RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (Full Version)

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Dragonman -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/24/2015 19:13:59)

@Branl: Yes



Aura Knight -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/24/2015 19:51:53)

One thing I just thought of and am unsure if others mentioned it before, but it would be nice if on future wave counters, the numbers destroyed and the total waves needed to be defeated were both displayed. Where it says waves defeated on war meters, there would be two numbers. [# of waves defeated/total of waves needed to win] This way, everyone would be aware of what the true goal is so that if a meter like the one used in last war is used again, no one would be under the illusion that the war is over just because it seems the "meter" was full.



Brasca123 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/24/2015 20:20:03)

@dragonman. i guess that was a test by the staff, i did not dislike it, but i have to agree that, in a big war like this one, we could (perhaps we would not) have done better in the early stages if we knew it was a big war from the beggining
@aura knight. that would defeat the point of a hidden war metter, wouldn't it?




Aura Knight -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/24/2015 23:04:11)

Why would a war meter need to be hidden at all? Shouldn't it be known how many waves are needed to win? The way the last one looked towards the final 10 percent or so made it seem as if the war was over because the end was reached. I'm just saying if the total required waves were known, maybe more people would have fought a bit more.



The Jop -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/24/2015 23:05:44)

Agreed, I need to know where we are with a war. The last war just showed us at the castle when we had 90%, making it look like we didn't have any more progress to go.



Ash -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/24/2015 23:08:28)

In most cases how would you ever know how many forces the enemy had outright? The war meter is a game play aspect that is a benefit to players, not an actual lore based design. This war was almost entirely pushing the lore aspect. It may again be done in the future where you don't know the total amount but that's keeping with an actual "war" in the sense that the villain isn't going to sit around and let you peek and see how many troops he has at the start.



Branl -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/24/2015 23:11:50)

^But it would be very nice if they did [:D]



Aura Knight -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/24/2015 23:30:26)

Well if you send a few scouts ahead, you could take a peek at the number of forces and report back to camp.

I doubt a majority of players even like wars at all so after a while, the loss of interest in them would force a select few to fight even more than they normally would.



Brasca123 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/25/2015 6:16:32)

in this war we were the ones atacking, instead of what alwalys happens of falconreach being attacked, we did not have time to gather troops or too ask scouts to go ahead, we just blasted thorugh nayone in our way to save serenity, so we did not know about the number of enemies, the war meter works better when we're attacked, it works better with lore IMO



Shadows Morgenstern -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/25/2015 7:28:55)

Even if you wanted a war meter with a lore reason, sending scouts ahead wouldn't tell you how many waves there are, only a very rough estimate. Also, whoever is attack could have additional troops hidden, waiting to attack. I like the hidden waves, but the war meter makes sense, it just has to be EXTREMELY clear how close to finish we are.

Edit: I don't mean clear as in numbers, just in the progress meter.



Rio3678 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/25/2015 7:43:15)

quote:

The way the last one looked towards the final 10 percent or so made it seem as if the war was over because the end was reached.


To be fair that could easily be resolved by looking at the actual number of waves, when we got to 25% we knew that there were were 4 million waves, when we got to the castle, and I saw people saying the war was over, I saw that we still had 200,000 more waves to go. Maybe if there's another war like this, when we get to the point where it was like we were touching the baron's castle, the staff could put a percentage there so people who don't have access to the forums, don't think to look at the wave count, or don't feel like doing math, can know how much more they need to go. (I really hope I wasn't unintentionally too harsh there)



megakyle777 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/25/2015 7:58:50)

quote:

In most cases how would you ever know how many forces the enemy had outright? The war meter is a game play aspect that is a benefit to players, not an actual lore based design. This war was almost entirely pushing the lore aspect. It may again be done in the future where you don't know the total amount but that's keeping with an actual "war" in the sense that the villain isn't going to sit around and let you peek and see how many troops he has at the start.


Just thinking out loud here, what about a way to sort of unlock the meter/percentages? I mean you make a fair case on the while the villion is not gonna let you peak thing thing, but I counter that we send in recon to find out anyway.[;)]



Brasca123 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/25/2015 8:26:20)

kyle's idea might be a good one, i mean, we do unlock the catapult at 25%, so when we actually reach 25% we will know the enemy's total forces, so a war meter showing it to non-forum users could be helpfull, as for the lore explaining it, it could be done by saying that with the unlock of a good position to put the catapult in, we actually can see the enemy forces well and know how many they have to throw at us, of course they could still have some hidden forces, it would be interesting if they received reinforcements and our war meter went down, though, that could only be done in a big war, like the one against ebil corp



Arithonne -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/25/2015 23:51:38)

So now that I've had some time to process, I'd like to clarify my thoughts on this war:

When I say I don't like being punished for losing the war, I'm specifically referring to the curse. While I'm open to explanations for why it is not a punishment, I'm not sure there's anything that can make me feel like it is anything but. So long as getting cursed for losing wars is a thing that happens, I'm done with DF.

I feel that the staff justifying things by saying "you asked for this" is a cop-out given that what people were asking for was diverse and contradictory, and in any event the forums are only a subset of players, and not all forum users made suggestions for how to improve wars. For instance, I had never posted in this thread prior to the end of the war, and had I my suggestion would be the same as it is now. If there is a deadline for the war, it should be posted well in advance, preferably in the DN at the start of the war. Also, while 7pm serve time is much better than noon, it's really not a great end time in regards to a final push for people on mountain or pacific time. Since the WPM also seemed to have an uptick every day between 2pm - 3pm server time (AKA lunch hour in mountain time) it seems like midnight server time would be better for wars that are a close call.

I'm not angry because Serenity died. I'm fine with Pyrrhic victories. For the most part, I'm happy with the direction the staff take the storyline and I don't expect every storyline to cater to my particular taste. That said, I've never been a fan of Valtrith's storyline, and this war didn't do anything to make me want to see more of him.

The part of this war that does make me angry is that it feels, to me, like we were set up to lose. I'm not saying that it is the case, but between 4 million waves and the timing on 25% and 75% challenges... Well, I had a bad feeling about the war as soon as it became clear that it was 4 million waves, and that's why I pushed myself as hard as I did in this war. The fact that each "challenge" was met around 12 hours before the deadline doesn't make them seem particularly challenging, and the final push we would have needed if we had only just met the 75% challenge... It makes me feel like we weren't expected to win. I didn't want to lose, so I did everything I could to push for a win. Skimming the war threads made it seem like lots of other players were pushing well beyond their normal war contributions to get the win too. Honestly, while I neither expect nor require an explanation as to why the war was set at 4 millions, I would love to know the reasoning behind it, because it might end my anger to know why. Anger is not an emotion I enjoy.

Combining the anger at feeling like the war was meant to be lost (again what I feel, not necessarily what I believe to be truth - feelings are not rational) with the punishment of the curse, and I am not a happy camper. I don't think that in my case this is a wound that time can heal, and I don't want this to be the end note in my experience with DF. I'm just afraid that it might be.



Brasca123 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/26/2015 8:38:59)

@Arithonne. the curse will probably be only for this war, i don't think that after this one anyone has the same opinion they had before the war, people just wanted something meaningfull from losing and now we're getting it, the forum is not the whole of the community, but it's the only part that the staff can actually talk to, so we're the ones that can actually say what we find good or bad about the game, what we wish that would or would not happen, the curse will be temporary anyway, and is just a decrease in the BONUS stat that you can pay something (not DC) to get rid of, nothing that big, i'd say you should't quit DF, the game has a lot to offer, as someone that frequents the forum you probably know that, and about the war, i suppose it's because people wanted a meaningfull war with lots of things, it would be hard to make challenges, events and who know what else for a 1kk war, 4kk was probably the staff checking how much we could do after losing a 1kk war while being tired from other wars and faced with unusual circustances (losing the catapult for example), the game is still great, and i'm still going to play it, i suggest you do the same.



Womba -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/26/2015 12:21:33)

quote:

In most cases how would you ever know how many forces the enemy had outright? The war meter is a game play aspect that is a benefit to players, not an actual lore based design. This war was almost entirely pushing the lore aspect. It may again be done in the future where you don't know the total amount but that's keeping with an actual "war" in the sense that the villain isn't going to sit around and let you peek and see how many troops he has at the start.


Not to mention the only time we EVER got a legitimate view of the entire enemy force was way back during the Orb of Darkness saga in the Necropolis.



Arithonne -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/26/2015 13:23:22)

@ Brasca123

I appear not to have worded my previous post as clearly as I would have liked. I'll clarify.

Right now, I haven't quit DF, I'm officially on hiatus. Whether I quit permanently will depend on if I can ever stop being angry at DF. So long as DF makes me angry, I won't be playing.

The curse makes me angry. It makes me feel like I am being punished for something that I couldn't control personally (winning the war) when I did more than my fair share of waves (over 5500). I don't care what the effect of the curse is, or whether there is a way to temporarily remove it, gold or DC. So long as the curse exists I won't play DF. I might be okay with the curse if it were only applied to characters that completed less than a certain number of waves in the war, because then I feel like it would be more fair.



Brasca123 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/26/2015 13:31:04)

the curse wouldn't be good lore wise if those that actually fought harder wouldn't be punished, though i can understand your anger somewhat, well, i can't force you to play, you'll just have to run after anything you've lost i'd say, i don't think a curse should be enough of a reason to stop playing, but that's just my opinion, being punished for something you can't control can be quite annoying, but it's not like it removes the fun in the game, for me, the fun comes only from the storyline, and the storyline is still as amazing as ever



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