a long time and with battery back up having a 4/5 turn cooldown then this skill will actually be balanced with this class.

Please think about. This will be a huge step forward in balancing the classes



kaierti -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (8/25/2014 11:54:35)

quote:



Increase Strength, granting lifesteal equal to 60% of Strength gain for 4 turns.


In my opinion good will be delete this liefesteal. but it is at least. Str mercenaries again will be strong 1 vs 1 class. choose something about strength or destroy lifesteal. please. 1 vs 1 is killed by them. i can play all classes all builds: str cyber hunters, tank tech mages, bounty hunters and etc. but main is Rank. Rank 4 player cant win Rank 15+ players and some people are Rank 40+ so there are many unfair battles 1 vs 1. need work on this. difference need only maximum 8-9 lvl. no matter play Rank 1 vs Rank 20 and etc



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (8/25/2014 12:01:10)

@ KAierti

As for the rank problem thank the low player base for that. It is so small that you will continue to fight the same players constantly. until they find a way to fix the low player base problem you can expect this.

Also Mercenary's are not unbeatable. They can be beaten as many people here have done so. It just so happens that strength Merc is your bane right now and every class and build is suppose to have one. Suggesting things to nerf your bane doesn't help balance but makes it worse due to it doing nothing but shuffling the flavor builds instead of fixing the problem.



kaierti -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (8/25/2014 12:15:46)

Mother1
I think problem is not in Merces. problem is in Ranks. almost all merces are 20+ Rank maybe 30 or 40 and when u are low rank player u cant defeat them !!!! 100%. it is not rightly game. when u are Rank 1 u must play maximu 8-9 Rank player. and problems will be solved. i am saying only 1 vs 1. because it is not problem in 2 vs 2 high Rank players. but for me and for low Rank players dont have wish to play 1 vs 1 anymore because u know u are loser when battling Rank 20+ players. I am Rank 4 and i can beat Rank 10 player but not Rank 20. this is a big problem. its good that u growing experiences but there is unfair battles. thats why i dont playing 1 vs 1. but i have more wins that 2 vs 2. im winning 1 vs 1 2-3 battles of 10 because of high Rank players



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (8/25/2014 12:31:47)

With the player population this low? Higher ranked players would barely get any fights due to the lack of them. There isn't a decent enough player base to do such a change because said change.

Level 40's already took a massive cut to their player range right after these ranks came into play which is why level 38's -40's are fighting each other more in 1 vs 1. Also while I agree that these ranks are making the game unbalanced due to the fact that they give power, remove them would defeat the purpose they were made for.

Changing them so they don't give power in battle would be a much better solution

This way the ranks will still reward players for their hard work, but at the same time won't be a must have in battle or be at a disadvantage against other ranked players.

Not to mention by doing this there will be no need to cut the ranges even more making higher ranked players have longer wait times or not getting fights at all due to said change. This is what happened the first time they cut the player range for level 40's soon after the ranks came into play.



Variation -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (8/25/2014 12:36:02)

kaierti1: So if the problem isn't Mercenaries why suggest a nerf to them? Blood Commander is completely fine and can be made next to garbage with Azrael's Torment/Heart Attack. Also keep in mind that the health gain was added for a reason, removing it would be taking a step backwards (Field Commander). Even if you don't have those cores you can still beat them by utilizing defensive buffs. I'm literally 100% against BC Mercenaries, they can't even come close to killing me even if they start first. I can guess from reading the forums that many players just don't invest time into decent counters. Like I've said even defensive buffs(which all classes have) can be used as a pretty good counter to Blood Commander.

Also if you feel the problem is that you're a low rank why not NPC until you're rank 30+? You can hit rank 60 in less than a year with NPCs alone (during PH that is). This is a problem you have to address yourself. The game gives you all of the tools you need to be a successful player, you just have to be willing to take advantage of them.



kaierti -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (8/25/2014 12:50:27)

man mods will not destroy this ranks soon and need nerf merces. i dont want delete skill "blood commande". i wanna delete lifesteal 60% <<< this. need destroy this lifesteal. dont need merces. and i dont play against npc-s because u guaranteed 100% win chance against npcs and such game is not interesting. plus 12 experince is not many. i play 2 vs 2 for 24 exp

my wish is that delete this Ranks and 10x Enhancements. but noone wanna listen me



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (8/25/2014 12:55:51)

@ Kaierti

you said it yourself that merc's weren't the issues but ranks. So while I dislike the rank system myself I actually have to agree with him on one thing. If the problem is ranks why should merc's themselves get an unfair nerf?

He is also right about heart attack and Azreal's torment seeing as both of these as well as shields can counter the life gain given by this still. Also it isn't the mods who can make changes but the staff of rabble and Titan.

Changing a skill that isn't unbalanced and can be countered because some people don't want to invest in counters is why the game is the way it is now. We have had far too many unjustifiable nerfs to many builds because players don't want to find counters and just want to steal roll every build that comes their way without problem. Irony of this is that if this happened then said build they are using would be overpowered.

Every build must have a weakness which was said by the staff. We can't just destroy weaknesses just because players who don't want to find ways to counter this build refuse to do so.

Edit

the X 10 thing was actually needed for a long time. With this those who were trolled when they system due to the decimals being used are no longer trolled by this. You can not only see every points affect when investing in said stat but it also actually has an effect with skills unlike before which is much better than it used to be.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (8/25/2014 12:58:25)

60% lifesteal depends on your +Strength, which is why Azrael's Torment works pretty well - because the HP return also gets smaller. I did a test, so you can see how it works in reality. 0.6 * 26 Str = 15.6% HP returned from each attack -- that's from L1 Blood Commander with +26 Str boost.

It is NOT 60% damage dealt returned as HP. Also, changes based around "I cannot beat this, pls nerf" will not be made, because each build has a weakness. If it doesn't, then there's a balance concern. Variation clearly shows you the working counters, and they don't necessarily require you to have Rank 10, or 30, or even 60. Also, x10 is NOT getting removed. Rounding works as it should now, instead of always rounding up causing inconsistencies with balance. It had VERY LITTLE impact on overall imbalance.



Justingbieberfangirl -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (8/25/2014 15:30:17)

@trans
quote:

Variation clearly shows you the working counters, and they don't necessarily require you to have Rank 10, or 30, or even 60


I disagree.
The counters Variation mentions are
1.) 2 seasonal rare expensive items (which a lot of people dont have including me).
2.) Unless you are a bh/ch then buffing yourself at the current state of ed isnt efficient. (And I realize that both classes have very difficult time of gaining energy)

Why?
Because it gives RAGE & most players that use BC + Str build have a different gun damage type from their primary and they often have a core on their primary changing their damage type.

E.g. A person with physical primary & energy gun and with the energy meteor skill core.(None of which are rare) Not to mention that they can drain your energy with static smash.
And EVEN IF you buff yourself... You loose a turn and give them unreal amount of rage AND give them hp.

AND 3.) There is nothing to prevent the player abusing str from using azreals aux skillcore on (destroying your shield).

So over all there are no viable counters apart from 2 seasonal rare items which are currently NOT IN GAME

Or maybe all this is because I am a low rank (4) and i dont think that you should be doing 100 npcs every day to have a decent chance of winning.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (8/25/2014 16:05:13)

@ Justingbieberfangirl

Even with all those none of these are a problem with the merc skill tree but other factors in the game. So if the problem is rage (which favors strength builds more than others) Why should we nerf merc's because of it?

Does it solve the original problem? No it doesn't it only hurts the class while the real problem/Problems stay in the game. How about we attack the real problems that are causing issues and not do something that would hurt a class that doesn't need a nerf?



Justingbieberfangirl -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (8/25/2014 17:44:38)

@Mother 1
Well I was just saying what Trans statement was incorrect as there are no counters to str. (Including BC)
And in all honesty i feel like talking about balance is pointless as they are just going to implement the long term solution (the balance tool)


@off topic
The real problem is that there arent enough in game not rare counters/aka cores.

E.g. If skillcores such as azreals will (tactical) and azreals aux (also tactical) would become a permanent addition to the game and could be purchased
from the vend bot but maybe a little bit weaker as frost shards are compared to frost bite.

I know what you are thinking... well it is a promo and it should keep it's identity/not be a ripoff.
But there are only so few cores IN GAME (not rare but permanent) and as developers have stated
that making copies of cores would be easier now just having different animations/costs
would be a lot easier and would take a lot less time to implement.


Whilst at the beginning this suggestion/solution may not seem great and it isnt but seeing their current rate of making non-rare cores
it is the only solution i see for now.

Also have you noticed how many weapons they have made lately? They are all exactly the same apart from their cores and we only have like 20 non rare cores.

And a quick question... When was the last time they introduced a non-rare core?



kosmo -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (8/25/2014 18:20:08)

playng whit stat boost isnt a counter, and doesnt even make u win ,when u do 10 battles a day and u win 10 , ur prooving nothing.

i hear peaple talk alot, but barely see them in game, and i still hear things like "merc and bm are balanced", tht s what a common class jumper would say, who doesn t rlly care about making other classes viable and just wants the maximum advange.

the fact ranks are already braking balance doesn t mean tht nothing must to be done to put skills on pair.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (8/25/2014 18:36:16)

Kosmo

Not seeing said person =/= said person doesn't play.

As you pointed out thanks to the broken ranks giving more power to another group of players many players are now desperately NPC grinding just to get said ranks to catch up in power. By doing this those same players are not within the battle modes so if you are playing the battle modes while someone is NPC grinding you will never see them unless you are batting in the same area as that NPC.

Also balance changes are meant to help those who can't win due to bad balance and cannot find counters. Not those who outright refuse to find counters and are basically saying "I can't win against this build and I refuse to find counters. So please nerf said build so I can beat them." Which is what has been happening here even before I came to the game.

No build is unbeatable in game. This has been proven by players who not only beat these builds but offer counters to beat said builds.



Satafou -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (8/25/2014 18:41:35)

There's many counters to bc lol. Azreal aux, abyss weps, intimate and shielding. 4 counters I've thought of within mere seconds. Also build can be considered a counter, for example dex tm counters every str build, in fact it cripples mercs. High dex in general counters str. There is also cores to counter str, i.e 4% increase block rate. Also the reason bc cant be switched with field commander is because tlm's have frenzy bc and frenzy in the same skill tree would just make frenzy pointless.



kosmo -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (8/25/2014 18:59:47)

dont take words out of my mouth, i didn t suggest a nerf, im a rank 37 merc lol , im just bored of winning in this way, and i want both ranks overnerfed and balance between classes.

quote:

Not seeing said person =/= said person doesn't play.


im directly refering my self to 1 player who doesnt play because he cant afford stat boost all day(the only way he can win), but still talks alot whit absolutly no evidence.

azrael gear and hibrid armor are the only 2 decent counters to bc, i think the reason why this is stupid is evident.




The berserker killer -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (8/25/2014 19:31:01)

Oh wonderful, a counter that's only effective by the majority of the ED population for one season/a couple months. Niceeee



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (8/25/2014 19:45:19)

@ the berserker killer

There is also hatching rush which is available all year around which was mentioned earlier in the thread.



kosmo -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (8/25/2014 19:54:35)

heatcling rush:
already tried, its not even near to the effect of azraels, this core effects only the total hp gain by 40% for 3 turns while the azrael aux and expecially the borg affect the strebght buff by 65% and the total hp gain by 65%.

whatever it can still be considered a decent counter if used after intimidate/shield



The berserker killer -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (8/25/2014 20:57:59)

The 60% HP Regain applies to all attacks btw Trans, not just str/primary attacks which just makes it even worse. F5 mercs with 45 supp, maybe even 70 supp with infernal and max BC....



Variation -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (8/25/2014 21:09:10)

@kosmo: Where did anyone say that you need "stat boost" cores to beat BC Mercenaries? Please don't hijack the thread with childish accusations. Also I've killed you in-game twice (100%) and you were a BC Mercenary both times. This goes to show they aren't unbeatable because I kill them every single time. Can players try to say it's because of stat boosting cores? They can, and I laugh. It's because of defensive buffs, Azrael's Torment/Heart Attack, and Intimidate. Those three strategies will always defeat a BC Mercenary, if played right. The matches I have against BC Mercenaries make me laugh. They're crazily repetitive and I simply mastered defeating them.

Regarding stat boost cores, this is Omega you have no choice but to deal with them. Everyone has access to stat boost cores, and if they aren't willing to take advantage of them, then they're ones causing their problems. I was already 95%+ in 1v1 long before stat boosting cores existed, and now that they do, I certainly will take advantage of them. I have more than enough credits and varium to abuse stat boost cores as much as I want.



kosmo -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (8/25/2014 22:04:53)

1st of all i have meeted u once in 3 months (didn t even know who u where be4 u talked about me), and winning 1 battle(probably out of luck idk) isnt "100%".

second, when u use 4 stat boost(24stat points advange, 5$ evry 60 battles) +high rank, i dont care if ur able to counter something, tht can t proove absolutly nothing.



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