RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread

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Miran -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/21/2015 4:54:06)
I think the pace and implementation of this war has been amazing. The hard work the DF Team put in really shows, and while not every war should (or can) be so elaborate, it was impressive, refreshing, and sometimes terrifying. We've learned that nothing is sacred, nothing's a given, and that we'll get what we ask for - not necessarily what we wish for. [;)] The only difference between the last two wars and earlier wars is the placement of the deadline. On one hand I'm happy that it was 7pm this time instead of noon, on the other hand I still think friday deadlines are tricky. The War at the Core took longer than a week, and the Dragon Rider War boosted the same number of waves as this one IIRC, but quote: The war itself will end on Monday, at 6pm EST! as announced by Geopetal here In fact, the more I think back to the last 2-3 years of warring, the more wars I remember that had their deadlines on Saturday or Sunday. Starting into the last day of the war early, without school or work to take care of certainly makes for more refreshed Warmongers. I don't mean to nag or grasp for straws, I just think it's something worth considering if possible. I'm sure there have been good reasons for the timing of the deadline, but it can't hurt to give a counterpoint now that we have the time to look back on wars past and present and have seen the requested (often vehemently so) changes in practice. There's so much I like about this war - the evil surprises (and us rallying), the map progess (although a war meter seems to have some advantages on the last 10-20%), the variety, the cutscenes that never cease to impress shudder, goodies and a way to farm for upgrades while still aiding the war... [:)] I must admit, I went into this war feeling burned-out, but I got really motivated right from the start. (3405 waves and a lot of posts are proof of that.) Once again, thank you very much for providing us with an unforgettable war, Ash. We did our best, and, clearly, so did you!

s_venom -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/21/2015 4:59:55)
Myra: I agree. The problem with this end that it was on our head. And yet so many people have gave their all for it. The deadline was, in my opinion placed at a problematic time for most players. Which may be the reason for the abysmal WPM near the end. I loved this war very much, I just think that this one aspect should have been thought a bit more.

Arthur Glacier -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/21/2015 5:16:09)
I agree with Miran. This was a very good release. I enjoyed taking part in this war a lot. There were so many ways to take down enemies. I had a kind of grim satisfaction, when the catapults were lost - maybe because they are my least favourite ways of fighting waves. My only complain is the deadline. As for the results, we won every % challenge but lost in the end. It's somehow ironic. Win all the battles but lose the war. Anyway, it was a nice piece of good work. You have my respect.

Sakurai the Cursed -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/21/2015 9:51:16)
quote: Maybe it’s my attitude. If I end up feeling this when I care a lot about the outcome of a war, maybe I should just care less. Fight as much as I like, but not to a point where I feel tired of it. But if everyone adopts this attitude, and the demands of wars stay the same, we are not going to win anymore. ... I can’t speak for everyone, but by now I can say it definitely wasn’t a good amount for me. It was an amount that made me feel overburdened and pressured into fighting until I didn’t enjoy it anymore. I felt like I would let the community down if I did not give it all I had, and when we lost it felt like all this effort was for nothing. And there was a lot of similar sentiment in the war thread – look at the posts in the last 24 hours before the deadline. Yes, we came close to winning – but at the price of many players who had fought very hard losing their enjoyment and possibly their motivation for future wars. I know that when the next war comes around, I will not do this again. I won’t lose sleep over wars any more, in the literal and figurative sense. I will join when I have some free time, and fight 50-100 waves per day – maybe a bit more if I have a personal goal like a level-up or an item that requires resources dropping from the war. But if it starts to look bad, I will NOT put in extra time and effort. Before I would have frowned at this attitude – but I have to find a way to keep wars enjoyable for me personally. Because if I don’t enjoy them anymore, I will eventually stop participating altogether and that would be all the more damaging to our chances of winning. The thing is, I don't think the bolded assessment is at all correct. You and I and other dedicated people who push themselves to do lots of waves (though personally I don't do things like lose sleep; I've always stopped when I get tired of it) are not the people who win wars. I would be willing to bet that if you added up the waves of every person who posted in the war thread, it would amount to less than 2%... I personally got well over 10k waves this war, truly a ridiculous amount, yet it's less than 0.3% of the total and most people posting didn't even get near 1,000. Rather, wars are won by the small amounts of waves that all the thousands of DF players do when they check in to play, 90% of which probably don't even use the forums so had no personal stake in this as warmongers. In short, and to be very blunt, you and I don't matter in that regard, and that fact is why I don't - and nobody should, really - push myself so hard and feel like the entire thing rests on me contributing my piddling amount of waves. And I really don't think that the setup of the war, the stealing of wave methods, or anything of the sort is the cause of our loss. In fact, I think this was the best war we've ever had, loss notwithstanding; even the bad ending was just fantastic in my opinion. Because of the above point though, I think that in addition to possible burnout there is one clear reason that we lost: the specific time of the deadline, in that it cut off the majority of that Friday evening. As can be seen in pretty much every war ever, Friday nights and all day on Saturday and Sunday are when progress really happens; it's when the average DF player is off work/school/whatever and has some free time to go play that game they like. The same is true on weekday evenings, but to nowhere near the same extent. So, essentially, each Friday evening or Saturday or Sunday is worth much more than 1 weeknight/day, and taking away one of those is going to be very detrimental, especially on the last day as you're essentially removing the chance for most players to really get in and do the last-minute rush. It seems clear from the speeds we had at some points of the war that with even a couple more hours we would have won, and as some have said compared to previous wars it would've been no mean feat. I don't, of course, think it should've been extended at all once the initial deadline was set as that would cheapen it, but I do think it's something to keep in mind for the future.

Azan -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/21/2015 10:14:00)
One thing we clearly saw in this war was the lack of our legendary final push. Normally we reach new heights and shoot our wpm in the 1500-2500. This time? We did 250-300. If there was a final push, we would've won this. Barely, yes, but it'd be a victory. So, I thought about it. Why wasn't there a final push? I think there are two reasons: 1) The deadline itself, though set at a better time than noon, was still too early. The War at the Core deadline was midnight. The Full Moon was midnight. The 13th 13th, Frostval the 13th were at midnight, if I recall correctly. We won all those. You can say, but what difference does five hours make? But if we had them, they would've been crucial because these were the beginnning of the weekend and stuff and more people could've joined in around 7-8-9 PM to help. Plus, let's admit, for a ritual that sinister, it would've been logical for the Baron to do this at midnight. :P 2) That one comes from the playerbase itself. We still have a core of heavy warmongers fighting and crushing every wave they can. But let's admit, our core of warmongers is small. Probably no more than 100-300 dedicated players. 100-300 players can not win 4 million waves alone. Too much on our shoulders. Addition, for example, Miran, Myra and Baron Dante. That's 13 800 waves or something like that? For three people to achieve that, it's sure mindblowing, but it represents a third of 1%. The war is too big for the warmongering core to carry it alone. The static playerbase that usually comes in for the first few hours and the last few ones wasn't there for the usual final push. So we tried to push alone and we failed. That's as simple as that. I wish I could carry the war on my shoulders. But, as Myra pointed out, I have a life outside of DF and I won't destroy it for the sake of a few hundredths more waves. Our warmongering core is as awesome as it was, but it's too small to carry alone big wars like that.

Alpha Centipede -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/21/2015 10:26:11)
I wholly agree with Azan's viewpoint. Even though I couldn't be there in the final hours of the war, when I left, the morale seemed to be low, and quite a lot of us were frankly burnt out from trying to push the war meter up against the falling wpm. If the deadline for the war was made, say, 2 hours longer, I think we would have won. I personally think that it's the timing that threw the warmongering playerbase off, and that would explain the lack of a final rush too. Of course, this is just my opinion and does not reflect the views of the entire playerbase. At least it's good that the staff has something planned out for this. I'll be looking forward to it.

gakorogirl -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/21/2015 10:27:22)
I think putting the war meter up again will help- a lot of people probably did think there were only a few minutes or something left before we got to 100%, since the dots were already at the castle.

Scytherea -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/21/2015 10:58:33)
The March 13th war actually incorporated a ton of player suggestions and had something for everyone. Hats off the DF staff for every single thing. 1. There was fair warning and very distinct mention of the deadline. 2. There were incentives at various levels. First off, the stakes were higher for many of us, what with Serenity being at the centre of the story. Secondly, there were numerous rewards etc. 3. I liked the progression of the war- how it evolved with time and to be fair, things like stolen catapults and inability to do aerial strikes were explained rationally. Furthermore, we had several ways to participate, so the war never got monotonous. And thats just the in-game aspects. When I think of all the effort the staff (volunteers, all of them, not paid full-time team) had to put in planning and execution, I cannot help but be filled with admiration and pride for them. 4. We have complained at length about the Baron being not well-developed or ferocious enough or something on those lines. Well, this war has bridged that gap significantly. I agree, there's a lot more to be said and done, but I think the Baron's character evolved quite a few shades through this war, IMO. However, I have some issues with this war, and here they are: 1. As it has been stated elsewhere, this was not the first time that we encountered brutality and death of a beloved NPC. However, I really, really hate to think that Serenity's life depended on our victory. I mean, in the Ravenloss book 3 saga, Tomix was gonna leave us no matter what the outcome. That dulled the pain somewhat. But to think we could have saved Serenity had we won the war..... I hope somebody convinces me that I am being irrational here. 2. Okay, maybe what happened to Serenity was necessary for the development of the story. But did she have to be dealt with so brutally? Could she not be put in a state of suspended animation, or at least allowed to die with dignity? 3. Finally, Caitiff. The art and graphics are beautiful in a macabre way, but it hurts that the Thing still has serenity's face. Its like, everytime I look at it, I will think of how we failed Serenity. Of course, this is just my personal opinion. Overall, the staff as usual outdid themselves, as did the players. We all put an amazing effort. Now, its time to move on and deal with the consequences, and pray that this is the last NPC we lose.

Arithonne -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/21/2015 13:08:11)
After sleeping on it, I'm still blindingly angry, and I find myself agreeing with Myra's further sentiments. I don't want wars to any consequences what-so-ever. DF is a single player game with these wars that a community effort. Unless we start having micro wars, no single player's contribution is ever going to be anything other that negligible in the grand scheme of things. Heaping consequences on players for something that is outside of their individual control is not a game, it's an abusive relationship. Right now I'm too angry at DF to want to log in and play. The stupid curse we're going to get for losing this war? Not likely to make that anger go away, especially as it will be a daily reminder that I'm being punished for something I can't control. Watch me deal with that by never logging in so I don't have to be reminded. Contribute to future wars? Sure. Push my real life aside temporarily to counterbreak multiple characters? Why bother? Someone else can do my 0.1% of the war. This war was great, truly an above and beyond effort on the part of the staff and the players. Right up until the part where it became blindingly obvious that no matter how hard I push myself, my contribution doesn't matter.

Ash -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/21/2015 13:17:09)
Then let me respond. Now that the forum group pushing for all this got what they wanted, do you all want to take a week or so, calm down, de-stress, and re-evaluate what you all actually want now? I'd suggest that yes, you do exactly that. I can say with almost certainty that most everyone that was clamoring for something different has a somewhat different tune now. I know for a fact that Kyle, the one who started this whole thread, probably has changed his mind on a few of the points. I knew going into this thread from the very start after reading several of your initial comments and as the thread progressed what would happen when we gave it to you. I tried to point several things out and to go, "guys...maybe not..." but it took actually experiencing it to understand. Take a break because it was something over the top and not at all pleasant for most people. After that break come back and give us a revised list of things you'd like to see keeping in mind everything that happened, the ending, the workload on us, and how you as players want a war to play out.

Caststarter -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/21/2015 13:21:48)
...Well this is going to be a odd contribution on my part. Logically speaking, in ones point of view, despite putting considerable effort where you still lose, all the effort was for naught. Since surely, losing one person from putting large amounts of effort is negligible. Except here is the thing. Once you start totaling the entire amount of people who has this mentality, which seems it is becoming rather large by the look of things, then it becomes truly impossible to accomplish ANY war. Since no one is going to put out the reasonable amount of effort they can must. The key word here however, is reasonable. Losing sleep or not eating just to do waves, at least to me, is unreasonable. For if there is one thing I think the community actually lost is the idea that wars, in their core, is to have the community gather up and have a grand good time. Which believe it or not, I actually was in fact worried once people actually wanted hard consequences if we lose wars because by doing so, you switch to a mentality that you are doing this so nothing bad happens, rather treating it as a way to relax from a stressful day. And if you do lose, you think all your effort was for naught instead of going "we lost but at least I had fun trying to reach a goal all of us wanted to achieve." Where if you ask me, that is what wars are suppose to be about. To have fun with others. So, if the ideas of the recent war were to come to play, but instead this time we all try to do this for fun and work together as a community where we want to achieve a common goal, only stopping when we need to rest or do something important, then I am sure that the WPM would actually be much better where it does not feel like it is a chore which to the casual player, that is not good at all. .. Orrrr Ash can actually beat me to the point I was trying to make...

solomi123 -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/21/2015 13:24:30)
Nope, a week is too long so I'll start mine now [:)] - 1 week deadline war: small one, at best 3 million (since we can't beat 4 even though it's such an awesome war) and lets not forget prize - long war: + long deadline (2-3 weeks) + Different mechanics and updated dialogue like this war (since it's 2-3 weeks I'm sure you could pull it off) + More prize - last and definitely not least: a fun war motivation where we storm into the enemies laughing while acknowledge the seriousness of the threat instead of being guilt-trip into a war

megakyle777 -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/21/2015 13:48:43)
Okay, yeah, I regret making this thread. But keep in mind Ash, all I wanted to do, my ONLY intention with this thread, was to make wars fun. What I have done is the opposite of that. I did this. Me and me alone. ...I'm...I'm gonna go suffer a RL Heroic BSoD now. For reals too. Don't mind me.[&:]

The ErosionSeeker -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/21/2015 14:02:18)
I think a very big thing to look at is that for every February F13, there is almost always a March F13 due to February having 28 days. Burnout is inevitable, and many people have felt that it is now less of a community thing and has become a chore. Even though WPM was sustained before and after Catapults disappeared at 71%, what was severely diminished was the potential WPM. Catapult at best is 6-7, while no other method could manage beyond 3 WPM. Even though the numbers remained high for some time, they were unable to go higher not because of lack of involvement, but because the resources were just not there. Additionally, I'd like to say how 7pm was pretty arbitrary and the ritual would've made more sense at midnight, but that's just sour grapes at this point.

Ash -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/21/2015 14:07:17)
How do you explain, as I've already said quote: You keep mentioning the catapult and ignored the fact I pointed out you had as high and even HIGHER WPM without them. Why are you still holding on to that when it obviously did not have a large contributing factor? Before the catapults were unlocked you had an amazing WPM. After you lost them, you still had an amazing WPM and higher than you ever had WITH them. Again, the facts do not support your claim. You may have a 6-7 WPM but that doesn't mean everyone does. It was even stated in the various war threads that others found it faster to do the supply run or even foot waves as doomknights. There is no factual evidence provided that is backed up in any fashion based on this war that the catapults are the end all be all "we need this to win". It's not there no matter how hard you try to force that square peg into the round hole. I will, as I also already said, accept the burnout reasoning. The ending time was not arbitrary. I chose that because it. - Gave Tomix time to animate the scene. It took him a little bit longer than normal but that was due to him having to create a few things from total scratch. - Gave people who don't normally stay up till Midnight time to finish the war and see if their efforts were rewarded. Some people do still have bed times, midnight most certainly is past that. Some people also have work, even on the weekends. - Gave you an actual hard point to work for. You all are finding every reason in the book that you lost, besides the actual one. You were burned out. Not only from the bunched up wars but also from the fact that we pushed you harder than normal. If you did not have the Feb13th war you would have made it. Nothing else is backed up by facts from looking at the numbers and it's all "well if you had". If I hadn't given you all the war you wanted you'd be complaining how I ignored you. Keep complaining about things if you want but unless you can back it up I'm not accepting it.

kingbrando15 -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/21/2015 14:13:24)
sorry ash but as stated before and i will continue to state this is what some people wanted but not myself and probably alot others as well wanted. taking a break may be good for some but for me after this something i never thought about wanting i cant play anymore i lost the will to play. the community got what they wanted and thats fine for them but for me this is something that has been forced on me its like going to the store ans seeing something you always wanted going to buy it and everyone stopping you ripping it away from you and telling you to buy something else something that you hate just because they think its better while throwing the other thing away in the trash and shoving to the check out and taking your money and paying for the thing for you and shoving out the door unable to ever return it. thats how i feel right now the community is telling me how to live my life and i am not cool with that, i dont mean to be mean but i am on the brink of tears still so i say fair well to the game i once loved and even though i am very heart broken i wish ash and the rest of devs well i may still snoop around the forums but i wont be playing anymore.[:(]

megakyle777 -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/21/2015 14:18:02)
Trust me, I didn't want this. i wanted to make wars more fun. I did not want this. And yet it's because of me and this thread it exists.

Branl -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/21/2015 14:25:07)
@Ash You make a reasonable point, and I'm sure there have been many changed minds after the events of this war. @Solomi123 Making a war count based on this war is not the way to go. The community had to be guilt tripped in order to almost win a 4kk war. Last war was only 1kk and we still managed to lose. This is outright ignoring how discouraged many players have become from this war. Here are my thoghts on this war: 1) We may just have to accept that this community cannot handle wars of this magnitude. The fact the community had to be guilt tripped into this reinforces this point. Being guilt tripped into doing wars is not fun, least of all considering wars were more for gathering the community together to socialize and enjoy slaying than making players feel forced into doing ridiculous amounts of waves. At it's peak this game has 600 players online at most. Even if they were on all the time everyone would had to have done 6700 waves to win this war. Most of the time, only 300 players are online and not every single one of them put up a war effort because wars are not everyone's cup of tea. These players shouldn't feel forced to do something they don't like to avoid consequences. 2) The harsh punishments may have to be looked at. Yeah, having Serenity's life be in jeapordy was a great motivator to have the playerbase actually put up a war effort. But for those that put in thousands of waves into this war, being punished because this community doesn't have the numbers to support big wars works more as a demotivator than a motivator. People have put thier social lives aside to get thousands of waves done and that is not healthy. Going back to the punishments, having a character's fate be decided by wars has a good side and a bad side. The satisfaction of saving a character if we win can make the player feel like they really saved an innocent's life. On the other hand, a loss would only demotivate most players from participating in future wars as one can see from all of the threads you can find on this war. It just works as a giant guilt trip to get players to cast away their social lives in order to find out that their war effort in the long run did not matter. It didn't matter if you did 1 wave or 10,000, the end result is that the character is dead and there is nothing you can do about it. 3) We need to look at who exactly is dying. And here is a major concern of mine. Deaths like Tomix's and Lady Celestia's worked to emotionally invest players into the storyline and in Lady C's case, give them more of a reason to want to defeat the ultimate evil. In Serenity's case, it was just her life being put in danger for the sake of being put in danger. She had no stake in the war against evil. She did not directly oppose the forces of evil. So her being put in danger just feels shoehorned in. There are better people to use to have storylines like this and the bubbly innkeeper with no significance to the storyline is not one of those people. The fact that Serenity likely could've either been rescued or brought back had we won reinforces my point that she was put in danger for the sake of being put in danger. (Or in this case, appeasing the very few warmongers we have that asked for this) 4) Putting off making win/loss cutscenes for one or two days is not a big deal if it means everyone gets to participate in the final push. Those are my current thoughts on this and are subject to change at any time.

Caststarter -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/21/2015 14:36:39)
Now now now now, do not put the blame on yourself, Mega. At the very least you were trying to suggest some things that, to the entire community, actually wanted so they can participate more. (Even though I had the same exact mindset as Ash had with the suggestions...) I think the big, BIG problem everyone here has is that many people kind of have too high of an expectation despite the staff being mostly volunteers and this being a flash game. And as Ash kind of pointed out, it took this very event for everyone to find out that they actually do NOT want some of the things they requested. (I honestly think we did not needed the deadline flat-out said but that may just be me.) I do think nothing much had to be changed. And even then, I do not blame the lost of the catapult or the bombing run to be the true reason why we lost. I do not think it was unclear that the war was unfinished, what not the number obviously showing it was not, nor do I think that the war being stale was the problem. What I do think was the problem which Ash already pointed out was burnout but also people wanting to radically change the mindset what made wars enjoyable: The community just having a good time. Above: One can say that Serenity being in danger kind of beings the point of where you take things for granted and never appreciate them until they are forcibly taken from you. I am pretty sure that Celestia was of the same player opinion during the Final 13th compared to Serenity in this war. Difference being was that Celestia was kind of planned to go "kaput." Except who else would the Baron take aside from Serenity? Serenity, aside from the player, is the only NPC in the entire game to be around the Doom weapons 24/7 and that is because she is always in the inn. All in all... she might be the only reasonable person to be taken.

megakyle777 -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/21/2015 14:39:52)
I dunno man, all i wanted to do was improve wars. I still think a few ideas are viable, since Ash said the main difference between different war types was the meter look and the wave count. But had I known this would be the result, that I'd not only destroy wars for everyone but get a decent NPC killed, I'd have never have made it.

kingbrando15 -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/21/2015 14:46:00)
@megakyle77 you cant blame yourself for what people suggest there is people at fault but to me you are not one of them =).

Dragonman -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/21/2015 14:46:45)
I still say that if there is a deadline it should be announced in public beforehand, or at the latest, when the war starts. That way it isn't sprung on us and surprises us. And as I stated in the War thread moments after we lost, I felt this war was unfair. I didn't like this war from the moment it was released, and at the same time, I loved it. I still feel that way. I stand behind my biggest point from the beginning of the thread though, Wars need to be announced beforehand (this one was so that wasn't a problem). If they aren't, they just plain aren't fun for me (like the Dragonrider war).

Rio3678 -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/21/2015 14:52:22)
quote: After that break come back and give us a revised list of things you'd like to see keeping in mind everything that happened, the ending, the workload on us, and how you as players want a war to play out. I shall use this break to do farming.

Miran -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/21/2015 15:17:47)
@Dragonman: Yep, the deadline was stated right at the start, both here on the forums and in the Book of Lore. Which I am still squeeingly happy about. I dearly, dearly hope the DF team will keep doing it this way. Getting people -not just the regular forumites but all players - into things and keeping them in the loop is paramount. gives thumbs up sign with fingers AND toes (The changing dialogue as the war progressed was the cherry on top, just beautiful!) Ash, I agree with all of your points except the deadline date. The time of day is right, just the day itself is a hurdle, and in my opinion, a greater one than you suspect. Friday is release day, true, but wars are always a bit outside the norm, and perhaps the extra day(s) with a weekend finish will give poor Tomix a bit more rest as well. If you disagree, then nothing I can say will make you reconsider. If you're willing to take what Azan and I pointed out (backed with data from previous wars) into account, just give it a try when possible. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it would be nice to have certainty in either case. And with that I'm backing out of this discussion. There was so much done well in this war that it'd be sad to let the criticism take center stage. [:)]

Branl -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/21/2015 15:25:27)
@Caststarter Why exactly does her being around the doom weapons make her the only choice for a vessel? And to me, the main difference between the two is that Serenity's death is just one big punishment in the long run. Celestia dying was sad, but she did have a bigger stake in this, being the one who helped us train our dragons and all that. Serenity did what? Give us free food? Not to mention how insignificant Serenity was to the story overall.

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