RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (Full Version)

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Branl -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/23/2015 15:00:03)

quote:

god of chaos: Again though, it could be that she'd die, but she would be recoverable, the fact she is now in no way able to be restored being the price of the loss instead.

But, it sounds like the whole "gone forever" thing was done to make sure the community doesn't beg that she come back.
And someone mentioned there was an error in the cutscene with The Baron mocking our victory, so I'm still kind of skeptical that we'd be able to bring her back.
Not to mention that besides Warlic, we haven't had any NPCs come back from the grave and they've certainly been killed with much less assurance of returning than Serenity.



geopetal -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/23/2015 15:09:36)

There's no error in the cutscene. "Victory" is in quotes because the player brought the cloak scrap (if they had it on them) and/or barely managed to escape. The Baron is in a place where he's confident he'll never be defeated.



Branl -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/23/2015 15:12:18)

Ah, alrighty then.
Thanks for clarifying.



David the Wanderer -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/23/2015 15:16:37)

@Aura Knight: People asked for different, more interactive wars. That was delivered through many means, including the stolen catapults. Also, remember this isn't "Players vs. Staff". The staff has no interest in making us lose a war. We could've won, and if we won things probably would've went a bit differently. We don't know exactly how, but I think it should be clear that the outcome would've been different.



Caststarter -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/23/2015 15:19:06)

Think the "victory" quote is a form of sarcasm... the type of sarcasm that is meant to mock you and reference the fact that the hero usually wins, yet did not this time. Probably meant to ask the character "will you try to keep your pride after this? Hehehehe." You know, typical villain qualities.

All in all though, I do still doubt that losing both the Bombing Run and Catapult is even a reason why the war was a lost. (And with not seeing the numbers change after doing a wave, it is a graphical glitch. Just do two waves and it will go along as normal.) As Ash cited before, WPM was HIGHER before both were even unlocked. What I do think is that players rely on the catapult too much getting the mindset that they NEED them to win any war. I do think if that, gradually mind you, their presence was decreased throughout future wars either by excluding their entire existence or removing them after a certain point (that is still certainly winnable.), then it might be possible to see that they are not needed and actually give some "flavor" to wars as many players also think that catapults do make wars stale. Especially since there were in fact past wars without catapults in the first place, even in recent memory.

Below: The power of trying to make sure you are coherent and be meaningful in your post gives the weakness of slowness. xP



Branl -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/23/2015 15:21:12)

@Cast
Geo ninja'd you... 10 minutes ago :p



Myra -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/23/2015 16:43:21)

I would like to try this again with a cooler head.

First of all, I want to say I’m sorry for the accusatory tone of my previous posts. I swear I’m usually the opposite of a drama queen.

Secondly, I want to thank geo for responding to my post. This level of involvement with the community is what puts AE miles ahead of any other gaming company I can think of, and it is what makes it so hard for me to let go.

You objected to my calling the death of Serenity a punishment, and I see now that this was really over the top. I apologize for not choosing my words more carefully. But I think it would be fair to call it a consequence of losing the war. Because there were plans for two different cutscenes, so it doesn’t seem like something that would have happened either way.

So in that respect it was really different from any other character death that happened in game so far. The life of an NPC has never before depended on the outcome of a war. Will this happen again in future wars?

It would be possible to adapt to the smaller community size by adjusting the size of wars accordingly. This time it seems to me what was done instead was trying to increase the determination of the players by giving the war more severe consequences. Is this a good idea? I don’t know, maybe it is. It was certainly requested by some. And there has been a huge spike in forum activity since Friday, so it must have made a very strong impression. But my guess is that if this happens more often, it will lose its impact.

What I wasn’t able to express clearly before, is that even if this had been a predetermined thing that would have happened even after winning the war, I would still have major issues with it.

You wrote some things about the reasons behind this plot.

quote:

Valtrith chose the best target so that he could be reformed by consuming an innocent soul, prove how evil he was, and get the hero to him so he could steal the cloak scrap all in one foul swoop.


That does sound to me like a classic case of women in refrigerators. A villain kills a female character in a really brutal way (and possibly does something degrading to her corpse) to show that he is really evil and the main character has a reason to be brooding and obsessed with revenge.

I’m not saying this trope can never be used ever under any circumstances. But I am saying it is a problematic trope, and I wish you guys would have found another way to develop the character of Valtrith.

Also, I’m not sure if this actually achieved something in terms of character development. What do we actually know about Valtrith now that we didn’t know before? There is still not much in terms of backstory or motivation. He sure demonstrated that he is evil, but that was never in question, was it? I certainly did not think of him as someone who is just socially awkward and misunderstood before this happened.

And there is also an issue with the brutality of this whole thing – and I think that is really my main problem. There have been many discussions already about the tone of the game shifting towards more serious, more mature themes. I have always been in the “sure, do more mature stuff!” camp so far. But to me, this was too much. It doesn’t fit DF. It sticks out like a sore thumb.

There is tonal shift, and then there is the tone of something just being all over the place. If the game is going to be “My little dragon: Friendship is magic” on one day and “Watch this beloved character get doom-axed in the face!” on the next, then it just doesn’t work for me anymore on a fundamental level. I cannot enjoy a work of fiction that has so little continuity in its tone, even if the individual parts are really great.

And the same thing is true for wars – they will not work for me anymore if they are focused on severe, lasting consequences instead of the fun community activity that they used to be.

So the bottom line is, I’m not angry anymore, and I’m really sorry for the things I said while I was. But at the same time, I’m even more certain now than I was on Saturday that I do not want to play DF any more after this.

It makes me so sad. I really wish we had won this one, then maybe I would have never found out what my limits are on this.



Ash -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/23/2015 16:53:16)

Not all wars will have this kind of consequence. I'd go out on a total limb and say we probably won't do anything this drastic ever again. The next one most likely won't have a consequence if you lose at all because many of the forum goers asking for it have realized that it's really not a good thing to have a war have consequences every time.

We do want to do more community based fun stuff so we'll do things like wars and scavenger hunts where you need to work together or even a "contribute to something" type deal. The main point here is we needed to get this out of the way for multiple reasons. First to advance the Baron plot so we could then move into back story as Geo mentioned in today's DN's, and to respond and give forum members what they wanted. Now we're listening again because everyone's going "WOAH, no....don't want that again" so we're going to pull back from doing horrible war ends.

We aren't able to always keep a continuity in tone from one release to the next. For example this week's quest is going to be pretty crazy, a complete and utter contrast to the previous week. We can't keep one tone because that's not possible when we need to do filler releases sometimes or tell a deep story like the Tomix saga. We can try to keep a level one but there are going to be a lot of dips and peaks where we go sad or happy.



Branl -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/23/2015 17:03:11)

@Myra
Yeah, I'm vehemently against the whole "guilt-trip players into fighting in what are supposed to be optional wars" too, as they work to pull some of the players from their social activities, as we can see from the war thread and other threads, they punish players that do ridiculous amounts of wars for factors they can't control, and they make people feel forced into doing wars even if they really don't like doing wars. But this was never a problem, as Serenity's fate was going down that way one way or another.

Whether the Baron pulled out reinforcements and would've did the ritual anyway or if the Doom Weapon's effect on Serenity would've left her a vegetable, we've been told that Serenity's fate was already sealed.

As for the "ritual", I don't think that's something the staff is looking to make things like that a stable in this game. It was Friday the 13th, they probably just wanted to spook us.
And yes, the tone of the game has gotten a bit darker, (Note: Just because Book 1 has more deaths doesn't mean it's somehow darker than Book 3), but instead of getting too mad about it, I'm going to see just how this plays out. As long as the humor of the game remains, there's still a reason for me to play Dragonfable beyond me just liking the battle system.

EDIT: Serenity wasn't really beloved, the reason why the threads blew up this much was just how she was killed. Lady Celestia's death hit players alot harder, to the point where quite a few players were using avatars and signatures with her tea set with the text: "Remember Lady C."

If Lady Celestia died in the same manner Serenity did... I can't even imagine what would've happened.



Shadows Morgenstern -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/23/2015 17:10:00)

...I really do hope that serious wars will always have a consequence. Not always something bad bad. Just something that is a fitting punishment. Obviously joke wars don't really need a punishment other than no war rewards or something... I'd actually be pretty annoyed if all wars lose consequences just because some people can't *sniff* stand *sniffle sniffle* someone getting killed off. People have been complaining that DF needs to grow up a little, and the second it shows a bit of maturity and depth, people go crazy and start crying and making 50 threads as to how you can bring back a character. Make your minds up guys.



Zork Knight -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/23/2015 17:13:20)

I don't remember so many people talking about "shock value" and "DF is getting WAY too dark to handle" when Envy forced us to kill an innocent child in order to reach him.



The Jop -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/23/2015 17:14:23)

That was offscreen, that's why.



Chaoshaper -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/23/2015 17:16:58)

@Zork: Its the difference between knowing a murder happened next door, and walking in on it. Obviously, walking in on it would be more shocking, and for you, worse.



Branl -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/23/2015 17:17:28)

@Shadows Morgenstern
At the same time, not everyone likes doing wars. Should they be punished because they don't participate in an activity they don't enjoy doing?
And on the other side of the fence, we have the warmongers, who did something ridiculous like 5k getting punished due to factors they can't control.
Then we have the whole "guilt-trip" issue and wars pulling players from their social activities to avoid consequences.

I'm not saying consequences shouldn't ever happen... But there are issues to consider that comes along with too terrible consequences.
And DF has the main storyline for the whole "grow up" thing.

@ZorkKnight
...Because it was merely plot progression and not something that happened because we lost a war? (Granted this was only because we thought this only happened because we lost.)



Zork Knight -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/23/2015 17:19:00)

Images are not the only source of shock value.

@Chaoshaper: Would it have been better if, when we reached Valtrith, he was already fully formed, proceeded to present Caitiff to us, and gloated about consuming Serenity's soul and giving her body to a ShadowReaper of Doom?

@Branl: The whole "guilt trip" or "punishment" isn't the question here. The question is that Serenity's death was too cruel and uncalled for.



Mordred -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/23/2015 18:24:18)

And if it was "too cruel and uncalled for," er, wasn't that the entire point of Valtrith's actions? I feel like at this point people are saying that villains aren't allowed to go beyond Saturday cartoon villainy, and I feel that's entirely wrong.



Chaoshaper -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/23/2015 19:19:14)

@Zork, no. I would prefer this ending over that one.

But the way you said your statement, the death of the boy was as dark and shocking as Serenity's. We never saw it happen (we didnt have to see exactly how the boy was killed), and it had to be done for the greater good of just about everything on lore. It is not as dark as failing to help one of our hero's closest friends, and watching them die, have their spirit devoured, and their body twisted and corrupted beyond recognition, all after coming so close to reaching them.



Mordred -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/23/2015 19:23:13)

@Chaos: I think being complicit in the murder of an innocent, for any reason, carries a great deal of emotional weight. Sure, you can rationalize that Envy put innocents in that position in the first place, making him ultimately responsible, and I think it's the only way to live with yourself afterwards, but you're still making the active choice to take a life. I think that trying, and falling just short, to save someone is far more noble, and less dark.



FrosticIce -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/24/2015 8:00:51)

People on this thread who disliked the most recent war cannot seem to agree upon what the primary reason they disliked about it is, which makes it difficult to address the issue with the war since some people are okay with one thing but not another.

Some people dislike it because:

they feel punished for not taking part or for not taking part "enough".

they spent a lot of time on the war and yet lost and so feel punished.

they disliked having a characters life on the line.

they disliked having a characters life on the line and we had some control over it.

they didn't mind the death but disliked the graphicness of the cutscene.

they didn't like the graphic nature of the cutscene but were okay with the dark tone.

they didn't like the dark tone at all.

Everyone seems to have things they don't mind and do. So my question is what is the primary reason that this war was disliked? I've seen conversations in this thread about how other characters deaths haven't sparked the same reaction and those who respond say that it was because of the graphic nature. Does this mean people would have been okay with this war had the cutscene not shown what happened to Serenity on screen? Or is the feeling of being punished for not recieving such a result due to a lack of activity the main reason?
I just want to understand.






Brasca123 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/24/2015 8:13:11)

i guess there isn't a primary reason, some people, like me (even if they are a really small group) liked everything about the war, some disliked one thing, some disliked others, there is no need to exist a primary reason, simply because people are different, and so have different opinions on what they dislike



Starflame13 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/24/2015 10:27:12)

FrosticIce: The thing with DF is that it's an extremely diverse community, with hundreds if not thousands of players (although not all are on the forums) who each will interpret this war, the change in story tone, and the cutscene differently. The staff get the difficulty job of juggling everyone's opinions in an attempt to make everyone happy, which they usually do a good job on.

I think that honestly, the primary reason this war is disliked is because we lost. It's hard, especially when we come so close to victory, to swallow our pride and gracefully admit defeat when as a community we are used to winning war after war. My guess it the primary reason we lost was war burnout, and not the layout of the actual war itself, so if such a style is tried again at a later date then I think it will go better for everyone.

Remember, this new style of war was an experiment for both the staff and the players. It was (I think) mostly a test to gauge how we would react to such an in-depth war and dramatic turn to the baron. Now that it's happened, and people are sharing their opinions, both players and staff will just have to keep working together until we reach something like a happy medium.

As a community, we'll never all be happy with the outcome of a war, or a finale of a quest chain, or any of the releases, because we're just too diverse for that. So the best thing we can do is enjoy the parts we like, thank the staff for their hard work, and work together to try to gradually adjust DF until we get it as close as possible to something we will all always enjoy playing and coming back to.



FrosticIce -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/24/2015 15:23:56)

@Brasca123 and Starflame13

Thanks for the responses. I definitely feel better informed.
I had already thought that the varied answers were due to varied persons, I just thought if people could think about their own reasons for disliking the most recent war in further depth, then they may realise that this war wasn't as bad as they originally thought. I had made a post a few pages back talking about how people may just be over-reacting because this is a first-time thing and that they may come to like it in time.

Just my thoughts.



Dragonman -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/24/2015 15:40:55)

I want to clarify something, the only thing I really disliked about this war is how long it took for us to learn how large it was, there are other things I don't want to happen very often, but I don't dislike them.



Branl -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/24/2015 16:22:55)

@Dragonman
Did you mean how long it took for us to learn how many waves there were?



gakorogirl -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/24/2015 16:39:30)

quote:

For example this week's quest is going to be pretty crazy, a complete and utter contrast to the previous week.


Awesome!




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