RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (Full Version)

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Myra -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/21/2015 15:29:04)

quote:

Rather, wars are won by the small amounts of waves that all the thousands of DF players do when they check in to play

May I just ask: what thousands of players are we talking about here? Nowadays he highest numbers of players who are online at the same time is around 800 maybe – on a really good day. Usually it’s around half of that. Even taking into account different timezones and such, I’d be surprised if the regular player base is larger than 3000.

Let’s say there’s 4000. That would mean statistically in a war of four million, every single player would have to defeat 1000 waves. Or let’s make a really optimistic guess and say there’s 8000 players who play regularly and participate in wars. That would mean 500 waves per person to defeat a war of that size. I don’t think that is going to happen.

So yeah, I could be wrong on this, but until I see evidence of the contrary, I am pretty certain that if the usual crowd of people who fight a couple thousand waves in every war starts dropping out of wars or fighting significantly less, it will have a negative effect. We really do not have numbers we used to have.

quote:

But to think we could have saved Serenity had we won the war..... I hope somebody convinces me that I am being irrational here.


Well, it is irrational in the sense that it is an emotional response. That doesn’t make it invalid however. We do not play video game because we are logical robots. Emotions are kind of the point of games.

Speaking of which. I thought that I would calm down and get over this event as time goes on. But so far, I have only gotten angrier.

An NPC was killed off not because it was a necessary part of the storyline, but because we needed to be punished. All positive things about this war aside – to me, that part is just utterly wrong. It is basically saying “Nice NPC you got there. Would be a shame if anything happened to them.”

And somehow, that crossed a line for me that I didn’t know existed. At this point I’m not sure I will ever get over this. If I’ll ever feel the same about DF again.

I’m going on a hiatus. Maybe I will feel like coming back at some point. Maybe in November we will be discussing the next Friday 13th war in here, and maybe I’ll have to admit then that I was wrong about the size of the community and how many millions of waves they can handle, and maybe I’ll even think that I was wrong about the sudden and inexplicable turn of DF into a horror RPG.

But … I think I might be done. Actually done with the game.

For now, I’ll say goodbye community and goodbye team. Thanks for all the fish (and icecream). We had some very good times together, and I wish you well.



Adel -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 15:34:20)

Ash sometimes I think you take the word "Story driven" a lil bit to far xD But nevertheless I loved the war and had no complains about it looked like you worked yourself exra hard which might not have been that nessecary. Bit to point out when I say I want a story driven war I mean a war that has a meaning, not just "War cuz to war" cuzthat seems pointless that every Friday 13th there is a war.. for what reason? why? why friday 13? And not asking you to change text activly and remove catapults and all that as that sound and again I'm not saying you are but sometimes people DOES take things to far with the intention to mess with and show to be carefull for what you which for and later could come out that is not what people directlly ment.

Like the time you said "alright 6-10 quest" and I said "HOLD YOUR HORSES!" alright maybe not exactlly but clearly noone is asking you to overwork yourself and make 10 quests. We all know you have a rl life, I got one too. We wanted challenges, we got plenty and more than we asked for(again no complains) We lost against a 1 mil war a month ago and a month later we get a 4 mil thrown at us... that's some challange and to think that we almost did beat it had people not given up.. I do belive even though we did go faster without the catapult that those who really liked the catapult could take it anymore and gave up. I honestly got burned out already before the end but I keept going on cuz I wanted that vicotry and we where to close to just give up. (The Community made me!!! ;()

So let me sum up the important things I really wanted:

* Story as in a real reason to war why, what happend. This war gave us a reason or reason enough for a game like DF :P

*Sometimes you have to be creative "SOMETIMES" to give some variaty. You did the map good work really loved that one!

* Some people wanted a challange. Well I'v only been in three wars including this one DragonRaider which I joined by the last three days maybe. First 13th of this year. which we lost against one mil I didn't think 4 mil would ever be possibly then unless we hadn't pulled off those 1000k+ waves before the catapult for hours and I even started doubting my math there. You gave us 4 challanges on the way too 25% and 75% for shot and then later on you also removed catapult and then bombing runs. Sure nice challange but those is where it really gets over the top But honestlly I didn't mind I never liked the catapult and didn't fly much in the end anyways. even if you'd remove supplyruns I'd do footwaves... More XP anyways! You said you had to skip a few things rl to make this happend and become reality. Thank you really but BOOM did you really need to pull that and not just skip it as that was the most risky thing to do to pull away moral for many.. To me that is logical that it would do so anyways. You prolly also knew it abit too like you said. I'd prefer storyline and gameplay seperate.

*We wanted a few more options to pick from 3-4 this has never been a problem in the past I belive and you did it great now this count as gameplay don't mix it with storyline.

* We wanted conequenses and I'm happy with what you did. Maybe you should have given Ash a heroic death instead and run away with Serenity but Hey it's all just ideas and many people might even hate this other idea I just had even more. We also get cursed... well alright, hopefully we can have that curse removed at one point as I stated before we don't want to collect them and it will in the longrun make the game unenoyable at times. But that was something YOU wanted to add(correct me if I'm wrong) I just don't mind it like many others and think it's a good idea. We need this to step up our game and you shouldn't have saved us the last war maybe we would have won this one?

So points to maybe take in don't mix story telling with gameplay as you always keep healing after a few secs when getting shot in Call of Duty and many other FPS games. You always wake up in a hospital in GTA even if you drawn! You always Respawn when dying in Dragonfable cuz noone wants a onelife shot as one day you will meet a challange boss and he will have your hide if you ain't prepeard.

I would like to say thank you once again however, like many have said in the past and me too. You have gone above and beyond for this to happend, many loved it, and I did too even though I thought 4 mil was overkill at first we almost won. But do keep in mind fir next time if we lose against a 1 mil war we should not be jumping into a 4 mil one a month later(just saying) We loved the map, we enjoyed your challanges we got frustrated cuz we lost. I'm sure noone is mad at you but at the fact that people gave up when we was so close. If it was real life and I had to work hard to get something done only to have it all shatter in front of me would make me really MAD but this is a game and I take it for what it is and it was FUN anyways! The cutscen was creepy for many, I didn't mind it but if many people felt upset by it then you know what you want to avoid the next time. We as a community learned alot in this war and so should the staff.



dragon_monster -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/21/2015 15:35:39)

^Bye you were fun.



Dragonknight315 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 15:45:12)

As much as I hate to say this, I am kinda glad this war turned out the way it it. Before this war, I was a Friday only player. New quest comes out > Do it > Come back next week. And as a member of a DF clan? That's not good enough. No where near good enough.

I have met some of the greatest people in the world because of this game, many that I would take a bullet for in order to save. Granted, I am a busy person with school work and social life, but I should at least give back something to DF when DF has given me everything. I'm working on a character bio for my DF character in a story, finishing quests that I thought were too much work (I still haven't farmed 20 Rose Emblems on my single character), and I'm going to try to get to Lv80 soon.

I guess that what I am trying to say is this. This war was amazing. We were almost able to win. The staff had the best of faith in us. There are obviously some problems to work out, be it from the players, the staff, or perhaps the game itself, and I don't know exactly what to do. But I do know this.

I will keep playing DF until the end.



Adel -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 16:09:02)

@Myra - Sad to see you go Myra, We had good fun in this war so I do hope you decide to come back one day.



FrosticIce -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 16:22:23)

The most recent war had multiple ways of doing waves:

Regular Footwaves

Catapult

Supply Grab

The new Catapult Footwaves

(and for Dragon Amulet holders Bombing Run).

This gave us players multiple ways in which to contribute to the war.

Not using the catapults and having to combat the enemy while being catapulted once we got close made sense, since this was one of the few times that we were the ones attacking and not the other way around (this was made clear in the Design Notes).

Not being able to do the Bombing Run when we were very close to the enemy also made sense.

Having the Doom Merge Items Shop was helpful because the most commonly dropped item was Defender Medals.

Personally (and this is mainly just my personal opinion), I found the new Doom/Destiny weapons to be a great motivator.

The option to have guests was also good, as it helped those who needed the assistance.

A starting and ending date for the war and the fact that there would be concequences was made clear on the website itself.

I'm unhappy about losing the war and the fact that our loss resulted in the way it did however I don't understand some people's over-reactions.

People should be able to judge themselves whether or not they have warred enough during a day however if warring is getting in the way of people eating, drinking, sleeping, using the bathroom, etc. then you should stop.

Again I am unhappy with what has happened however this has now further motivated me to try harder in the next war that will have concequences.

To those of you getting very upset, the best thing to do is to take a few days break from the game and then to come back with a more clear mind. It's similar to riding a bike for the first time, you may fall and hurt yourself multiple times but eventually you get the hang of it and despite the danger of falling, you keep cycling and don't give up. What I mean is that some players may be over-reacting because it is the first time but if given enough time they may come around to these new implementations.

I don't mean anything bad these are all just my thoughts on the most recent war on and off the forums.

Love to all.



geopetal -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/21/2015 19:23:08)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Myra

Speaking of which. I thought that I would calm down and get over this event as time goes on. But so far, I have only gotten angrier.

An NPC was killed off not because it was a necessary part of the storyline, but because we needed to be punished. All positive things about this war aside – to me, that part is just utterly wrong. It is basically saying “Nice NPC you got there. Would be a shame if anything happened to them.”

And somehow, that crossed a line for me that I didn’t know existed. At this point I’m not sure I will ever get over this. If I’ll ever feel the same about DF again.



She was not killed as a punishment. Baron Valtrith needed an innocent soul in order to reform. He needed to prove, in one shot, that he was as evil as as the rest of the villains that artifacts were gathered from. Consuming her soul to reform was that act. He is, essentially, his own artifact.

Sepulchure betrayed his king, was consumed by a darkness weapon, killed people and raised undead armies.
Xan set villages and people on fire.
Sek Duat sucked the life force of his subjects for himself.
Aisha killed all the human settlements in the far North and set out to freeze the globe and kill the rest of humanity and enslave everything that wasn't an ice dragon.
Vayle served the Shadowscythe, raised undead armies and Frankensteined new soldiers.

All of them killed lots of people.

Valtrith made it personal but he also needed to get the hero there in order to get the cloak scrap (if you had recovered it) and he needed to use a target which was innocent, which wouldn't fight back, and who wouldn't question finding a random Doom weapon in their attic. That person was Serenity.


Valtrith: This time, though, I’m leaving nothing to chance. Every piece put forth for my creation belonged to a villain that rocked this planet. Villains that wrought death and destruction and had the potential to plunge this world into true darkness! This time… I will create my own evil artifact to aid in my completion!

Valtrith: Her soul wasn’t banished, @name, it was consumed in my formation! I pulled her very essence out of her, out of time, and devoured it all! All that’s left is this husk.


Valtrith chose the best target so that he could be reformed by consuming an innocent soul, prove how evil he was, and get the hero to him so he could steal the cloak scrap all in one foul swoop.



Grandpa Oz -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 19:23:26)

@Myra
quote:

Speaking of which. I thought that I would calm down and get over this event as time goes on. But so far, I have only gotten angrier.

An NPC was killed off not because it was a necessary part of the storyline, but because we needed to be punished. All positive things about this war aside – to me, that part is just utterly wrong. It is basically saying “Nice NPC you got there. Would be a shame if anything happened to them.”


Well you know, when the last war was over and the diary pages began to show up, we started to speculate on Serenity as a character, and old DNs about her amnesia and her secret (?) past came up and whatnot...
What I'm saying is, we have virtually no idea if this isn't part of a deeper plot.

Not trying to change your views, I just like to nitpick arguments :P (in the hope you still read this)


EDIT: Ok, she's just innocent. I was defeated and outsped D:



gakorogirl -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 19:30:35)

quote:

Baron Valtrith needed an innocent soul in order to reform


WELL WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY THAT EARLIER

Innocent makes loads more sense than "oh wow this is an NPC that every player sees basically once a day let's change that"
Seriously though thanks I feel strangely better about this war now.

Also, this was amazing work on the war by everybody on the staff, although the end few percents of the blood trail could've been marked a little more clearly to avoid confusion. Amazing work on Valrith's castle, and I loved the updating dialogue and war drops~

I might take a little break from dragonfable for now, it's become too dark for my taste and it's a bit of an emotional stressor. I'll stay active in the community though.



shimamura -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 19:39:47)

quote:

I might take a little break from dragonfable for now, it's become too dark for my taste and it's a bit of an emotional stressor

I've taken quite a long break from DF, and coming back just to see my favourite NPC Serenity Caitiff-ied?
Shocking indeed since the visuals and audio are rather.........graphic.



kingbrando15 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 19:41:21)

quote:

She was not killed as a punishment. Baron Valtrith needed an innocent soul in order to reform. He needed to prove, in one shot, that he was as evil as as the rest of the villains that artifacts were gathered from. Consuming her soul to reform was that act. He is, essentially, his own artifact.


iam sorry geo but that to me i a poor excuse, first off if he needed an innocent soul then he literally could have taken any random person and it would have brought the same message as to prove he was evil. using an npc that we regularly see and killing her that isnt even a punishment that is just cruel and mean not to say we get slapped with a curse anyway id say insult to injury but its injury to getting the life pretty much beaten out of you. and what really gets me is how many people are just fine with this thats what really does it for me its like no one cares(my opinion).



geopetal -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 19:59:56)

Taking any random person of the street doesn't necessarily get the attention of the hero, who Valtrith has a score to settle with and who (if they did the quest) has a piece of the cloak scrap he wants to use.



kingbrando15 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 20:09:11)

not true geo from my experience almost nothing gets by the hero when something goes wrong be it major or minor someone comes to tell the hero pretty sure the hero has saved a cat from a tree more then it has been told. sure only the important stuff we get to do but no matter the hero still hears about it. which still brings my point that serenity's death was not necessary or needed.



The Hollow Soul -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 20:13:13)

quote:

Sepulchure betrayed his king, was consumed by a darkness weapon, killed people and raised undead armies.
Xan set villages and people on fire.
Sek Duat sucked the life force of his subjects for himself.
Aisha killed all the human settlements in the far North and set out to freeze the globe and kill the rest of humanity and enslave everything that wasn't an ice dragon.
Vayle served the Shadowscythe, raised undead armies and Frankensteined new soldiers.

All of them killed lots of people.


It's easier to forget all the dark stuff in the earlier books when it doesn't help someone's argument.

It's not like we saw Artix's entire village get turned into zombies, Akriloth/Drakonnan destroy countless villages/people, Kathool almost turning us into a monster, Trey turning against his daughter, his death from Seppy, ALL the stuff Seppy did, Sabrina's and Drakonnan's torture scene, Gram's "death", all the guardians that died, Sharae's suicide for nothing scene, Frostscythe torturing a dragon to death, the torture of what happened to Alexander, and etc.*

I think the only reason people want to fight what happened in this release was because it happened to a character that was "safe" from bad things. Which no character is, if that were the case all of these storylines would be boring as heck because we would know "nothing bad can happen to so and so, no reason to worry!"


*Thanks Zork for the list.



dragon_monster -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 20:16:32)

@Geo we did not see we did not care and we did not get angry knowing that evil things are done do not pisses us of seeing evil things done really does. What can I say that is how things go.



Branl -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 20:18:03)

There's a fine line between events used purely to tell a story and events used to guilt trip players into fighting in wars.



god of chaos -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 20:20:25)

@kingbrando15. I perfectly understand that. I had the same sort of feeling during the Tomix saga, but, well... It did teach me that sometimes you can't do everything, and loss, pain and despair are around at all times.
All we can do, is to, in the words or Kamina "don't be distracted by the what-ifs, should-haves and if-onlys". It is hard for some, but moving on is the only option here.

Now, back on topic. The thing with wars is that the player-base is divided in those who participate actively and those who don't. (And those like me a bit in between. )
Which can be a bit of a problem. Is it the warmongers fault who lost the war and now people who weren't involved with it are going to suffer the consequences all the same? Or is it the fault of the non-participants? I understand that a proper divide between the two would be impossible and wrong because well.. A divided player-base is not bound to be nice. But some players are in it for the plot (me included) and this plot is, in the case of wars , semi-decided by the players themselves. (This war would be one of the few exceptions for me since i managed to participate in the final rush.) In the end there are bound to be some unsettled people by well... Developments like this. Not everyone can be pleased, but I feel that a war should at least recognize that some players aren't up to this kind of thing, and simply don't want to suffer the consequences.

Edit: Semi-ninja'd by Brandl on my second point. What is it with you people?



kingbrando15 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 20:29:14)

@god of chaos i wish it was that easy for me i really do but due to "issues" i cant i am the type of person who does go what-if should-haves and if-onlys its something that i cant help as my brother said i am not a fan/like change and i have to disagree with him a bit when it comes to some things other wise i am not a fan of it for very good reasons i guess you could say personal reasons but id rather not go into those but they are some of the reasons i cant take this turn of events and wont ever be able to.

but i am getting a bit off topic so pardon me i get a little <enter word here> when i get thrown a curve-ball i still stand by my point that no matter to problem the hero(we) are informed about it in some way and does infact do something about it weather its on screen or not.



god of chaos -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 20:30:57)

@kingbrando15. It is alright. Everyone is at their own pace.



Arkste -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 20:35:40)

To jump into the conversation here, earlier today, I was writing a post examining efficiency and compulsion in the war system's mechanics, which could possibly have contributed to why we lost this war besides player burnout. This topic also relates to what I think the biggest mechanical flaw with the war system is.

Unfortunately, I lost all my progress, and it was a lengthy post. If anyone is interested in discussing it, I could attempt to write it up again, but it would take some time. I don't believe anyone has specifically discussed efficiency and compulsion yet, since it pertains to the design component behind the war's systems rather than the narrative component.

Sorry I can't be more constructive right now. I'm still a bit disgruntled I lost all my progress, but I'll go into more detail later on if people are interested.



god of chaos -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 20:37:55)

For all that my point stands please go ahead.



Branl -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 20:38:30)

@Arkste It's fine and it definitely would be an interesting read



geopetal -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 20:39:26)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kingbrando15

not true geo from my experience almost nothing gets by the hero when something goes wrong be it major or minor someone comes to tell the hero pretty sure the hero has saved a cat from a tree more then it has been told. sure only the important stuff we get to do but no matter the hero still hears about it. which still brings my point that serenity's death was not necessary or needed.


A random traveler disappearing, a guard on patrol going into the woods wouldn't have been noticed or seemed as odd. Maybe the traveler was leaving? Maybe the guard saw something or left something behind while on patrol? Random townsperson #23, who you've never spoken to, disappearing doesn't mean the hero is going to start an entire war to go after them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Branl

There's a fine line between events used purely to tell a story and events used to guilt trip players into fighting in wars.


If we follow that line of thinking, then pretty much everything in fantasy games is a guilt trip. The entire Fire War was a guilt trip because the hero didn't save Konnan's family. Taking down Sepulchure is a guilt trip because we didn't keep the orbs safe.

If you're going to fight, if you're going to start a war, you need to have a good reason to fight. That's the huge difference between a hero and a villain. The villain does evil indiscriminately, the hero fights for a reason. That reason is the story.



shadow dragon666 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 20:43:57)

A simplified view of many peoples points it would seem.


People wanted loss to wars to have something to them, yet this was taken a bit far for the standard of the first try at this in a LONG time.

Lets compare?
Xan war, FR was burned to the floor and it took EVERYONE to pitch in and donate money to help rebuild the homes and help the people effected by it and for us to have a rally cry against Xan to take him down twice as hard next time.

Storm War: We didn't win, but we had help staving off the avatars from nuking everyone. It was a loss in all sense we likely lost people in this too, but it wasn't this level of gravity.

Popsproket war: We lost PART of this due to having to make a choice, and that was a forced choice you let X happen and Y happens or you Do A and stop Bm but X and Y happen.

This war, we were told little of things to happen if we lost. Now on top of losing someone like that in a brutal and demoralizing way we are going to be FURTHER punished by having a "Curse" placed upon us.

So yes did we want something if we lost? Yes, did we get that? Yes a curse. The issue that irks people is you killed someone in front of them when it wasn't something that was so easily shifted or built up to exactly. Wars are not mandatory, and this one is a good example of that people took part others didn't yet the outcome was not what they expected as a loss. A Curse? Okay we lost, we could get her soul back perhaps and we are cursed it's a loss it's powerful yet it's not demoralizing to the players.

People have brought up valid points, time being a factor, yes was it said on the start and before it would end at X? Yes, but that doesn't mean the other wars of similar numbers were as short as this one with as anywhere NEAR the same loss consequence. We were given shortened capacity of time, plus you're adding burn out of the same basic war twice in a row and a loss before that too.

So in a total sum up, the consequence for losing was a bit much to people. Especially knowing full well factors ahead such as burn out when the time chosen to end it was made.



Branl -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 20:44:08)

@Geo
Fair points, but the problem remains that those are all scripted events.
It is fine for us to think our Heroes are being guittripped ingame because we, the players, are still having fun playing the game, which is the point of playing games.
Tying a character's fate to the real players themselves in order to guilt trip them is not alright because at that point, it just stops being fun for most people.
Not many people like feeling forced to defeat thousands of waves of enemies.

It's like:
"Hey son, wanna play a board game?"
"I don't really like playing those."
"If you don't you're grounded! And if not enough people play with me, you still get grounded!"



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