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Ash -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (1/26/2015 11:02:43)
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Yay, I get to put on my "lets put things into perspective because some things are out of wack in here" hat again.
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That it was not announced or even hinted at in the Design Notes before it began.
This was more meant to be a surprise. We usually do announce wars well ahead of time but not all wars should be announced well ahead of time. Sometimes you're going to get attacked out of nowhere or your allies are going to dive headfirst into something and you aren't going to know till it's too late. This is one of the things we can try to announce a little better in the future, and this one is a valid complaint, but sometimes we are going to do things that aren't announced.
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I'm getting half as much EXP in this war as I did in the previous for the same enemies. Perhaps it's because it's the dragon doing the fighting or someone realized 6k a wave was absurd.
Exp is based on the health of the thing you're fighting and how long it takes. It's *supposed* to take two hits to kill normal monsters, depending on class. War waves are supposed to take one, have less exp, but you go through more so you earn more in the long run. DF has almost never done this correctly and it's gonna start happening. This also isn't AQ. Comparing that, two monsters there is usually a "wave" where as it can take 5, 7, sometimes 10, monsters here to do a wave. Yes we have "rare" waves but the majority of the waves you fight are non-tank, quick hit, one turn and done monsters. AQ waves take multiple turns, have tank monsters in their waves most times, and the waves can take longer than ours. That's the trade off. Ours are shorter and you get less Exp for them, dragon or not.
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Wars need to be losable more often. most wars are not.
Why? Sometimes the storyline doesn't call for it. Why should something be losable just because? If we're going to start doing things "just because" we'll start deducting money when you die in a quest or purposefully make more bosses unbeatable, even to DmK's by just slapping them with a -2,000,000 Boost nerf, just because we can. Yes it makes for more compelling storytelling and in *some* cases it works, the Void war recently being one. More often than not though if we have to make consequences for losing a war we can't tell the storyline how we want to. We have to do something we may not want to and that puts us in a corner nearly as much as you if you lose. We might start doing "well if you had lost/won" cutscenes since Ashendal can just pull you over to one where you did lose or win, but that takes Tomix actually making both and me setting up a perm area that you can go to to check. Maybe in the future.
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we need to bring back the 10+ ways to beat a wave, because that made it feel more like a war, when you have cavalry, infantry, ballistics, possible navy, and airforce
That takes more work. Yeah, I get how that sounds but just consider how much work a war in itself takes to set up. Usually we have a town, 2-3 normal quests that are unlocked and then a boss quest with heavy cut scenes now for the most part. Yes we do reuse older quest templates but we still have to do the background art, we still have to get the monsters set up in them and working right, we still have to get them linked to the war meter, which as was shown this week WE CAN'T DO ON OUR OWN, and we have to make sure it's going to work. Normally we only do one, maybe two quests, along with rewards in a week. That's all we can usually do with our current staff. You want us to not only do 3 weeks worth of work in one, but now 4, 6 or even 10. Yes I understand more ways is better which is why I pushed and got the supply quest done, on a day off, so I was working when I should have been relaxing. I know you guys don't fully understand the work that goes into doing these but we don't have gobs of free time just to do hundreds of things. We're going to *try* to do multiple ways to quest from now on but if we can't, we can't. There's no changing the fact that we're volunteers for the most part, have a life outside of DF, and do as much as we can.
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furthermore a system of donation of supplies would add to the feel of a war. for instance wood, stone, iron, and food, all being farmed and donated for the cause. creating a wpm sustained by the "other heroes of lore" not just the players
So you want us to bump up the waves incrementally over the course of the war, but at the same time you want wars to be losable? That seems counter to the first point you made. Yes I did see the part about "not just the players" in there. If you want wars to be losable you don't get help. If you want help they won't be losable and we'll consider doing stuff like that. However that's usually met with backlash as "we want to do it on our own" is usually the DF warmonger call and they get upset when we help.
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Would be nice to have a war in storyline where we literally wouldn't win, no matter how hard we try and I'm sure we would try really hard, it would get some emotional blows :D
We wouldn't do that as a war. All wars need to have a chance to win, otherwise there's no point. If we want to do something where you WILL lose it's going to be a pseudo war. No war meter, just a set of quests where you fight and after 15-20 attempts the "meter" moves but you keep getting small cutscenes and notices that you're losing and after 50 or so you just "lose". A war isn't a war in DF if you have no option to win.
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The amount of waves given should vary between the ways we win waves; The Storm War and the Lucky Day event(more shards for certain quests done) were the only ones to ever use this form of wave counting. I'm not sure if this is still able to be done due to the personal wave counter or any other behind the scenes thing we don't know about, but if it is possible, I'd love to see it re-introduced. The only issue would probably be an increase in wave totals due to the ability to win more waves.
I covered your other points earlier in my post but this in one I thought merited a response as it is something different. I honestly don't know if it's possible now. With how character page linking is done it's usually having to track 1-1 win-count and I'm not sure if it's even setup for something like this again. The fact that it was only done in two wars also suggests to me that Rolith had to do some back end muddling to get it to work and it's akin to the avatar's swapping out mid fight, "yeah we can do it but we really shouldn't again." I can check and see if it is possible and we can try and plan accordingly for the future if it is.
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