RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (Full Version)

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Dante Redorigin -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/22/2015 1:04:31)

The issue is the community is too small to reliably be able to knock a war out of the park without a ton of time and effort put in. A ton of people put in extra time this last week while a bunch of other people had work and other commitments to deal with, and sitting down for hours on end doing war waves just wasn't feasible.

Also, it's worth noting that not only do a fair number of people on the site NOT check the forums regularly, some at all I wager, to keep up to date on what went on, but the in-game set up for the war wasn't the clearest this go around either. We only had exact numbers on the overall percentage every 25%, so knowing when we need to make a big push if you don't know to check the forums is next to impossible.

Also the abrupt (and in my personal opinion, untimely or rather TOO untimely) switch from having catapults to trying to get them back from the monsters, cut most people's wave clearing abilities by half, if not three quarters. Those who don't check the forums would have no idea as to the reasoning behind that, and I'll wager more than a couple players just gave up the ghost, figuring it would be too much time and effort to try and keep warring without them.



Brasca123 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/22/2015 1:05:10)

well, i kinda think that the wars are still important to DF community, it's what shows us that, even if we do 10k waves by ourselves, it will make little difference in the final outcome, as baron dante said himself in the war thread, he did not get that crazy amount of waves due to a sense of necessity of winning, but mainly to get the defender medals and doom weapon upgrades.
my point is, you cannot take it for a given that the players that actually fight ridiculously huge amount of waves in a war actually "bored themselves to death by doing it", we war because it's fun, we can immerse ourselves in the game, roleplay, feel sad for the death of a character, but everyone knows that we're all real people in front of a computer here
nobody and i mean NOBODY will do 5k waves for the sake of the war alone, there are people that counterbreaked for the first time that are sorry for the amount of time used that was not rewarded, but telling the truth, 1001 waves in one week is pretty manageable, it should be done in 9 hours or so, but the main fun about wars, is to actually go to the forums, read what people are saying, listen to their music, contribute with your own experience, and try to make a few friends in the community, it's a team work, nothing more, nothing less, if you have RL issues and can't devote yourself to the war, it's alright, because RL always comes first, it's just how it is, and if you can't fight, someone else can do your part, that's what being a part of a community means, and that is what makes me participate in wars, that's is what made me check those 30 page long threads everyday

as for the thing about the punishment for losing, that's what the player base asked, it might've been exaggerated? perhaps, but ash himself had a bad feeling from this since the beginning, yet, having falconreach destroyed one more time so that we have some to spend our gold on is a pretty ridiculous consequence, we can do that all we want, like this, we at least feel we had a reason to fight and give it our all, within the reasonable limits of course

and well, those that do not war seriously of course have the right to access the rewards, i myself play AQ a lot more than DF, yet my participation in wars there is awfully low, and i'd hate to lose the FD ice armor i'm wanting since the lean system was created, the players that are not warmonger need the rewards as much as the warmongers do, if you ever feel you need something else because if fought more, just remember your shiny defender cannon/elemental unity defender, it's the bonus item that was made just for warmongers, something that is not needed to gameplay and yet is truly awesome.

so, overall, i think this war gave us a lot to think about, should all big wars push players this hard? what to do when the war actually falls on a bad day in the calendar (2 friday 13th in a row), should them actually be just filler releases for the sake of not tiring the community too much? should the deadlines be always on a weekend? what is the appropriate size for a war with our current community? what is the exact point in the losing punishment that makes it not to hard and not too meaningless either? should there be a way for people to help in the war without actually fighting?

i believe those are the main points that should be discussed here, there might be others that i might have missed, and i don't have the answers for those myself, what i can say is that i enjoyed this war and i'm looking forward for the next big war that might be even harder than this one, though that might be just me

battle on everyone, this community is really nice, i don't to lose any of you from those forums, stay well and let's do our best in november



megakyle777 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/22/2015 1:17:58)

Geo, if you are still awake, I'd like to say the following.

First of all, after Tomix said this was not for shock value and there is a plan, I've decided to trust you guys on this.

But I think the main difference between Serenity's death and everyone else, is that to me at least it felt like shock value for the sake of shock value. As Myra said, it felt like emotional blackmail, and when we lost it hurt. And not in a good way like some stories in DF. In the Tomix Saga for example, people were hurt, but it was okay because there was a point, a purpose if you will. But the nature of this death added with the fact we tried our best and failed made us, and me, feel llike crap.

Like I said, I was told you have a plan for this, that it's not going to me meaningless or for shock factor. That you can tell a better story this way that if Serenity had NOT been destroyed and then violated. I'm trusting you on this, but that trust is severely shaken up.



solomi123 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/22/2015 1:38:04)

@megakyle
more questions from me too, like why is it that:
- other's death: stab by sword, hit by flame, fall to their doom, etc

- Serenity's death: soul being consumed and somehow she cease to exist from all timeline in all dimension (<- also pls explain the logic to this one if you would ... or is it just something Ash said to make the "gone forever" part more absolute)



Brasca123 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/22/2015 1:58:25)

well, i can't really explain why her death was more gruesome/tragic/unreversable etc
but at least, we now have a lot of hatred for the baron accumulated, he'd better prepare a really huge army if he intends to survive now, i really want to kick his butt xD



Angry Scientist -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/22/2015 2:18:57)

I guess I'll chip in my bit (long bit). The only design element of this war that could have been better, for me, was the final progress meter. Since the percentage wasn't clearly displayed, I feel it would've been more helpful to have a zoomed in display of the castle that showed progress or lack thereof more clearly. Not necessarily entirely new art, just a larger version that didn't show the rest of the progress bar (is that entirely new art?).

In regards to never being able to get Serenity back--this is fair and right, if painful. While others may disagree, I think that it is almost always poor storytelling to kill a character off only to bring him or her back later. That is what turns the character's death into an emotional ploy. Revival cheapens a character's death by removing any lasting effect. While the cutscene was graphic and emotional, I don't think it was a ploy. It's real; it has consequence and meaning; it happened. If we could get her back, then her death would be a ploy because it caused immediate distress and pain solely for the sake of immediate distress and pain. It would be a faked death. DF is a game, but it is also a story--somewhere on the website it describes itself as a playable webcomic. Things happen in stories, and not always nice things. The storytelling in DF has gotten more nuanced over the years, and this is good. But things in (good) stories don't just unhappen.

And if she were revived, think of what that would be like for poor Serenity! To put it lightly, her final moments would be...scarring... to remember. Would you really wish that on someone just so you could have fresh bread and a smiling face again? Hitting some cosmic "undo" button so she doesn't remember would make the whole war and all the time everyone spent on it worthless. If we can just complain someone back, then why spend all that time trying to save her in the first place? That would make my time feel wasted, whereas losing didn't (I participated in a war for the first time and counterbroke).

I understand some people don't like the "hostage crisis" scenario for this war, and I understand get that. They aren't wrong. Hostage crises are really awful situations, and I could see how a war based around that could make someone feel manipulated. I don't have an answer here, and I don't have a side.

@Insane:
I've thought about this a bit before, and it has two problems. First, it would be too hard on the designers. Second, I think very few people would actually want this. For the rest of this paragraph, I'm going have a thought experiment where the designers are gods and can accomplish anything. Winning/losing a war by a little bit is very different than winning or losing by a lot, and ideally for me, this would be reflected in the outcome. However, this can't just apply to losing. If losing by a hair means the enemy gets a Pyrrhic victory, then winning by a hair means that we get a Pyrrhic victory. While I think this would be great storytelling, I also think that this is something that most of the players would NOT want. The complaints after such a victory would be along the lines of "but we won! Why are we getting punished for winning?" People would get discouraged because unless they totally destroyed a war, they'd have bad consequences. Winning wouldn't feel like winning anymore (see: Pyrrhic victory), and the rush of a final push would be to avert disaster rather than to have a last-minute glorious triumph. We could make the situation more complicated and say that if the WPM hit x level for y hours and ended in a hairsbreadth victory, then this was a rally to triumph. This would be an arbitrary decision, however, and as a result, it would upset players when it didn't happen every time. Determining where the Pyrrhic/real victory cutoff was would be a contentious issue. Also, making at least four cutscenes and defending unpopular decisions would be a major pain for the designers.



Branl -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/22/2015 5:50:30)

And for those that feel that wars are pointless now:
The staff also confirmed that this storyline was pre determined when we lost the last war, we are still being punished in the regard that Serenity's death is still our fault.



megakyle777 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/22/2015 5:52:25)

Link to confirmation?



Branl -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/22/2015 6:02:19)

Geo:
quote:

War burn out is definitely a factor. The dates for F13's this spring were... unlucky. The rest of the slated dates for this aren't as close together.

This storyline has been planned out since before the February F13 war, though, and goes through, including non-F13 dates, Summer 2016. There are alternate paths and slight deviations planned for wins and losses but it's all set up to create an interesting story.

Also, note, it's not really Baron creating Caitiff. It's the Doom weapon going for the empty vessel. It's why Valtrith takes the time to think about how the power of the cloak ties Caitiff to him
.

Actually... nevermind, it was planned before that.



geopetal -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/22/2015 6:07:20)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Branl

And for those that feel that wars are pointless now:
The staff also confirmed that this storyline was pre determined when we lost the last war, we are still being punished in the regard that Serenity's death is still our fault.


I've also stated, several times, that we had outcomes planned for both wins and losses and that Serenity's death was not a punishment.

I understand that you're upset with the outcome but putting words in my mouth and selectively choosing which of my quotes to post pretty much guarantees that the rate of dev responses will go down drastically. There's no point in having a discussion if you're not going to actually pay heed to what I've said.



megakyle777 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/22/2015 6:14:46)

We love talking with devs though Geo. It's just there have been a ton of posts both from players and devs in the last 48 hours and it's hard to keep track of everything.[:)] I know I was mad at first (Still sort of am) but when Tomix said it was not shock value for the sake of it and there was a plan, I decided to trust you guys. I think the main issue people have with it is that it seemed like exactly that and more of a "Shame if something happened to this person!" feel then fun.

But then again, we LITERALLY asked for it. We asked for more consequences in wars, we got them. And now we are complaining about it. As Ash said earlier, we need to shut up for a bit, think about this and then decide what we want.



Branl -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/22/2015 6:17:35)

@Geo
I merely misremembered what you said, as you can see by my last post.
Sorry.

It appears you misunderstand me.
I haven't been making my more recent posts because I was heartbroken Serenity's gone, I don't even care that she is. We are never given any reason to care for her other than "she's that nice lady we know." If I was actually the hero, I'd just chalk it up as the one of the millions lost and make plans to defeat The Baron. And that is good for me, because I don't personally play video games to get the feels.
My main concern was using character death to make players feel forced (guilt tripped) into participating in what are supposed to be optional wars.
You already confirmed that wasn't the case, so I'm cool with character death for the sake of plot development.



dsicarii -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/22/2015 6:19:36)

Think of it like a community-driven "choose your own adventure" book/story/game. Just because the author planned out the entire story and the many paths that could be taken, doesn't mean the reader/player/community gets to see the ones they didn't choose. It likewise doesn't mean their choices were predetermined, although some situations may or may not be weight towards one outcome over another. Just because the devs may have planned the storyline, with twists and turns, out before Feb's F13 war, doesn't mean they wrote definitively what the outcome(s) were - they left that up to the community to "choose", and we don't get to just flip a few pages back, find the other possible ending page, and see what would have happened if we'd chosen differently.



Branl -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/22/2015 6:29:17)

...Do I have to delete the post or are people going to keep ignoring my post after that one?



god of chaos -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/22/2015 7:02:29)

@Angry Scientist. The thing is, it did not work that way. While we did kind of get the percentage to 96% the loss was entirely on us. We suffered greatly for it and the Baron is now more powerful than ever. It was not a Phyrric Victory or Loss for either side. On the flip side, victories seem to be more complete victories even if we barely win. I think...

Now, while allowing a portion of the player-base to affect the story to some extent with the wars (which aren't that uncommon) might seem unfair on the rest of the players what about those who DO make severe alterations to their plans for a week to get thousands of waves done? This shows a great amount of dedication to the game, and I guess only if these players can be rewarded generously for their efforts in a way other than affecting the war outcome, then I don't see another choice.
However, IF this effort CAN be rewarded somehow else, appropriately rewarded at that, with something other than getting to decide on the plot and consequences of the war for other, not warmongering players (granted it does affect the plot TOO much, but it is still there) then by all means there should be no "gullt-tripping" as some of you put it of the other players who did not ask for this, nor wanted to participate.



Sirilidion -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/22/2015 7:35:27)

Losing Serenity feels like losing someone close in real live ;(.

I didn't that a good look at the DN's last week when I came back and only took notice of the war when it was already to late.

I am so sorry you guys, I am so sorry Serenity ;(.




Brasca123 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/22/2015 9:27:29)

i assume the rewards for your effort are the DM, they are not game breaking and were there since who knows how long, it's the incentive we receive to fight



David the Wanderer -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/22/2015 9:35:40)

Brasca has a point: in general, all wars have rewards if you fought in them, even if you lose, simply because the dropped DMs can be used to get some of the best items in the game. Add in the fact that wars are good if you want to grind gold and exp, and that if there were war challenges that were won, you get access to the rewards... Participating in a war, even if we don't win it, has its rewards.



Rio3678 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/22/2015 9:37:09)

quote:

I've also stated, several times, that we had outcomes planned for both wins and losses and that Serenity's death was not a punishment.

I understand that you're upset with the outcome but putting words in my mouth and selectively choosing which of my quotes to post pretty much guarantees that the rate of dev responses will go down drastically. There's no point in having a discussion if you're not going to actually pay heed to what I've said.


Branl's been taking ninja lessons form Ash, He Ninja'd Geo.

Right before Geo's post

quote:

Actually... nevermind, it was planned before that.



Branl -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/22/2015 9:43:25)

@David the Wanderer
The +1 items are good incentive to participate in wars for the long run. However, not everyone is interested in the infinity +1 items you get for doing them.
Those people that did thousands of waves but participated in this war fearing for Serenity if they didn't? The infinity plus one items were more like a bonus for participating in the war. That didn't stop them from being turned off from wars or even possibly the game due to feeling forced to participate in an effort that only really nets them slightly more powerful accessories they may already have.
There's a reason we lost the last war despite there only being 1 million waves.



Brasca123 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/22/2015 9:56:02)

@Branl just keep in mind that infinity +1 item is a real overstretch about the defender items, IIRC ash said that they are stronger than normal items, but do keep in mind that the defender items are pretty well balanced, it's pretty much and easy to get good item, no need to re-do a quest 10k times for a single drop, just need to fight in the war and contribute to the community... 10k times as well, but you got the idea



Branl -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/22/2015 9:59:52)

@Brasco123
That's what infinity +1 items are. They are the strongest items in the game and don't necessarily have to be game breaking.

Link removed. TvTropes links are forbidden by forum rules.
David the Wanderer



god of chaos -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/22/2015 10:04:57)

@Brasca. Max level Doom weapons however are precisely that.



Angry Scientist -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/22/2015 10:20:20)

@god of chaos

I was responding to a previous post from Insane2201:
quote:

My problem with this kind of war with "consequences" is the number of minions we beat during it doesn't matter or impact the ending at all. I mean we literally ripped through 3.8 million waves before we lost. It seems it's all or nothing thing. You either beat all the minions, but if you don't... well you're boned.


If I interpreted correctly, Insane suggested that the Baron should've had a Pyrrhic victory because we were so close. I'm all for this, but I was trying to consider the other implications--namely that we'd have to get Pyrrhic victories sometimes too. I think the all-or-nothing approach might be satisfying to more players in the long run because we still win more often than we lose, and Pyrrhic victories, well... they're supposed to suck.



god of chaos -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/22/2015 10:37:06)

@Angry Scientist. Agreed. We'd be getting lots of Phyrric Victories even if we won should we go by that. Not good now...



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