RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (Full Version)

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Branl -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:32:16)

@Geo
That's great to hear, but I'm not bothered by NPC deaths.
I'm bothered by them being tied to wars that real people have to invest themselves into
On one hand this appeals to players who want the game to have a more heavy effect on the player.
But on the other hand it drives away players that do 5k waves to have their efforts squandered, and other players who are just plain bothered by it.
It's really hard to win with this situation, but neither sides are wrong for wanting a game they can enjoy more.




Caststarter -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:34:02)

*Sigh* It was general player opinion here that wanted to have obvious, negative, and permanent consequences for losing wars instead of being a "slap to the wrist" as if there was no need to win. And trust me, most people really on the forums expressed that they want those types of consequences. But now, after seeing how it can really pan out, the majority of those who wanted those consequences, now do NOT want them due to fear of having a painful experience such like this again. Not everyone wanted them, but those people did not really went against it rather vehemently either, compared to now. The staff was simply doing, from their perspective, what the players wanted. And they did just that.

I do not think it was meant to guilttrip players entirely, just to have something players would fight for. (And about Caitiff being rather detailed, that may be just preparation in case we lost since you not want a week to wait for the ending just because we lost, now hmm? Some fine art DOES get unused much of the time.)




geopetal -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:35:54)

It's putting meaning behind the fight, Branl. The story is there to drive the reason for the fight and Ash and Verly worked really hard to add variety to the waves and how you defeated them to make it more fun to fight.




shadow dragon666 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:36:07)

So even if we won? She was gone?




Branl -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:36:41)

@Cast The problem is that the forums represents a small fraction of the playerbase as a whole.
I just now started bothering going on the forums, for example.
And I put disclaimers in a huge number of my posts that I do not in anyway blame the staff.




kingbrando15 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:37:13)

that is what i get from that no matter what we get the short end of the stick per say




geopetal -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:37:51)

There was that whole month of her being driven crazy by the Doom weapon, right?




shadow dragon666 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:40:18)

We have crazy allies and friends, could of gotten help one way or another one might think.

Though if we had 0 chance at saving her even if we won it changes things. That is IF what you said about us having 0 chance to directly change their fate which to me says even if you won she was still gonna be gone.




Branl -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:42:03)

Alright thanks, Geo that sets the minds of multiple players at ease.
I wonder if us winning would've resulted in The Baron only having time to devour part of her soul, making him not as powerful as he is now but still a credible threat, But Serenity still being wiped from existance.




The Hollow Soul -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:43:34)

I think the Doom weapon would have continued to haunt her mind and soul until she snapped even worse. Serenity tried to get help but couldn't find anyone that could help her since she didn't know what the problem was exactly, so she was probably mentally zapped when she talked to the Cultist. She never knew it was the Doom Weapon haunting her, just that she was losing her mind.




Caststarter -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:44:05)

Well Branl, in terms of communication compared to AQW, the staff kind of depends on the forums for player opinion.

And I am pretty sure there was a chance of saving Serenity. It is just that the losing option kinds of well... prevents that from happening since we took too long.




Arkste -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:44:34)

Finally finished retyping this. Some of my thoughts dissipated, but I got the bulk down.

To begin, this war was easily one of the most impressive I've encountered since I first started playing the game. I rank it up there with the Final 13th and the War at Core. When I logged on Friday night, I was genuinely surprised to see we had lost. The aspect of wars I’m going to address is how they handle efficiency and compulsion, a topic that I wanted to address some time ago, but I've been very with college and club management.

As for a description of what efficiency and compulsion actually refers to, it’s basically that you give a player a task that expends energy and then give the player a way to make the task more efficient while reducing the perceived energy output as the player puts invests in more time.

To an extent, wars do this, but I think the way they do could be altered, especially due to players like me. I’ll get to this point below.

First off, there are basically two ways that this war has created compulsion that I've separated, but they’re highly related:

1) The first way was the inclusion of a clear deadline from the onset of the war. This is something that other players asked for, and I’m very glad the staff did it. DragonFable is a bit of an oddity among games since it includes weekly releases (a more meta aspect of compulsion), so it makes sense for there to be a deadline that gives time for the staff to work on content for future releases that also won’t cause an imbalance in the release schedule.

2) Another aspect of compulsion in this war, one that has been done in wars past, is the inclusion of war challenges that provide rewards if certain conditions are met before a specified deadline. Basically, it’s just another more specified form of the deadline, but the distinction is that it offers some auxiliary win conditions for the war. It’s also an aspect of wars that I think could be altered, but I’ll address that below.

Tying these two together, we end up with a primary win condition that is the goal of the war and an auxiliary win condition that contributes to the primary win condition but provides bonuses.

For increasing player efficiency, I think that there are two basic ways you can measure this. The most obvious would be in WPM, and the other is by examining a player’s input to their output.

This war and other wars increase player efficiency by providing alternative mechanics to defeat waves, which include the Catapult, Supple Grab, and Bombing Run.

I think that the more problematic aspect of increases in player efficiency using these actions is that if you examine an individual player’s WPM, regardless of the option they choose, it will always reach an upper bound. If you examine player efficiency based on their input and output, you end up with one completed action corresponding to one completed wave, or a constant incremented value of one.

I think this is enough explanation to make sense of everything, so I’d the main problem with the mechanics of the warring system correspond to getting more players invested a war and rewarding players who invest the most while also potentially increasing the efficiency of players who invest the most/more effort.

For a description of the type player I am, I’m not very active within the community; I've come to the forums every so often, and I’m also not very invested in wars because I find them to be too monotonous. I come back for the weekly releases, and that’s about it.

For players like myself, I can still benefit from won war challenges without having contributed to a war at all, and I think that finding a way address to this could get players like myself invested in a war, potentially by changing the way efficiency works to increase it for players who go above and beyond, which would also allow them to get access to some sort of reward(s) that I cannot and also make their contribution feel more worthwhile.

I don’t know if I explained this as well I could have or if any of it is actually feasible to implement, but I’m interested in if anyone can make some sense of this and see if it could benefit wars.




Dragonknight315 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:44:35)

Guys. Look. Let's face it.

There was a chance that we would win. A GOOD chance. We almost did, too! Ash said he BELIEVED IN US. He even made a victory page! However, we didn't win. If we won, none of this would happen. The staff planed multiple story routes, and I will bet my life saying that the win result WOULD have resulted in us saving Serenity.

I am sick and tired of people blaming the staff. I get it; Everyone is depressed at this! I couldn't even sleep the night after the war. But we have to man up. We need to calm down. If you guys wanna talk this out, do it with a cool head. Don't lash out in rage in someone who gave us what we asked for.




Mordred -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:46:14)

geo said death, I'd like to point out. Perhaps if we had been able to interrupt the ritual, some part of her would have survived. Still dead, of course, but death hasn't stopped everyone on Lore. *glances at local Lite Knight Ash* As it is, she was entirely wiped out. I mean, I rather doubt that is we did arrive in time, that we'd be able to save her. It's not like we'd be catching them with their pants down. I imagine we could have damaged an artifact, or Ash could have gotten a blast of Light mixed into it, but really, the sacrifice was set to go from day one.

I for one loved the war. I certainly would like to see more wars like this in the future. Wars with meaning, and consequences. Dynamic war fronts that capture the changing flow of battle. People feel they were "cheated," despite evidence to the contrary.

Err, given the massive amount of materials one like myself would need to grind, can the war stay around for a good while? I'd like the time to grind out the 80-something Essences and Bone Shards and whatnot.




Branl -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:46:24)

@DragonKnight
Where do you see people blaming the staff?
And apparently, Serenity was going to be met with a terrible fate anyway.




shadow dragon666 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:47:49)

Dragonknight315: People aren't exactly blaming the staff, they are noting the circumstances that made this war go south compared to other wars.
Those that are blaming them, go take a cool down and come back.




kingbrando15 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:50:17)

and that there shows that everyones effort in the war really meant nothing that is an insult players that put all the work in now will find out well didnt matter anyway win or lose she was going to die, i myself am not putting blame on the devs but thats just not cool imo




shadow dragon666 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:51:43)

Brando: That would be more acceptable if it was played out better.
Tomix saga, we ALL saw it coming it was showcased and it wasn't told to us after the fact which kind of makes it better but worse in it's own right.




Branl -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:52:18)

@KingBrando
Please note that wars should be fun for players to participate in, not force them to push themselves to do inhumane amounts of waves.




Dragonknight315 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:52:58)

@Brandl I just can't believe that. I honestly think that if we would have won, we could have rescued her perfectly fine. They PLANNED this out to where it we did lose, it would be a bad fate. That's what happened I guess we will never find out because we didn't win.

@Shadow Fair enough. I've given some of my own criticisms of the war. But it seems like there is a fine line between actually giving reasons to giving excuses.


Where did you guys get the idea that she was going to die either way? I'd like to see some quote, please.




The Hollow Soul -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:53:18)

Well, Tumblrfable is sort of having massive issue with it. Not sure if they're blaming the staff though.
--


Overall, since I don't think I actually shared my thoughts on the war.

I liked it a lot, loved the evolving battlefield, losing ways to win waves, changing text, and the different war meter.

The only thing that may need to be changed is war size (but since we got 96% completed before we lost, I'm not sure if I believe the war size was the issue) or better war spacing. I know this war was planned out well in advanced so nothing could be done, but hopefully this sort of spacing doesn't happen again.




shadow dragon666 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:54:00)

Branl: 4 million is not inhumane trust me.

Was it a bit much for perhaps this one? Yes, inhumane? Lol...No not even close there. Trust me the wars of old overshadow this count by you don't wana know.


Dragonknight315: Some yes, I will agree some did that others are voicing reason and logic.

As to where go back a page and look at what Geo said to what I asked.


Hollow: Me personally I'd say it was time wise, we have normally more time in cases of 4 million waves, 1-3 days extra time in fact. This time we didn't and it did show that the extra time is a dividing factor of win or lose.




Dragonknight315 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:56:59)

@ Shadow Am I missing something? All I see is that this was a hostage situation war. In other circumstances, yes, deaths were scripted. What makes you think that this was? Why can't we actually take the staffs word at face value? Until the staff comes out with some statement that says she was going to die either way or something close to it, I just won't believe it.




kingbrando15 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:57:25)

@dragonknight315 if you go back a page where shadowdragon66 asked after geo put up npcs that have been killed how many of them we were able to change the fate geo replied with zero which means win or lose it didnt matter atleast thats how i see it. also i doubt the devs will come out and say she was going to die anyway there is already an uproar already imagine the outrage if they came out and said "yea she was going to die even if you won the war".




Branl -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:57:49)

shadowdragon666: Oh trust me, I know all about the wars of old.
I've been playing this game for nearly a decade.
And from what I remember, we had thousands of players online at that time. Now? We can't even hit a thousand anymore and 300 online is normal.
And I meant more the induvidual efforts, as I've seen players that have done 5k waves and one that even did 10k




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