RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (Full Version)

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kingbrando15 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 20:45:15)

true geo but random towsperson could have family friends they note said person is missing hero investigates finds out has been taken by villain hero goes to save random townsperson #23 to foil evil doers plans like the hero pretty much does on a regular basis.



geopetal -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 20:47:01)

The hero does help strangers often, yes, but they don't usually start a war to do that. Not to mention, while the hero might be willing to help a stranger, the rest of the army might not be.



god of chaos -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 20:50:25)

@shadowdragon. So when countless people die as a result of a war, specifically the destruction brought by us losing it.. Those don't count?

@kingbrando15. That is why Guardians and other forms of law enforcement or whatever term is more fitting exist? The hero cannot do anything on his own but he isn't alone in this.



shadow dragon666 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 20:51:29)

Geo: What people are hitting at was this was extremely close to home in a way. Added on to some it screams oh you do this war or you will be punished. Which is kinda what happened, we lost someone. Now on top of that demoralizing loss we are getting further punishment of a curse.

So many now are seeing you've taken a event that normally isn't mandatory and is fun to enjoy on that level, then said you do this or else you have X happen to you and Y to this person and if you don't win in Z time it auto is bad no matter what.

Not factoring in anything of the previous war being so close to this one, it being the same basic set up another FD13 war and so forth.

We've had it compared by Ash to the DR war, but we also had more days there no? With extra time we'd of won, instead we had less and now get a double negative.

Me personally I think this was a great IDEA for the war, but it was bad TIMING for the idea.


god of chaos: Do you see any of that happen in your face? Does this happen because the non-mandatory event basically becomes mandatory? Those people dying is this built into the story? Or is it shoved down your throat with no build up because X number of people wanted something?

Loss is loss it's not good, but there are different levels of it.



god of chaos -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 20:55:53)

@shadow. Not seeing it does not mean it didn't happen. The dying and loss was always there. This once it was more visible and closer to us.



kingbrando15 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 20:56:13)

may not start a war but would that stop the hero from trying with as many people he can find no, i know iam a broken record here but i have said before in other posts that life no matter who it is it could be is important and should not be taken for granted what needs to be kept in mind is that someone is out their worrying for the person missing be it their friends or family they worry for their safety am i saying we so go to war over every little detail no but should we not atleast try and help yes. if the hero just gave up because they didnt have the forces to star a real war and gave up because of that they would be much a hero now would they? a hero or the hero has shown us the they will stop at nothing to save no matter who it is even against impossible odds they will fight to bring the person home.



shadow dragon666 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 20:57:05)

God of chaos: You seem to be missing my point....So I'ma drop it. I'd say you do the same.



Branl -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 20:58:06)

@godofchaos
Here you go:

quote:

@Geo
Fair points, but the problem remains that those are all scripted events.
It is fine for us to think our Heroes are being guittripped ingame because we, the players, are still having fun playing the game, which is the point of playing games.
Tying a character's fate to the real players themselves in order to guilt trip them is not alright because at that point, it just stops being fun for most people.
Not many people like feeling forced to defeat thousands of waves of enemies.

It's like:
"Hey son, wanna play a board game?"
"I don't really like playing those."
"If you don't you're grounded! And if not enough people play with me, you still get grounded!"



Zork Knight -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:02:03)

Wars being meaningless was one of the biggest complaints earlier. And now they finally have meaning. Now they finally decide things.



god of chaos -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:03:06)

@Shadow. Alright.

@Branl. Ah, I see. While it is not fair to the players that do not want to participate, and it should be fixed somewhat, the question remains HOW?



Branl -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:03:40)

@ZorkKnight
Please read the above post.
And again, try to remember that we are gamers playing a game to have fun, not actual heroes in a real war effort.



geopetal -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:05:36)

War burn out is definitely a factor. The dates for F13's this spring were... unlucky. The rest of the slated dates for this aren't as close together.

This storyline has been planned out since before the February F13 war, though, and goes through, including non-F13 dates, Summer 2016. There are alternate paths and slight deviations planned for wins and losses but it's all set up to create an interesting story.

Also, note, it's not really Baron creating Caitiff. It's the Doom weapon going for the empty vessel. It's why Valtrith takes the time to think about how the power of the cloak ties Caitiff to him.



kingbrando15 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:07:42)

@god of chaos i did have an idea for that it wouldnt be easy but it would involve giving the players a choice either wanted how the war turned out or didnt wish for it and didnt happen or something like that, now the hard part is that it would be impossible to figure which players would be which because this could give the players that wanted the and how it turned out a way to op-out of their decision now seeing what has happened but it would be kind of a best of both worlds scenario.



shadow dragon666 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:07:42)

god of chaos: Don't make them hold such dire consequence. Is what most would say, figure it like this we lose we get a curse okay it effects us it's a negative the baddie wins. We have to deal, but this was different.



The Hollow Soul -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:10:20)

People also play this game for story. To say that wars shouldn't have a meaning if we win or lose is silly. Wars that have a story that will continue for a set amount of time and aren't for light hearted fun are mandatory to the game. If someone doesn't want to play it, that's their choice, but that doesn't change the fact that the outcome of what the staff has planned will continue regardless.

Just think what the whole entire orb saga would have been like if all the wars we fought for the orbs didn't have a win/lose situation like they did.

The Energy Orb war that we won with minutes to spare would have been pointless, Fire War would have been pointless, any war dealing with Xan would have been pointless, and etc.



shadow dragon666 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:14:40)

Hollow: The big difference is the ties of those wars to content build up, directly seen by everyone in the updates following the main story and so on. FD13 is a sub-category story now having direct impact upon the main story realm so to speak.

Cause and effect of those is there as a constant, vs this is one event that has an impact.

Also those wars were played out by a different set of players and different rules of war in a sense.



Branl -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:16:16)

@TheHollowSoul
So to sum up what your saying:
"It's fine to guilt trip players to do something they don't want to do, because the story..."

Wars being meaningless is your opinion, you can't force players to put off real life to slay thousands of waves of foes that a sizable chunk of the playerbase find unenjoyable. Turning off multiple players from the game and/or wars because of your opinion is not a good thing.
The rewards and the community banning together used to be the selling point of wars, now you want to force players into doing what they may find unenjoyable to avoid characters dying?
Okay.



geopetal -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:18:22)

Not every war is going to be a hostage situation just because part of the story for this single particular war was.



The Hollow Soul -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:21:21)

@branl, it's not like they haven't done this before.

If we would have lost the War at the Core, Pellow village would have been consumed by the void, killing everyone that couldn't get out.

DragonRose war, if we would have lost it, all those clawkins would have been imprisoned and probably killed eventually.

Fire war, if we would have lost any of those down the line, Drakonnan or Akriloth would have burned down countless more villages than they already got to.

All the wars that had Falconreach get destroyed if we lost.

The fact that people want to see this as different is because it was Serenity. I guess no named characters are fine to die if we lose wars?



kingbrando15 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:21:42)

though geo do you think thats something that players are going to risk? this war has put a bad taste in the mouths of some players, i ask again would the player or i as a player risk that the next war may or may not be similar to this one no i wont the risk is way to high imo.



Branl -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:25:58)

@Geo
I never thought it was.
But that doesn't change the fact that players that don't like wars to them being repetitive are feeling forced by the hostage situation that happened to participate in wars. Thier effort then gets thrown in the garbage due to outside factors and now they suffer dire consequences.
As a side note, don't expect the same effort the players put into this war in the next war, as this war has caused multiple players to either vow not to participate in wars, go on hiatus from the game, or quit the game period.

@TheHallowSoul
That was when we had the numbers to support war efforts like that.
With the few number of players we have now, the warmongers need to do more and more waves to the point that it pushes aside thier social lives, and in the end they still get punished because we can't support wars like that.



geopetal -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:27:12)

You can count the number of named major NPCs that have died on one hand. Demento, Celestia, Tomix, Serenity. It's not something that has ever, or will ever, happen lightly.



shadow dragon666 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:28:41)

How many of those were we directly able to change the fate of?



kingbrando15 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:31:10)

@shadowdragon666 i count only one so far.



geopetal -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 21:31:56)

Zero.



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